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Posted: 1/16/2006 9:34:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:34:25 PM EDT by Snaps]
I was just at HKpro and there's a headline that HK is recalling all uppers sold to civilians claming they were sold under false pretenses but the link to th story is dead.... I tried searching HK on here but nothing came up about it..

I've also seen on here that they're supposed to start selling ot the public but that doesnt' seem right after reading thsi...

so does anybody know the actual story here? THe dead link is driving me nuts now
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:43:05 PM EDT
One of the reasons HK doesn't get any of my money. Doesn't suprise me.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:49:53 PM EDT
Old news but I can't remember shit about it now
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:20:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
Old news but I can't remember shit about it now



how on earth did i miss that??
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:22:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Snaps:

Originally Posted By twonami:
Old news but I can't remember shit about it now



how on earth did i miss that??



it was discussed here in lentgh sometimeago over and over on s everal threads.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:26:45 PM EDT
hrm.. wonder if it was when i was moving.. i was offline for awhile but I really don't know how I coulda missed that... I like HK stuff, I'd think I would have noticed that
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:38:32 PM EDT
I'd love to have one of those 416 uppers, just so I could tell HK to go F*ck themselves.


Really, it's the simple things in life that are the most rewarding...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:56:54 PM EDT
I would let them buy it back for the price I paid plus a new LW upper.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:53:49 AM EDT
If the upper ain't stolen, HK has no legal standing.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:19:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 5:24:55 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Short version:

A small number of HK416 uppers imported for a cancelled LEO/Military order were purchased and sold off on the civilian market. The ATF has since deemed the upper kits perfectly legal, although most of the Internet chatter had them beating down doors to recover them. This was 100% incorrect. HK did release a statement that they wanted the uppers back, but they made no attempt to do so. Just goes to prove you should only believe about 20% of what you read on the Internet.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:17:47 AM EDT
Soooo...

If you would happen to have one [legally purchased]....and HK would know about it, would it be possible for them to get the ATF brownie hounds at your door and confiscate the upper? Or would you be able to give HK ze finger and say "Sure...you can have it back...for three million $" (I am not familiar with US laws, so that why I'm asking)
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:26:22 AM EDT
HK doesnt determine what is legal or illegal. Unless they can give the law being violated, enjoy your uppers if you have em
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:01:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 10:02:26 AM EDT by eodinert]
As I recall, the issue was that on the form 6, they said they were for .gov, not civilian consumption. I believe HK was concerned that since they did not go to the customer declared on the form 6, that they would be scruitinized by the ATF for importing them under bogus pretense.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:58:27 AM EDT
Colt and HK- fuck em'!!!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:32:08 AM EDT
In addition to the form 6 (nonsporting imports, etc) issues, you also have 922(r) to contend with. By my count a 416 upper in combination with an imported magazine would be a 922(r) violation.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:41:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 11:41:56 AM EDT by Lon_Moer]

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
In addition to the form 6 (nonsporting imports, etc) issues, you also have 922(r) to contend with. By my count a 416 upper in combination with an imported magazine would be a 922(r) violation.


No 922(r) with ARs
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:50:16 AM EDT
Maybe a few of you missed this information, but the uppers have already been deemed perfectly legal. You can remove your tin foil hat's now.

It's safe to come out.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:51:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
In addition to the form 6 (nonsporting imports, etc) issues, you also have 922(r) to contend with. By my count a 416 upper in combination with an imported magazine would be a 922(r) violation.



I believe that law only applies to firearms, which an upper is not. It's an upper. The lower is the firearm. Am I right on that, or have I been misunderstanding it all this time?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:39:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Short version:

A small number of HK416 uppers imported for a canceled LEO/Military order were purchased and sold off on the civilian market. The ATF has since deemed the upper kits perfectly legal, although most of the Internet chatter had them beating down doors to recover them. This was 100% incorrect. HK did release a statement that they wanted the uppers back, but they made no attempt to do so. Just goes to prove you should only believe about 20% of what you read on the Internet.




Dinger, IIRC, HK was here (or on the net somewhere) actively seeking return of the aforementioned uppers.

That is making an effort to get them back.

Did they kick any doors down...............I doubt it.

But they did make the gesture public to see if a warning shot would get it done.

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:45:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 12:46:32 PM EDT by Gamma762]

Originally Posted By theWalrus:

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
In addition to the form 6 (nonsporting imports, etc) issues, you also have 922(r) to contend with. By my count a 416 upper in combination with an imported magazine would be a 922(r) violation.



I believe that law only applies to firearms, which an upper is not. It's an upper. The lower is the firearm. Am I right on that, or have I been misunderstanding it all this time?


Are you just going to put it under glass for display? Once you attach it to a lower it becomes part of the firearm. If you insert an imported magazine the total 922r imported parts count would be 11 (by my count). 8 and still legal as long as you use US magazines.

The AR crowd isn't used to thinking about 922r. Once you start considering importing entire upper groups it will have to be considered. Also consider that Colt is using some Diemaco (Colt Canada) parts now as well... put an imported upper on a new Colt lower and you could be in violation.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:58:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
In addition to the form 6 (nonsporting imports, etc) issues, you also have 922(r) to contend with. By my count a 416 upper in combination with an imported magazine would be a 922(r) violation.



Of the few that were sold to civilians they were 10.5 and 14.5" uppers so they would be SBRs or M16 uppers and 922(r) wouldn't matter.

But the 16" and 20" HK M416 uppers would be a different story.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:04:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 2:23:07 PM EDT by NoAim]

Originally Posted By UZI4you:

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
In addition to the form 6 (nonsporting imports, etc) issues, you also have 922(r) to contend with. By my count a 416 upper in combination with an imported magazine would be a 922(r) violation.



Of the few that were sold to civilians they were 10.5 and 14.5" uppers so they would be SBRs or M16 uppers and 922(r) wouldn't matter.

But the 16" and 20" HK M416 uppers would be a different story.



Correct (by interpretation). 922(r) applies to "sporting firearms". In this case, once it goes NFA, it's no longer "sporting" and thus not covered by 922(r).

The 16" and 20" are considered "sporting" and are thus subject to it. I may be off on my parts counts, but a US lower receiver, trigger, diconnector, hammer, mag, grip and buttstock would all count towards (made in USA). Forearm, barrel, bolt, bolt carrier, upper receiver are foregn parts. I know I'm missing some, but I'm too lazy to look up what all counts in 922(r).

Bottom line is, you can't have more than 10 imported parts. Using a US made lower and all lower parts should satisfy that requirement.

EDIT: The parts that count towards 922(r)

(1) Receivers
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearm hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floor plates

Items in a HK416 upper: 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 17.

That's 8 there, 9 if you count an "operating rod" as part of the gas piston. So with an entire US lower and US magazine, you're fine. If you put the HK mag in, your parts count goes up by 3, and you're over the 10 maximum imported items.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:28:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:

Originally Posted By Gamma762:
In addition to the form 6 (nonsporting imports, etc) issues, you also have 922(r) to contend with. By my count a 416 upper in combination with an imported magazine would be a 922(r) violation.


No 922(r) with ARs



See below. 922(r) applies to assembling all imported sporting firearms. You can actually possess a fully imported firearm, but it has to have been approved by Sec.Treas. under 923(d)(3).
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:10:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 3:13:29 PM EDT by remedy]
I just heard over on XYZ forums that Colt is going out of business and is recalling every AR15 and AR15 related part they've ever sold to civilians because they were sold under false pretenses. I tried searching on the Colt website but for some reason the posting that was referenced isn't there anymore.

What's the difference with the above and what you are saying? Nothing. It's complete and utter bullshit. The internet isn't the voice of "God", and not everything that is said or read is true. If you want to actually find out whether this "rumor" has any truth in it, why not fucking call HK? Dial 703.450.1900 and you can get a customer service person within about 5 minutes of your time. Or, if you feel like waiting a day or so, you could email cs@hk-usa.com. I think that would be more useful than starting another HK sucks flamefest (based on opinions and nonsense) or perpetuating the rumor.

ETA: There are some knowledgable folks around here including an HK rep that have already posted that the uppers are legal to own and are not in fact being recalled or actively hunted down (whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean). And, it was further stated by these folks that we will be seeing civilian sales of HK416 uppers and possibly full rifles one day not too far off.


- rem
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:11:24 PM EDT
I come up with 16 parts for the AR:

(1) Receivers X2
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearm hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floor plates

If you used an imported upper, and non imported lower parts, you would have the following imported parts:

(1) Receiver
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
17) Forearm hand guards

Looks to me you would be OK, even if you used an imported mag too.



Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:29:56 PM EDT
re: 416 and 922(r)

I'm not sure that the upper receiver should even be considered as a 922(r) countable part. For legal purposes, the AR lower is defined as the "receiver" and as a firearm. The upper is not.

Upper receiver is countable on the FAL, but it's defined as the firearm. FAL lower is counted as a "trigger housing", not as a receiver.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:27:45 PM EDT
"F" - HK
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:37:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CopM4:
"F" - HK



Nuff said!!!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:40:14 PM EDT
I wish I had one.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

­
tag
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:43:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 9:44:19 PM EDT by eodinert]
Hooked on Phonics did not work for many of you.

It would seem that up until the ATF said 'Oly oly oxen, free free free', that HK was trying to get the uppers back because they feared the wrath of the ATF. Nobody said the ATF was after the uppers, but I certainly could see how it could have gone that way. Had ATF declared the weapons to be illegally imported, and illegal to posess, things would have turned out differently.



re: 416 and 922(r)

I'm not sure that the upper receiver should even be considered as a 922(r) countable part. For legal purposes, the AR lower is defined as the "receiver" and as a firearm. The upper is not.

Upper receiver is countable on the FAL, but it's defined as the firearm. FAL lower is counted as a "trigger housing", not as a receiver.



ATF has a list of parts that count, and, guess what, most of the parts on the upper are on it. As a minimum, you can count your barrels, muzzle attachments, bolts, bolt carriers, forearms (handguards). I haven't seen a list with 'Upper receiver' on it, because most ARs are made domestically and 922r need not be applied, but I guarantee that an imported AR would have that part on the list to be counted. 922r has nothing to do with what part of the weapon is considered a firearm.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:21:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:
I come up with 16 parts for the AR:

(1) Receivers X2
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearm hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floor plates

If you used an imported upper, and non imported lower parts, you would have the following imported parts:

(1) Receiver
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
17) Forearm hand guards

Looks to me you would be OK, even if you used an imported mag too.






Forgot the "muzzle attachment", although you could replace that as well.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:45:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CopM4:
"F" - HK







Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:59:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 11:07:17 PM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By CopM4:
"F" - HK



You're wrong about HK, like most people that post on this board are. Colt and SIG I can understand, but HK has tried really hard to make things work in the USA

Posted by Steyraug

"HK history.

Made 90 series (91,93, 94, etc.) exclusively for the US - US banned them.

Made "ban compliant" rifles (911, SR9, SR9TSR9TC, MSG90, SP89, etc.) exclusively for the US - US banned them.

Made "ban proof" rifles (SL8, USC) exclusively for US - US ignored them.

Still makes the ONLY importable HK products (USP and other handguns) allowed by our laws.

So how does HK not care about the US market?"

HK has done a lot for the civilian shooter. More than most, but how many times should they get F'ed over by people we elect before they give up

Fact: HK has sold a civilian version of almost every single "assault rifle" they have ever made, including the G36, UMP and MP5. Someone tell me how they hate civilians now
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:15:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By CopM4:
"F" - HK



You're wrong about HK, like most people that post on this board are. Colt and SIG I can understand, but HK has tried really hard to make things work in the USA

Posted by Steyraug

"HK history.

Made 90 series (91,93, 94, etc.) exclusively for the US - US banned them.

Made "ban compliant" rifles (911, SR9, SR9TSR9TC, MSG90, SP89, etc.) exclusively for the US - US banned them.

Made "ban proof" rifles (SL8, USC) exclusively for US - US ignored them.

Still makes the ONLY importable HK products (USP and other handguns) allowed by our laws.

So how does HK not care about the US market?"

HK has done a lot for the civilian shooter. More than most, but how many times should they get F'ed over by people we elect before they give up

Fact: HK has sold a civilian version of almost every single "assault rifle" they have ever made, including the G36, UMP and MP5. Someone tell me how they hate civilians now




There you go clouding this argument up with "Facts" again.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:14:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
You're wrong about HK, like most people that post on this board are. Colt and SIG I can understand, but HK has tried really hard to make things work in the USA

Posted by Steyraug

"HK history.

Made 90 series (91,93, 94, etc.) exclusively for the US - US banned them.

Made "ban compliant" rifles (911, SR9, SR9TSR9TC, MSG90, SP89, etc.) exclusively for the US - US banned them.

Made "ban proof" rifles (SL8, USC) exclusively for US - US ignored them.

Still makes the ONLY importable HK products (USP and other handguns) allowed by our laws.

So how does HK not care about the US market?"

HK has done a lot for the civilian shooter. More than most, but how many times should they get F'ed over by people we elect before they give up

Fact: HK has sold a civilian version of almost every single "assault rifle" they have ever made, including the G36, UMP and MP5. Someone tell me how they hate civilians now



Thats an absolutely outstanding post.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:30:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By remedy:
ETA: There are some knowledgable folks around here including an HK rep that have already posted that the uppers are legal to own and are not in fact being recalled or actively hunted down (whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean). And, it was further stated by these folks that we will be seeing civilian sales of HK416 uppers and possibly full rifles one day not too far off.
- rem



Rem, can you clarify the bold part? I've only ever read, here and elsewhere, that HK is NOT EVER planning to release HK416s to civvies.

I'd love that to be wrong! Thanks.

Will
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:55:32 AM EDT
Asking because I don't know - where are the 416 uppers made?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:58:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MrHeeHee:
Asking because I don't know - where are the 416 uppers made?

Germany
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:40:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
You're wrong about HK, like most people that post on this board are. Colt and SIG I can understand, but HK has tried really hard to make things work in the USA

Posted by Steyraug

"HK history.

Made 90 series (91,93, 94, etc.) exclusively for the US - US banned them.

Made "ban compliant" rifles (911, SR9, SR9TSR9TC, MSG90, SP89, etc.) exclusively for the US - US banned them.

Made "ban proof" rifles (SL8, USC) exclusively for US - US ignored them.

Still makes the ONLY importable HK products (USP and other handguns) allowed by our laws.

So how does HK not care about the US market?"

HK has done a lot for the civilian shooter. More than most, but how many times should they get F'ed over by people we elect before they give up

Fact: HK has sold a civilian version of almost every single "assault rifle" they have ever made, including the G36, UMP and MP5. Someone tell me how they hate civilians now



Thats an absolutely outstanding post.



+1 Glad to see others know the facts.

ETA HK got screwed over 1989, 1993, 1994.....and in 1997-98 by Clinton's Executive Order.

Not too many people know about Clinton's 1997 EO but HK was going import new HK SR9s with "sporter/thumbhole stocks but were better than the old HK 911/SR9 thumbhole stocks. These guns made it into the country, but thanks to Clinton they were not allowed to clear customs and all were sent back to Germany.

This same EO banned the Steyr USR from importation. That is why only 3,000 USRs were imported.

It is because of this EO combined with the AWB the SL8 and USC rifles were limited to only ten rounds...while the same rifles sold in Europe could use G36 mags.

HK stuck their neck out to sell their guns in the U.S. and they got screwed over time after time. FN never stuck their neck out like HK. I am glad to see FN is selling the PS90, FN2000 and maybe SCAR to the U.S. but they didn't try to sell the FN FAL or FNC in the U.S. after 1989.

Some more facts the Fuck HK crowd needs to learn...........but they won't

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:14:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 10:14:51 AM EDT by Cylinder]

Originally Posted By CopM4:
"F" - HK



+1
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:27:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Short version:

A small number of HK416 uppers imported for a canceled LEO/Military order were purchased and sold off on the civilian market. The ATF has since deemed the upper kits perfectly legal, although most of the Internet chatter had them beating down doors to recover them. This was 100% incorrect. HK did release a statement that they wanted the uppers back, but they made no attempt to do so. Just goes to prove you should only believe about 20% of what you read on the Internet.




Dinger, IIRC, HK was here (or on the net somewhere) actively seeking return of the aforementioned uppers.

That is making an effort to get them back.

Did they kick any doors down...............I doubt it.

But they did make the gesture public to see if a warning shot would get it done.




I don't blame them.
I don't drink the HK kool aid, but I bet they didn't want any shit from the ATF, like VA_Dinger postulated.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:23:06 PM EDT
well I love my USP Tac and if they put the ARs out I'll get one... I still like HK regardless of whatever
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:20:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WillMunny:

Rem, can you clarify the bold part? I've only ever read, here and elsewhere, that HK is NOT EVER planning to release HK416s to civvies.

I'd love that to be wrong! Thanks.

Will



Ahh fuck dude, can't get to the link anymore. Ask a member to search the archives....It's in there from a few months back.... That's the thing that sucks about this site - archiving threads too quickly, especially the very popular and informative ones, and also having a piss-poor search function.


- rem
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:29:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CopM4:
"F" - HK



Yeah right, fuck the company at the top of the food chain for cranking out innovative, reliable, combat-proven, and frankly badass weapons. The only company that comes close to H&K is FN, followed by Steyr. FN was nowhere near as civilian-friendly as HK was. Look at the weapons built by both of them, then compare those to every other company out there. What advanced militaries and modern police forces use what weapons? Look at what's been available to civilians in the past 20 years. Besides the last few years, FN hasn't released anything to the civilian market. HK tried time and time again to conform their military line and offer to the US domestic market. What, do you have friggen blinders on or something? Can't see past your AR15? Have a bad experience with an HK handgun? Doubt it. I have two of them and they are the finest affordable combat/duty style handguns I own.

Some people........



- rem
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:42:31 PM EDT
I can see past my AR rifle.... And I can see the one the AR that HK makes just over the horizon
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:45:37 PM EDT
I have owned and been a hard core HK enthusiast since 1983.
Overall in my opinion they have been very civilian unfriendly since the early 1990s.
They stopped the importation of the SR-9 which is one of my best performing HKs because of poor sales. They were out of that market for about 5 years by choice until they decided to try again but were blocked by the Clinton change that was mentioned above. During those years the competition continued to import copies of the HK91. Hk will not sell you a 90 series replacement barrel unless you send the receiver in because "No one can install it but us". If you had the receiver restamped with a different model number or worse they will not work on your weapon so that means no barrel. They know we have legal full auto versions of their guns but refuse to sell us parts like select fire bolt carriers, but they will sell these items to certain parts dealers for 125.00 so we can buy them for 450.00 from the parts guys. You can say HK got screwed during the 1989 import ban but was it really any different than any other importer? They sold off everything that was stopped in customs after they had them modified. They did not loose any money in tooling as the 90 series was old and was all the same as the select fire versions of those weapons.

I do not think the parts count applies to the 416 uppers in any fashion. For one, it is going on a US made receiver and it is a rifle that is not listed on the import ban list. I would think for damn sure that a pre ban AR can have as many foreign parts as you want. Another point is that many of the 416 uppers have less than 16 inch barrels so they would be put on NFA weapons which no parts count rule applies. It is my understanding that HK threatened to sue anyone that did not turn in their 416 upper.
If I had one I would not turn it in and consider their threats hollow. It is my understanding that the 416 uppers were legally brought in on a Form 6 so how would ATF not know about them?
To threaten to sue someone that legally purchased a legally imported upper receiver is weak in my opinion. I would buy a FN SCAR any day of the week because FN has shown through the PS90 that they are willing to take the risk and provide some cool toys for civilians. I think it is HK Germany that is behind the restrictions and not HK USA.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:12:21 AM EDT
They make a better AR mag than Colt ever did. Some are leaking through the supply system into Iraq. I have one and hopefully more coming, it's my daily-carry-'round-the-FOB mag in the Tac Tailor buttstock pouch.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:13:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wrhk33:
I do not think the parts count applies to the 416 uppers in any fashion. For one, it is going on a US made receiver and it is a rifle that is not listed on the import ban list. I would think for damn sure that a pre ban AR can have as many foreign parts as you want.




All three of those are incorrect statements. 922r prohibits assembly of non-importable firearms from imported parts. "US receiver" is just one part out of the listed 20, of which only 10 can be imported and still remain legal. As previously stated, a 416 upper would appear to contain 8 of the listed parts, an imported magazine would include 3 more.

Just because those on the AR side of things haven't had to consider the import ban before doesn't mean it doesn't apply. Frankly I don't know how 922r would relate to NFA weapons, and IIRC 922r also doesn't apply to pistol builds. I'm not saying that they are illegal or that using them would be, but it should be noted and considered to avoid 922r violations.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:23:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 12:14:41 PM EDT by Ekie]

Originally Posted By Gamma762:

Originally Posted By wrhk33:
I do not think the parts count applies to the 416 uppers in any fashion. For one, it is going on a US made receiver and it is a rifle that is not listed on the import ban list. I would think for damn sure that a pre ban AR can have as many foreign parts as you want.




All three of those are incorrect statements. 922r prohibits assembly of non-importable firearms from imported parts. "US receiver" is just one part out of the listed 20, of which only 10 can be imported and still remain legal. As previously stated, a 416 upper would appear to contain 8 of the listed parts, an imported magazine would include 3 more.

Just because those on the AR side of things haven't had to consider the import ban before doesn't mean it doesn't apply. Frankly I don't know how 922r would relate to NFA weapons, and IIRC 922r also doesn't apply to pistol builds. I'm not saying that they are illegal or that using them would be, but it should be noted and considered to avoid 922r violations.



Yep, the whole idea of 922(r) was to stop US companies from importing parts and building rifles with them on US receivers. Remember B-West?

The illegal act is assembly, not possession or "using" them.

I only came up with 7 parts, and others have questioned my list and knocked it down to a lower count. Which I won't argue, for many reasons, one being either way the parts count is good.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:43:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 12:07:07 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By Gamma762:

Originally Posted By wrhk33:
I do not think the parts count applies to the 416 uppers in any fashion. For one, it is going on a US made receiver and it is a rifle that is not listed on the import ban list. I would think for damn sure that a pre ban AR can have as many foreign parts as you want.




All three of those are incorrect statements. 922r prohibits assembly of non-importable firearms from imported parts. "US receiver" is just one part out of the listed 20, of which only 10 can be imported and still remain legal. As previously stated, a 416 upper would appear to contain 8 of the listed parts, an imported magazine would include 3 more.

Just because those on the AR side of things haven't had to consider the import ban before doesn't mean it doesn't apply. Frankly I don't know how 922r would relate to NFA weapons, and IIRC 922r also doesn't apply to pistol builds. I'm not saying that they are illegal or that using them would be, but it should be noted and considered to avoid 922r violations.



Yep, the whole idea of 922(r) was to stop US companies from importing parts and building rifles with them on US receivers. Remember B-West?

The illegal act is assembly, possession or "using" them.

I only came up with 7 parts, and others have questioned my list and knocked it down to a lower count. Which I won't argue, for many reasons, one being either way the parts count is good.



Maybe I should point out that these were imported upper receiver kits only. They did not come into the country as complete weapons. Thus 922(r) is not in effect on uppers, because they are not considered a "Firearm". If the HK416 uppers that were sold had been imported as a complete weapon and then just had the uppers sold off that would be a different story.

I'm amazed we have so many junior G-men out to speculate and scare everybody. Do you really think this is helping? You can take off the tinfoil hats now because these uppers have ALREADY been declared perfectly legal to own by the ATF. You’re a day late and a dollar short.

Maybe if we create such a ruckus and email the ATF asking about them enough times we can get them to specifically ban them. Is that what you guys want?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:03:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By Gamma762:

Originally Posted By wrhk33:
I do not think the parts count applies to the 416 uppers in any fashion. For one, it is going on a US made receiver and it is a rifle that is not listed on the import ban list. I would think for damn sure that a pre ban AR can have as many foreign parts as you want.




All three of those are incorrect statements. 922r prohibits assembly of non-importable firearms from imported parts. "US receiver" is just one part out of the listed 20, of which only 10 can be imported and still remain legal. As previously stated, a 416 upper would appear to contain 8 of the listed parts, an imported magazine would include 3 more.

Just because those on the AR side of things haven't had to consider the import ban before doesn't mean it doesn't apply. Frankly I don't know how 922r would relate to NFA weapons, and IIRC 922r also doesn't apply to pistol builds. I'm not saying that they are illegal or that using them would be, but it should be noted and considered to avoid 922r violations.



Yep, the whole idea of 922(r) was to stop US companies from importing parts and building rifles with them on US receivers. Remember B-West?

The illegal act is assembly, possession or "using" them.

I only came up with 7 parts, and others have questioned my list and knocked it down to a lower count. Which I won't argue, for many reasons, one being either way the parts count is good.



Maybe I should point out that these were imported upper receiver kits only. They did not come into the country as complete weapons. Thus 922(r) is not in effect on uppers, because they are not considered a "Firearm". If the HK416 uppers that were sold had been imported as a complete weapon and then just had the uppers sold off that would be a different story.

I'm amazed we have so many junior G-men out to speculate and scare everybody. Do you really think this is helping? You can take off the tinfoil hats now because these uppers have ALREADY been declared perfectly legal to own by the ATF. You’re a day late and a dollar short.

Maybe if we create such a ruckus and email the ATF asking about them enough times we can get them to specifically ban them. Is that what you guys want?



So I can order all the necessary parts from a foreign entity and build myself an AK?
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