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Posted: 1/11/2006 4:53:29 AM EDT
It's odd that as long as I've been shooting ARs I've never fired, held, or even SEEN an actual complete ARMALITE AR15 rifle.

But the rifle on the cover of the latest BOOK OF THE AR15 is an Armalite M15a2 carbine. What is with those screw on front sight bases?

It seems like a cheezy shortcut.

Do any of armalite's ARs come with real front sight bases with bayo studs?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:26:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 5:27:42 AM EDT by Stump]
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:58:51 AM EDT

Conforming = GOOD
Something different = BAD

IMHO there is nothing wrong with the clamping FSB of the Armalite. I've had my AR10 five years with over 5000 rounds shot and never had a problem...just a different way of doing things.

That being said if it comes down to a bayonet charge, count me out.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:09:52 AM EDT
The clamp type front sight allows for easy correction of a canted FSB. While I admit it may be different, and not the normal way- it's not a bad touch either.

Having said that, if it doesn't have a bayo-lug these days- I'll pass.

Sly
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:19:19 AM EDT
With all the emphasis people put on rail systems, I'd think most folks would welcome a FACTORY clamped or set screw FSB. I really don't expect Armalite to put out a rifle with a canted FSB, but selling rifles that allow the user to put on a rail system without the need for a torch, an arbor press and a couple of good blacksmithing hammers (sarcasm here folks!) is a Good Thing.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:22:03 AM EDT
I actually like them now for a more practical reason:

It allows me to QUICKLY remove the FSB for cleaning the gas port on my auto uppers.

Properly torqued, I can't see the clamping FSB moving...
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:44:37 AM EDT
I've never heard of cleaning out gas ports.

Kind of a far fetched comparison, but.... Anyone who has ever owned a BMX bike or something can tell you that no matter how tight you torque your handle bars or seat post down, the right crash can knock them out of whack.

I'd venture to guess that the military would never find this as an acceptable method of assembly.

Do they at least stake the bolts down like a gas key?

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 6:48:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:
I've never heard of cleaning out gas ports.



Got a 10.3" barrel on a full auto?

The amount of crud that accumulates is astounding.

FWIW, I'd never done it before either...
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:10:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:

It seems like a cheezy shortcut.





Yep
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:27:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 7:29:35 AM EDT by mongo001]
A setscrew FSB can be just as "permanent" as a pinned one. Mechanically zero it to your rear sights and Loctite it in place. It won't move.

AMU uses this method on their M16 based DMRs. A true battle rifle.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:27:41 AM EDT
It is a cheezy shortcut, a money saving cheezy shortcut as they do not have to drill the barrel for the FSB pins and worry about aligning the FSB. They use them on their National Match and if the FSB is tightened too much it can restrict the bore and affect accuracy. I have seen them move to when bumped hard.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:30:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
A setscrew FSB can be just as "permanent as a pinned one. Mechanically zero it to your rear sights and Loctite it in place. It won't move.

AMU uses this method on their M16 based DMRs. A true battle rifle.



Its not a setscrew type setup, it works like a clamp.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:36:08 AM EDT
They stake their carrier keys with what looks like 1 hit from a center punc in the front and rear falls short of how it should be staked at least on the rifle I bought 6 years ago.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:39:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forward_Assist:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
A setscrew FSB can be just as "permanent as a pinned one. Mechanically zero it to your rear sights and Loctite it in place. It won't move.

AMU uses this method on their M16 based DMRs. A true battle rifle.



Its not a setscrew type setup, it works like a clamp.



Exactly! That's what it looks like, and it's not acceptable.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:41:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stump:
Of course they do, just go to their website and look for yourself.

The railed gas block just goes on more of their "match" type rifles, or rifles where they are counting on optics.

I'm not a fan of the railed gas block, but thankfully, they are very easy to replace.



Really? I would like to replace my railed block with a fixed front sight.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:13:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:14:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:

Originally Posted By Forward_Assist:

Originally Posted By mongo001:
A setscrew FSB can be just as "permanent as a pinned one. Mechanically zero it to your rear sights and Loctite it in place. It won't move.

AMU uses this method on their M16 based DMRs. A true battle rifle.



Its not a setscrew type setup, it works like a clamp.



Exactly! That's what it looks like, and it's not acceptable.



What's not acceptable about it? I have 2 PRI FSB's. One is a set screw and the other clamp on.

Thousands of rounds later neither has come loose. Rock solid. As for a bayo-lug..if I'm doing a bayonet charge, then things have really gone to hell. I don't need a bayo-lug.


There is nothing wrong with the clamp-on/set screw FSB's on a battle rifle.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:38:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:53:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman:
Barrel accuracy without taper pins is generally better, this is one reason Armalite can make the accuracy guarantees it does.

How often do we hear of ovetorqued barrels resulting in crooked front sights? I often see barrels new from the manufacturer with front sights simply pinned on crooked. The clamp on front sight base solves both these problems.



Well said and good point..
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:31:49 AM EDT
One of the main reasons the Armalite's are equipped with this type of gas block is to allow the shooter to zero the rifle using the front sight. This allows maximum use of the windage range of the rear sight in both directions.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:44:36 AM EDT
I am pretty sure one of the new military variants uses a set screwed on FSB. It's the marksman version for Iraq with a stainless 20" barrel and folding front site. So if that is the case then the military must be o.k. with it. I was a little worried about the rigidity of that type of system as well, until I saw that the military had approved it. I forget the name of the program, but I'm sure someone can chime in.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 10:07:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Torridone:
I am pretty sure one of the new military variants uses a set screwed on FSB. It's the marksman version for Iraq with a stainless 20" barrel and folding front site. So if that is the case then the military must be o.k. with it. I was a little worried about the rigidity of that type of system as well, until I saw that the military had approved it. I forget the name of the program, but I'm sure someone can chime in.



I think that you are refering to the SPR..
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 10:31:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 10:32:43 AM EDT by Interceptor_Knight]
The A2 Carbine comes with an A2 front site/gas block with a bayonet lug. Only the A4 Carbines come with the railed block without the lug. It isn't a cheesy shortcut, it is a deliberate move that many prefer. The intention of buying an A4 is to add optics. It is nice to have the flexibility of the railed gas block. If you really need a bayonet lug, you can add one. I saw a few Carbines at Dunhams and other places that came with an A2 front site and a removable carry handle with the 2 piece aluminum railed hand guards.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 10:40:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:
The A2 Carbine comes with an A2 front site/gas block with a bayonet lug. Only the A4 Carbines come with the railed block without the lug. It isn't a cheesy shortcut, it is a deliberate move that many prefer. The intention of buying an A4 is to add optics. It is nice to have the flexibility of the railed gas block. If you really need a bayonet lug, you can add one. I saw a few Carbines at Dunhams and other places that came with an A2 front site and a removable carry handle with the 2 piece aluminum railed hand guards.



He's talking about the way the gas block (both A2 and A4 types) are attached to the barrel, not A2 vs. A4 gas blocks.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:23:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 53vortec:
He's talking about the way the gas block (both A2 and A4 types) are attached to the barrel, not A2 vs. A4 gas blocks.



I understand that. Only the A4 railed block is "Clamped" on the barrel. All Armalites with the standard A2 gas block/sight are pinned to the barrel. If you want it pinned and a bayonet lug, buy it that way. They give you the choice. I also mentioned that there is the choice out there of a flat top with the A2 block /sight. My point is to not get excited about the railed block being clamped and just go ahead and buy a pinned A2 style if that is what you want. I personally prefer the current railed block design for the ease of removal/installation to access the gas tube.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:23:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SinistralRifleman:
Barrel accuracy without taper pins is generally better, this is one reason Armalite can make the accuracy guarantees it does.

How often do we hear of ovetorqued barrels resulting in crooked front sights? I often see barrels new from the manufacturer with front sights simply pinned on crooked. The clamp on front sight base solves both these problems.



I wonder if they are Service Rifle competition legal.

I just can't see trusting some screws to stay tight up there; especially on a combat weapon.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:27:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:32:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:
I wonder if they are Service Rifle competition legal.

I just can't see trusting some screws to stay tight up there; especially on a combat weapon.



They are most definitely NOT legal.

I am confident that my sight is not going anywhere. I don't plan on pounding any fence posts into the ground with my rifle anytime soon.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:34:32 AM EDT
For all those individuals who purchased Armalite rifle with those cheezy clamp-on clamp-off FSB, send them to me. I will dispose of them properly, I promise!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:37:53 AM EDT
How long have they been doing that? Like I said, I've never even actually seen and ARMALITE rifle.

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 11:43:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:
How long have they been doing that? Like I said, I've never even actually seen and ARMALITE rifle.



Many years...
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:05:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 223Rem:
For all those individuals who purchased Armalite rifle with those cheezy clamp-on clamp-off FSB, send them to me. I will dispose of them properly, I promise!



Damn, you beat me to it.

I hate taper pinned FSBs. ALL of my ARs have the Armalite gas block or set screws. The pic rail gas blocks offer a lot of flexibility. Put on a pic rail FSB for irons and take it off for optics. Or leave them both on. Windage adjustment is a big plus.

The Army doesn't do it that way....so what. They pin them so Joe doesn't mess with it. They would probably weld it to the barrel if they could. What is all the fuss about the bayo lug? Civilian use is limited to attaching a bayo for taking hero pics on bed/bathroom floor to post on ar15.com.

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:01:38 PM EDT
You really should go out and by an Armalite A4 with that crappy gas block. While you are wasting money get it in a middy. You will love it!!!!!!!!! If you don't like it I wouldn't mind having another.
Sweet little guns!!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:01:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cycobushmaster:

Originally Posted By 223Rem:
For all those individuals who purchased Armalite rifle with those cheezy clamp-on clamp-off FSB, send them to me. I will dispose of them properly, I promise!



Damn, you beat me to it.

I hate taper pinned FSBs. ALL of my ARs have the Armalite gas block or set screws. The pic rail gas blocks offer a lot of flexibility. Put on a pic rail FSB for irons and take it off for optics. Or leave them both on. Windage adjustment is a big plus.

The Army doesn't do it that way....so what. They pin them so Joe doesn't mess with it. They would probably weld it to the barrel if they could. What is all the fuss about the bayo lug? Civilian use is limited to attaching a bayo for taking hero pics on bed/bathroom floor to post on ar15.com.




Don't interrupt the Chairborne Rangers when they're in the middle of a gear-gasm.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 9:21:59 PM EDT
Hell I always thought it was a good Idea .
Neither of my AR-10s or the M-15 have come loose
but it would solve the problem I have on a Colt
lightweight Sporter A2 that zeros with windage
cranked 3/4 right
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 10:28:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:
How long have they been doing that? Like I said, I've never even actually seen and ARMALITE rifle.




And yet your willing to criticize them!



Heres one,clamp on FSB A-OK


Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:27:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 4:28:12 AM EDT by demigod]

Originally Posted By demusn1979:

And yet your willing to criticize them!

Heres one,clamp on FSB A-OK

i22.photobucket.com/albums/b317/demusn79/th_Im000564.jpg</a>



Well I said I've seen pics, not fired one. And I said it "LOOKS" like a shortcut, and some agree.

Don't get sentimental in the areas now!

(great pic of the FSB by the way )
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:30:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:
Hell I always thought it was a good Idea .
Neither of my AR-10s or the M-15 have come loose
but it would solve the problem I have on a Colt
lightweight Sporter A2 that zeros with windage
cranked 3/4 right



How is that? Wouldn't you still need to have the port in the barrel lined up properly?
I would send your upper out for repair.

You couldn't just spin the FSB to any angle of your choice eh?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 5:08:43 AM EDT
You ever seen the port on the FSB? It huge in relation to the barrel gas port. On the PRI, you can move it left or right for a 1/4 of a inch and still have it function fine.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 5:52:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Interceptor_Knight:

Originally Posted By demigod:
I wonder if they are Service Rifle competition legal.

I just can't see trusting some screws to stay tight up there; especially on a combat weapon.



They are most definitely NOT legal.

I am confident that my sight is not going anywhere. I don't plan on pounding any fence posts into the ground with my rifle anytime soon.



Barrel accuracy without taper pins is generally better, this is one reason Armalite can make the accuracy guarantees it does.

How often do we hear of ovetorqued barrels resulting in crooked front sights? I often see barrels new from the manufacturer with front sights simply pinned on crooked. The clamp on front sight base solves both these problems.



They most definitely are service rifle legal or Armalite would not be using them on their National Match which they have for some time. It is not done for accuracy, it is done so they do not have to worry about pinning them in the correct place and because it is cheaper. While pinned FSB's are not the best way to go for accuracy if there was an accuracy enhancement with the clamp on ones from Armalite you would see it in comparison to the pinned on ones and you don't. What you do see is constriction of the bore when they are overtightened which is detremental to accuracy and movement when their loose.

For a battle rifle, pinned on ones are best, no chance of movement. For a Match rifle the best is red loctited on with no set screws or clamps. Second best is the set screw modification where two flats are milled into the barrel for the set screws, when this is done properly the set screws only serve to position the FSB not to clamp it in anyway, the FSB still remains locktited in place, when done like this, it is the best method but often it is not done properly. Third is the pinned on version which works fine also.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:26:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 6:28:32 AM EDT by demigod]

Originally Posted By Forward_Assist:

They most definitely are service rifle legal or Armalite would not be using them on their National Match which they have for some time. It is not done for accuracy, it is done so they do not have to worry about pinning them in the correct place and because it is cheaper. While pinned FSB's are not the best way to go for accuracy if there was an accuracy enhancement with the clamp on ones from Armalite you would see it in comparison to the pinned on ones and you don't. What you do see is constriction of the bore when they are overtightened which is detremental to accuracy and movement when their loose.

For a battle rifle, pinned on ones are best, no chance of movement. For a Match rifle the best is red loctited on with no set screws or clamps. Second best is the set screw modification where two flats are milled into the barrel for the set screws, when this is done properly the set screws only serve to position the FSB not to clamp it in anyway, the FSB still remains locktited in place, when done like this, it is the best method but often it is not done properly. Third is the pinned on version which works fine also.



Well put!!!

Althought I would bet that the accuracy improvement realization is negligible to 99.9% of shooters. The Cheap and Easy is where it's at, and Armalite simply talks up the Accuracy angle.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a big time Armalite/Eagle lower user, but I wouldn't use an upper half with a clamp on FSB.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:32:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 6:35:51 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By demigod:
.... but I wouldn't use an upper half with a clamp on FSB.



OK...I suppose this sums up my thoughts on the matter:



Buy what you want and shut up about it already.

I don't have battle rifles. I don't sweat bayo lugs. Primarily because I am NOT EVER going to do a bayo charge. I have some uppers with clamp on gas blocks and some with pinned on gas blocks/FSB's.

Having been through a few classes, rolling around on the ground with them, neither type has moved. Imagine that...

My front sights are rail mounted on all but one upper.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:49:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 6:50:20 AM EDT by SHIVAN]
www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote53.htm

That is the "why". A side effect may be that the process is cheaper and easier. The goal of having the clamp-on FSB was to allow SOME shooter's the ability to adjust the front sight to achieve equal windage in both directions.

The military requires pinned front sight bases on their standard M16 specs. Civilian shooters do not need to be limited to the mil spec.

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:53:07 AM EDT
Oh, SHIVAN!

You still haven't lost your Charm!

So you'll admit that it's Cutting Corners at its worst... RIGHT?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:53:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:


Civilian shooters do not need to be limited to the mil spec.




But SHIVAN...the Chairborne Rangers need Milspec...

Well put...again-I'm not doing bayonet charges nor rappling outa helos...

My clamped and set screwed PRI's have NEVER moved...thousands of rounds and being dropped a few dozen times and they still have NEVER moved...
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:54:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 6:55:36 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By demigod:
Oh, SHIVAN!

You still haven't lost your Charm!

So you'll admit that it's Cutting Corners at its worst... RIGHT?



I posted what I think it is right above this "gem" of a post.

With 60 posts I'm not sure you are qualified to speak to my "charm".

Well, unless this is a second account of someone here.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 6:59:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 7:01:22 AM EDT by wildearp]

Originally Posted By Forward_Assist:
It is a cheezy shortcut, a money saving cheezy shortcut as they do not have to drill the barrel for the FSB pins and worry about aligning the FSB. They use them on their National Match and if the FSB is tightened too much it can restrict the bore and affect accuracy. I have seen them move to when bumped hard.



Junk Science. If I think it is so, or say it is so, it must be so. Lets see some hard data, Mr. Wizard.



Lets get some bicycle handlebars and mount them to an Armalite.

Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:21:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2006 7:25:38 AM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By demigod:
So you'll admit that it's Cutting Corners at its worst... RIGHT?



Here is cutting corners at its worst:



Whose account are you using to host the pics?
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:26:55 AM EDT
The clamp on A2 FSB has benefits and drawbacks just like any other product of any other industry. It is up to the shooter to decide which is best for his/her needs, and also allows for full mechanical windage and can be used on multiple barrels. For instance, putting a new barrel on your rifle, you can use the same parts and do not have to worry about having a new FSB pinned on correctly. Like anything else, you choose the parts you want on your rifle, whether it is pin on or clamp on. It's up to the shooter to determine his/her particular needs and to get the proper configuration to fit those needs.
As for the reliability, our clamp on gas blocks and FSBs are tightened down in a specific fashion to keep them from being accidentally knocked off center. Like stated above, the shooter determines his or her needs and we do our best to accommodate those specific needs.
In regards to the clamp on gas block, we find those to be an extremely versatile item. They are most commonly used because of the need for optics on the flattop A4 rifles. The gas block is also equipped with the picatinny rail which fits our detachable front sight base for those who switch from optics to detachable accessories (front sight & carrying handle). Being a clamped on piece allows for easy removal if a shooter feels the need to put on a fixed or clamp on FSB.
Feel free to call or email with any questions or concerns, we need to hear your input on our products to help us make the best for your needs.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:33:02 AM EDT
I also don't like the idea of a clamped on FSB. I think it would hold but the idea of it rotating on the barrel would bug me, I would like to see it pinned on. I'd also wonder about Loc-Tite holding it, as heat will break loc-tite and that seems about the hottest place there is an an AR. A pinned FSB is just my paranoid preference.

I would really like a flip up sight or even plain railed FSB that pins on, but the only ones I have seen are PRI and GGG which are out of my price range. I like the YHM a lot, but from what I understand their pinned model has been discontinued, too bad. If anybody knows another manufacturer who offers one for a similar price(< $150) please post. thanks
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 7:49:41 AM EDT
Clearly Armalite is a Top Tier Manuf. You never see "trouble" threads from Armalite owners.

After reading the Sweeney article, I just wanted to get input on the Topic and see what everyone thought.
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