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Posted: 1/11/2006 12:49:29 AM EDT
I've got a receiver manufactured under license by Olympic Arms right after the '94 ban kicked off. I understand that some states have their own bans now that the Crime Bill sunsetted; would this receiver be considered "grandfathered" in a state that enacted a relatively recent ban?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:01:45 AM EDT
www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=24

This is a great place to start.

To sum it up:

In NY we are NOT allowed to have any of the evil features on a POST ban rifle. (Flash suppressor, bayo lug, telescopic stock)

In order for your lower to qualify as a TRUE PREBAN it has to be:

A) Made on or before Sept 14th 1994

B) Has to be assembled as a COMPLETE rifle on or before this date.

C) All this needs to be verifiable. (You must sign a statement saying that you built it, you can have a receipt of sale to prove it was a complete preban, etc....)


The problem we run into in the banned states is people saying it's a preban based on serial number. Serial number does tell what year it was made but how do we know it was a complete rifle? Some lowers were sold as just lowers.

It gets tricky, if you have no proof of it as being a true preban I wouldn't sell it as one. You could put someones ass in a sling.

If you have anymore questions, feel free to IM me.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:38:21 AM EDT
I say it depends on the state... some states the pre-bans are banned
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:29:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZW17:
www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=24

This is a great place to start.

To sum it up:

In NY we are NOT allowed to have any of the evil features on a POST ban rifle. (Flash suppressor, bayo lug, telescopic stock)

In order for your lower to qualify as a TRUE PREBAN it has to be:

A) Made on or before Sept 14th 1994

B) Has to be assembled as a COMPLETE rifle on or before this date.

C) All this needs to be verifiable. (You must sign a statement saying that you built it, you can have a receipt of sale to prove it was a complete preban, etc....)


The problem we run into in the banned states is people saying it's a preban based on serial number. Serial number does tell what year it was made but how do we know it was a complete rifle? Some lowers were sold as just lowers.

It gets tricky, if you have no proof of it as being a true preban I wouldn't sell it as one. You could put someones ass in a sling.

If you have anymore questions, feel free to IM me.



Some companies have records that show whether or not the rifle was sold as a complete weapon or as a lower receiver. That is probably the best way to be able to prove it is legal. SA, tho they do not sell ARs keep pretty good record of when built, and in what configuration, was it a stripped receiver, the model and stock type. Would be pretty hard for a State to go against that.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:32:33 AM EDT
In MA up here it has to be pre 94 complete weapon when it left the factory.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:33:26 AM EDT
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this America and isnt the burdon of proof on the prosecution? If you know it is legal the state has to prove it wasn't.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:57:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 8:11:11 AM EDT by fxntime]

Originally Posted By CTKurt:
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this America and isnt the burdon of proof on the prosecution? If you know it is legal the state has to prove it wasn't.



Sure, but the problem is that the state has a basically unlimited amount of money and resources and you have only so much $$$$ before you lose by attrition. Most people weigh that and find it just ain't worth the hassle to try. They would rather pay a bit more for one that was easily proved to be a"factory" completed rifle before the ban. Colt also keeps pretty good records and tho it might cost a bit to get, it would be difficult to go against the manufacturer who has original build records dating before the 94 ban. Also, no PA wants to lose a case and look foolish doing it. He WILL check the records available if he is any good, and a case that he stands a good chance of losing from the get go is not going to be in his best interest. There is always another case out there and he knows it.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 8:11:35 AM EDT
I see your point.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 12:23:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:

Some companies have records that show whether or not the rifle was sold as a complete weapon or as a lower receiver. That is probably the best way to be able to prove it is legal. SA, tho they do not sell ARs keep pretty good record of when built, and in what configuration, was it a stripped receiver, the model and stock type. Would be pretty hard for a State to go against that.



Very true Fxntime. Here is my delima though.

I own mostly Colt Ar's. I have called Colt on many occasions and talked to the lady to verify my serial numbers and make sure it left the factory as a complete rifle. I asked her if they could send me a letter of authenticity or something along those lines, they don't do such things.

So lets say I get arrested for being in possession of a illegal gun, how am I ever going to get Colt to get involved? With they subpoena them? Will my lawyer be able to prove anything from a lady telling him this info over the phone?
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 1:42:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ZW17:

Originally Posted By fxntime:

Some companies have records that show whether or not the rifle was sold as a complete weapon or as a lower receiver. That is probably the best way to be able to prove it is legal. SA, tho they do not sell ARs keep pretty good record of when built, and in what configuration, was it a stripped receiver, the model and stock type. Would be pretty hard for a State to go against that.



Very true Fxntime. Here is my delima though.

I own mostly Colt Ar's. I have called Colt on many occasions and talked to the lady to verify my serial numbers and make sure it left the factory as a complete rifle. I asked her if they could send me a letter of authenticity or something along those lines, they don't do such things.

So lets say I get arrested for being in possession of a illegal gun, how am I ever going to get Colt to get involved? With they subpoena them? Will my lawyer be able to prove anything from a lady telling him this info over the phone?



I believe you can get a letter from Colt but you have to buy it. You could if needed, subpoena them I guess, but if you are arrested with an illegal gun I am sure that the PAs office will make a call themselves as they are going to want to CYA themselves. Being held is one thing, False arrest is another and lawyers are always happy to screw some moron or city for a bit of $$$$. Guns made at a factory are pretty much a no brainer as far as build date goes. And since Colt is still in Biz the records are available. Heck, how many places and books have lists of SN#s that date them? Even a call to BATF would show that it was pre ban unless we are talking about a few rifles built 1 day before or on that date.
Besides, to charge you they will have to show evidence to support their case at a prelim. That is going to be a tad difficult if records show it was a rifle built in say, 1987.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:57:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:

Originally Posted By ZW17:

Originally Posted By fxntime:

Some companies have records that show whether or not the rifle was sold as a complete weapon or as a lower receiver. That is probably the best way to be able to prove it is legal. SA, tho they do not sell ARs keep pretty good record of when built, and in what configuration, was it a stripped receiver, the model and stock type. Would be pretty hard for a State to go against that.



Very true Fxntime. Here is my delima though.

I own mostly Colt Ar's. I have called Colt on many occasions and talked to the lady to verify my serial numbers and make sure it left the factory as a complete rifle. I asked her if they could send me a letter of authenticity or something along those lines, they don't do such things.

So lets say I get arrested for being in possession of a illegal gun, how am I ever going to get Colt to get involved? With they subpoena them? Will my lawyer be able to prove anything from a lady telling him this info over the phone?



I believe you can get a letter from Colt but you have to buy it. You could if needed, subpoena them I guess, but if you are arrested with an illegal gun I am sure that the PAs office will make a call themselves as they are going to want to CYA themselves. Being held is one thing, False arrest is another and lawyers are always happy to screw some moron or city for a bit of $$$$. Guns made at a factory are pretty much a no brainer as far as build date goes. And since Colt is still in Biz the records are available. Heck, how many places and books have lists of SN#s that date them? Even a call to BATF would show that it was pre ban unless we are talking about a few rifles built 1 day before or on that date.
Besides, to charge you they will have to show evidence to support their case at a prelim. That is going to be a tad difficult if records show it was a rifle built in say, 1987.




True.

Remember though, the burden of proof will be on you to prove your innocence's. The justice system is no longer innocent until proven guilty.

Colt does not provide any sort of documentation to show it's a preban nor do they sell such a thing unless the lady just didn't want to deal with me that day. If I am wrong and anyone knows different please chime in.
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