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Posted: 1/9/2006 2:25:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 2:58:23 PM EDT by excist_and_reflect]
I was wondering if an AR rifle can run bone dry. I hear a lot of the time that it has to be properly cleaned and lubed, which is understandable, but say for dusty enviorments, where lube (unless you have dry lube) would attract dust and dirt, wouldn't it be better to have no lube instead of gunking it up with dirt? Also, what if I were in a situation where I had no Lube, I would like to know if it would run, and if not, Why? Someone here would have to know.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:28:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By excist_and_reflect:
I was wondering if an AR rifle can run bone dry. I hear a lot of the time that it has to be properly cleaned and lubed, which is understandable, but say for dusty enviorments, where lube (unless you have dry lube) would attract dust and dirt, wouldn't it be better to have no lube instead of gunking it up with dirt? Also, what if I were in a situation where I had no Lube, I would like to know if it would run, and if not, Why?



Are you shooting in the middle of a desert? The AR will work fine for a while without any lube. But no point in trying to make it do so, get some dry lube if you need to. But IMO Ive tried the dry lube and it doesnt work as good.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:36:45 PM EDT
Well I use graphite lube, and I haven't had a problem, but I haven't had any problems out of my Bushmaster at all, so I couldn't tell you if it's working good or not. I usually only fire 2 to 3 hundred rounds at a time, then take it home an clean it again. No, I'm not shooting it in the dessert, I was just wondering. I'd like to know the limitation and why.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:58:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By excist_and_reflect:
Well I use graphite lube, and I haven't had a problem, but I haven't had any problems out of my Bushmaster at all, so I couldn't tell you if it's working good or not. I usually only fire 2 to 3 hundred rounds at a time, then take it home an clean it again. No, I'm not shooting it in the dessert, I was just wondering. I'd like to know the limitation and why.



graphite lube isn't the best idea for AR's it can corrode the aluminium.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:59:24 PM EDT
Thanks, I'm gonna wipe it down tonight then. What dry lube should I use? Remington dri-lok?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:04:53 PM EDT
Why are you stuck on the dry lube idea in winter Ohio? If you are deployed, get with your armorer and see what is available. If not, try running regular lubricants.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:08:24 PM EDT
I like dry lube better.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:22:39 PM EDT
Even in dusty conditions, the AR will continue to run with convential lubes. If you can help it at all, always keep your guns lubricated. The benefit of collecting a little less dust because of no lubrication does not outweigh the ramifications of doing so.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:37:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 3:38:40 PM EDT by I-M-A-WMD]
My limited experience w/ shooting bone dry ARs is thus:

My Dad heavily lubes his ARs w/ CLP. After a cleaning his first string of rounds from his freshly cleaned AR action pukes oil all over the place. I was the exact opposite. Most the time, I would lightly lube contact areas such as the carrier surfaces where parts ride on eachother, but it was nothing more than a light film on limited areas. After awhile I would sometimes skip lubing my AR as my religious cleaning habits usually meant the weapon was going to be cleaned again around ~150 rounds.

Then I took a trip to my buddies place where I discovered how to bumpfire. I put 7 magazines thru my AR in short order. (210 rounds) I went to my Uncles to show him my new found abilities and my weapon jammed every 3-4 rounds. (Very amusing to him) I figured it was due to my method of bumpfiring and gave up. The next day I was out shooting my AR again. (Skipping the bumpfiring as I discovered my newly acquired ability served more to waste ammo than equaling any real practical "ability") My AR continued to jam while firing in normal semi-auto fashion. In disgust I grabbed my CLP and poured some onto the carrier as it seemed to be very gritty when cycling the action by hand. After it was lubed, it spit brass w/ regularity once again.

My personal conclusion is that if necessary, it may be OK to run an AR dry such as in very dusty environments. Reason being, in such a harsh environment you'll be wise to frequently clean your weapon. At that, small amounts of lube on contact surfaces might still be OK as long as the cleanings continue to be frequent. But after 2-300 rounds, the powder residue is just as bad as getting any dust in your action. In the end, if I were to be in harsh dusty environments I'd be concerned enough to have a better answer for you.

The above may be purely speculation on my part, but it constitutes my .02.

Sly
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:42:16 PM EDT
Would a chrome bolt carrier be better for running it dry since it will be smoother?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:47:18 PM EDT
Just use standard lubrication, motor oil whatever, it makes no sense trying to dry lube an AR..........yer just gonna set yourself up for trouble! But do what you want, I'm jus gonna lubricate mine like I always do, no reason not to. I meen you've got to clean it....then.....well.......lube it. Easy as that.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:47:28 PM EDT
i shoot my bushmaster almost everyday bone dry in the desert. every 4 months or so when i clean it i spray it down with remingotn teflon oil shit. did i mention i shoot about 500 rounds of wolf a week. never jams or anything.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:53:09 PM EDT
Why are you stuck on dry lube? Do you use dry-lube in your car engine? Put a few drops of CLP on the contact points and run it.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:01:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 4:03:27 PM EDT by A_Free_Man]
CLP or other oil not only lubricates but helps protect from corrosion.

I live in a high humidity area, and to leave my firearms dry is to invite rust. Yes, I run them "wet", have had it said I "over oil" them. But they function well.

Any excess lubricant blows out in the first few rounds fired.

No, we are not in the middle of the desert, nor are we in sandy conditions here in the US, so there is no need to use dry lubes or try to run it dry.

To expect the AR-15/M16/M4 to perform well dry is expecting a little too much. You wouldn't expect your car engine to run without oil.

The various manuals tell you how to lube the AR-15. Armalite has a good Tech Note on lubrication (which is how I do it).

If you want your AR-15 to function dry, have it Black-T'd. This is a teflon coating that is applied to all parts, everywhere except the chamber and bore.

In a situation with no oil available, you can use oil off a dipstick, transmission oil, motor oil.

It's a machine, it needs oil.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:08:47 PM EDT
A few guys on my team in Aghanistan tried graphite, and swore by it. My feeling is that some pepole will do anything that's in "vogue" at the moment, in an attempt to appear to be thinking outside the box. I just used CLP and kept my weapon clean. Works every time. Of course, having an AKM as a backup is never a bad idea when your primary is in pieces.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:09:18 PM EDT
Many units in the sandbox (the ones that apparently don't have function problems) use a procedure where each soldier cleans his weapon twice a day. Not a top-to-bottom cleaning, but one where everything that moves in the upper gets wiped down, the innards get wiped, and then the BCG gets a very light coat of CLP. This keeps the CLP from getting all gunked up with dust, keeps dust from having a chance to permanently adhere to important parts, and thus keeps the rifles running.

If it works for the grunts who actually stake their lives on their weapons, I think it's good enough for me.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:19:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Many units in the sandbox (the ones that apparently don't have function problems) use a procedure where each soldier cleans his weapon twice a day. Not a top-to-bottom cleaning, but one where everything that moves in the upper gets wiped down, the innards get wiped, and then the BCG gets a very light coat of CLP. This keeps the CLP from getting all gunked up with dust, keeps dust from having a chance to permanently adhere to important parts, and thus keeps the rifles running.

If it works for the grunts who actually stake their lives on their weapons, I think it's good enough for me.



That's about the gist of it. Takes two minutes. No white gloves required.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:23:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 4:29:45 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
I took a class recently from a certain well-known 1911 gunsmith/Instructor/Military vet. He taught the class that a 1911/AR should always be heavily lubed with oil. He made it a point to discuss sandy environments. Dry lube is not the best choice. Keep it clean with more frequent and thorough cleaning's, heavily lubed, keep the dust cover closed whenever possible, and use one of the shoot through barrel plugs if possible. The point is that your not going to be able to keep the sand out completely and dry lube does not lubricate enough to keep the parts moving freely in these environments. As always it comes down the preparation and cleaning if you want a reliable AR.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:44:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 6:29:15 PM EDT by 18Bravo]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I took a class recently from a certain well-known 1911 gunsmith/Instructor/Military vet. He taught the class that a 1911/AR should always be heavily lubed with oil. He made it a point to discuss sandy environments. Dry lube is not the best choice. Keep it clean with more frequent and thorough cleaning's, heavily lubed, keep the dust cover closed whenever possible, and use one of the shoot through barrel plugs if possible. The point is that your not going to be able to keep the sand out completely and dry lube does not lubricate enough to keep the parts moving freely in these environments. As always it comes down the preparation and cleaning if you want a reliable AR.



I'll never be well-known, nor will my name ever be associated with good shooting, but I must respectfully disagree about the heavy lube. A very light film of oil is all that is necessary, with a touch more on moving surfaces. The reason? Kack off several rouns in swift succession in the desert heat and see. The smoke from burning oil will convince you most ricky tick.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 6:10:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 18Bravo:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I took a class recently from a certain well-known 1911 gunsmith/Instructor/Military vet. He taught the class that a 1911/AR should always be heavily lubed with oil. He made it a point to discuss sandy environments. Dry lube is not the best choice. Keep it clean with more frequent and thorough cleaning's, heavily lubed, keep the dust cover closed whenever possible, and use one of the shoot through barrel plugs if possible. The point is that your not going to be able to keep the sand out completely and dry lube does not lubricate enough to keep the parts moving freely in these environments. As always it comes down the preparation and cleaning if you want a reliable AR.



I'll never be well-known, nor will my name ever be associated with good shooting, but I must respectfully disagree about the heavy lube. A very light film of oil is all that is necessary, with a touch more on moving surfces. The reason? Kack off several rouns in swift succession in the desert heat and see. The smoke from burning oil will conivince you most ricky tick.



What Va Dinger posted mirrors the report on Dust Environments released by NSWC Crane. They discovered that wet lubes outperformed dry lubes consistently in a dust environment (I believe they used silica flour the consistency of talcum). Even though the wet lubes allowed more dust to adhere to the internals, they also allowed the dust to migrate away from working parts to non-critical areas.

Google "M16","dust environment" and "Crane" and you should be able to find the report hosted on Militec's site.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 6:24:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:

Originally Posted By 18Bravo:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I took a class recently from a certain well-known 1911 gunsmith/Instructor/Military vet. He taught the class that a 1911/AR should always be heavily lubed with oil. He made it a point to discuss sandy environments. Dry lube is not the best choice. Keep it clean with more frequent and thorough cleaning's, heavily lubed, keep the dust cover closed whenever possible, and use one of the shoot through barrel plugs if possible. The point is that your not going to be able to keep the sand out completely and dry lube does not lubricate enough to keep the parts moving freely in these environments. As always it comes down the preparation and cleaning if you want a reliable AR.



I'll never be well-known, nor will my name ever be associated with good shooting, but I must respectfully disagree about the heavy lube. A very light film of oil is all that is necessary, with a touch more on moving surfces. The reason? Kack off several rouns in swift succession in the desert heat and see. The smoke from burning oil will conivince you most ricky tick.



What Va Dinger posted mirrors the report on Dust Environments released by NSWC Crane. They discovered that wet lubes outperformed dry lubes consistently in a dust environment (I believe they used silica flour the consistency of talcum). Even though the wet lubes allowed more dust to adhere to the internals, they also allowed the dust to migrate away from working parts to non-critical areas.

Google "M16","dust environment" and "Crane" and you should be able to find the report hosted on Militec's site.



18Bravo is not talking about using dry lubricants. He's talking about not flooding the damned rifle with oil. I happen to agree with him. Several drops into the bolt carrier where the bolt rides, everywhere else an almost invisible film of CLP. Never had a problem in nearly 5K rounds.

Reading comprehension is key.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 6:43:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By excist_and_reflect:
I like dry lube better.



Use talc. Its very fine, and should work quite well for you.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:00:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 7:01:40 PM EDT by vallopez2000]
Some CLP's like FP-10 are purported to actually repel dust with an ionic charge. I use FP-10 and it is an awsome lube, good cleaner, and moderate protectant against rust.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:44:23 PM EDT
BoomLube!

sorry, couldn't help it...


In one test that I read, they did use an unlubricated gun as a control and it did pretty well actually (as good as some lubricants), but did do near as well as a properly lubricated rifle.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:52:38 PM EDT
Just a few drops of CLP on the bolt/carrier are all that I've have ever used in 20+ years in the deserts. Now when I'm on the range there it gets oiled more.

CD
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 11:20:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 11:20:54 PM EDT by SpecialOperator]
I dunno about ARs, but with my 870, I'll shoot about 100-300 rounds through it before a breakdown and cleaning, and I'll spray a rag with CLP and scrub theinternals free of gunpowder residue, then put it back together.

Of course, the inside of an 870 are a good deal less complicated then an AR.

But I've never had a problem.

I subscribe to the "Less is more" oiling mentality, probably because I used to play paintball and any excess oil would inevitably find its way into the barrel and wreak havoc on ballistics....

However, running without oil is downright stupid.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 11:25:14 PM EDT
Use Militech, give it a few treatments and you can run dry. I use it in all of my AR's


Here is the link to their website, you can send in for a free sample

www.militec1.com/
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 5:25:29 AM EDT
The best lube in the desert is minimal amounts of lube, about a q-tip whether it is CLP, TW25b, militec Slip 2000 will keep your weapon going.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 5:42:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:
The best lube in the desert is minimal amounts of lube, about a q-tip whether it is CLP, TW25b, militec Slip 2000 will keep your weapon going.



You did forget one thing. The best thing to keep your AR running in any extreme environment is lots of elbow grease. No magic lube is going to keep any rifle running when it's full of crap. Take care of it, and even some oil that is leaking from the oil pan of an old truck will work.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 5:48:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:

Originally Posted By STLRN:
The best lube in the desert is minimal amounts of lube, about a q-tip whether it is CLP, TW25b, militec Slip 2000 will keep your weapon going.



You did forget one thing. The best thing to keep your AR running in any extreme environment is lots of elbow grease. No magic lube is going to keep any rifle running when it's full of crap. Take care of it, and even some oil that is leaking from the oil pan of an old truck will work.



My biggest concern is most Marines (I have to assume Soldiers also) only know how to clean a weapon for an inspection and not for field serviceability. Perfect case in point, troops scrubbing on the barrel in a dry environment or using the firing pin to scrap the crown or rear of bolt carrier free of carbon.

The best cleaning tool in the desert is compressed air, followed by a shaving brush when most the time you are cleaning off dust and not firing residue. No need to pour solvent over a weapon that hasn't been shot.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 7:03:20 AM EDT
soldiers know how to clean weapons. clean your weapon in the field every day. clean your weapon once when you get back for inspection. they know the diff. people shoot dry up here in ak. you just gotta wait a week for the scabs to heal.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 7:17:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:Of course, the inside of an 870 are a good deal less complicated then an AR.


Actually, there is a lot more going on inside the receiver and FCG of an 870 than there is in an AR.

Look at all the links, levers, cams, pins, and other moving parts inside an 870. Hardly any of that stuff in an AR.

The only difference is that practically all the combustion products go out the muzzle in an 870.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 7:56:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By infsqdldr:
soldiers know how to clean weapons. clean your weapon in the field every day. clean your weapon once when you get back for inspection. they know the diff. people shoot dry up here in ak. you just gotta wait a week for the scabs to heal.



You I know I was an instructor at FAOBC and from what I saw there they did just about what I tried to break Marines of doing. Scrubbing on the bolt with the chamber brush or using comet to make sure the carbon is all gone makes me believe they like the Marines are cleaning for inspection.

I guess old habits die hard, must get ready for the white glove inspection after all.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 8:51:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 8:52:21 AM EDT by SWO_daddy]

Originally Posted By STLRN: using comet to make sure the carbon is all gone

Holy shit........
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:44:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:

If you want your AR-15 to function dry, have it Black-T'd. This is a teflon coating that is applied to all parts, everywhere except the chamber and bore.




I had one of my AR's black T'd and you can certainly run it dry.

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:31:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JBritt:

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:

If you want your AR-15 to function dry, have it Black-T'd. This is a teflon coating that is applied to all parts, everywhere except the chamber and bore.




I had one of my AR's black T'd and you can certainly run it dry.




The AR will run dry. Once at the range after about 100 rounds I realized it seemed to be a little rough sounding, I noticed the bolt seemed to be cycling just a little slower. I then realized I had cleaned it out a few weeks before and had not lubed the carrier. I sprayed some G96 into the receiver. it then cycled better and faster. With good ammo, and a clean gun it will work fine for a while.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 10:44:36 AM EDT
Absolutely. I ran mine bone dry for 2 weeks while in Iraq in 2004. Godd news is it worked, bad news is when it did lock up because it was dry, it locked up so hard I had to beat the butt stock on the ground with a round in the chamber to get it to extract and eject the round.

If you need to run in sanding conditions, use a dry lube. I used Remington dry lube for most of my time in Iraq with zero issues.
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