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Posted: 1/8/2006 9:36:53 PM EDT
I just recently purchased a silencer for my M4. I still have to wait for the checks, etc, but I got the paper work started.

I looked on the ATF's website, but could not find any FAQ that related to my question, although I did find something slightly informative on Bushmaster's webpage.

I have a Bushy M4 with the 14.5" barrel, and the fixed muzzle break. So, I need to buy another barrel. Bushmaster says (on their page) that the ATF considers the muzzle break and barrel the same thing, so in order to be 16" compliant, their combined length must be 16".

Does this hold true for suppressors as well? My suppressor is 8", so could I buy the 11.5" barrel and still be ok and not have to register the weapon as a short barrel rifle? Or does this only hold true if the break/suppressor is permanently attached (like the Izzy break on the 14.5" barrel)?

I was hoping someone had this answered for them by the ATF already, and I didn't need to send than a letter, and wait for a long time for a reply.

Thanks,
H.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:40:41 PM EDT
in order for it to be legal overall length it has to be permanently attatched and equal to or greater than 16"
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:43:06 PM EDT
With a flash suppressor it must be fixed meening not removable, other wise it has to be registered as an SBR. If you have say, a 11.5'' barrel I would assume its allready registered, otherwise your asking for trouble.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 9:48:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
in order for it to be legal overall length it has to be permanently attatched and equal to or greater than 16"



Is there any company out there that would permanently attach it, or is it not considered possible to do that within the confines of the law?

Thanks,
H.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:17:50 PM EDT
Attaching a suppressor probably isnt a good idea being as how they do need regular individual mantanence.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:43:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By azhammer:
Attaching a suppressor probably isnt a good idea being as how they do need regular individual mantanence.



+1 and for lots of other reasons as well.



Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:57:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:

Originally Posted By azhammer:
Attaching a suppressor probably isnt a good idea being as how they do need regular individual mantanence.



+1 and for lots of other reasons as well.






+2
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 1:08:55 PM EDT
Haplo, what brand of suppressor did you buy, and who's your dealer? I'm in Indiana as well. Stop in and check out the Indiana Forum here on AR15.COM.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 4:59:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:
Haplo, what brand of suppressor did you buy, and who's your dealer? I'm in Indiana as well. Stop in and check out the Indiana Forum here on AR15.COM. hr


I got a Tactical Innovations silencer. This is my first Class 3 anything, so if I bought garbage, I guess I live and learn. :) I don't have it yet, since I just "bought" it yesterday, and still need to take my paperword to the Sheriff's office, then off to the ATF. The dealer was Class 3 Sales, in LaPorte, IN.

I have one of the 14.5" Bushy Barrels with the fixed Izzy break on the end, so I need to buy another barrel. I assume I could order a barrel from them that is threaded and thats OK now? They list them as pre-ban and post-ban on their website, but that doesn't apply anymore, correct? I'd rather just buy one threaded, than have to send off a barrel to be threaded.

I was considering doing the paperwork to get my lower approved as an SBR too, since my silencer will add 8" to my gun.

One of my friends has the 22LR upper for his AR15. He said you could use the same barrel (standard 223 barrel) for the 22, but its not as accurate. Is this correct? If so, that in turn would imply that I could use this silencer on my 22s as well, correct?

Thanks for all the info guys,
H.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:08:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 5:09:40 PM EDT by M4Madness]

Originally Posted By haplo:
They list them as pre-ban and post-ban on their website, but that doesn't apply anymore, correct?



Not for Indiana. A few states still have state-level AW bans, but we aren't one of them.


I was considering doing the paperwork to get my lower approved as an SBR too, since my silencer will add 8" to my gun.


You might as well -- it's only $200 more to do so. You could have the Sheriff sign both at the same time.


One of my friends has the 22LR upper for his AR15. He said you could use the same barrel (standard 223 barrel) for the 22, but its not as accurate. Is this correct?


You can use a .22LR conversion kit in your regular .223 barrel (since both are .224"), but a .22LR performs best with a slow twist rate of about 1-in-16". Also, if you shoot a lot of .22LR in a regular .223 barrel, you run the risk of leading up the gas port.


If so, that in turn would imply that I could use this silencer on my 22s as well, correct?


Yes, you could use a .223 suppressor on a .22LR, but not the opposite.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:16:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 5:22:25 PM EDT by CCW]
I've been thinking about this. What this world needs now is a silencer that gloves back over the long izzy that is used to make the 14.5" legal (the SEBR config). Now that I can't get one, I want one to try this with. The izzy stays on, just vents into a custom fit silencer. The SEBR with a custom silencer that slips over the izzy, maybe ties down to the M203 groove, shooting a subsonic fat bullet (maybe tungsten filled) with the 1 in 7" twist could be an engineered marvel for tactical entry. --ecologically correct, good stopping energy short range, and you could run it without waking the neighbors. One thing I don't know is if this setup would adversely affect the gas tube dynamics and upset the extract/feed timing. ---Comments? Is this just too weird?

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:18:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M4Madness:

Originally Posted By haplo:
They list them as pre-ban and post-ban on their website, but that doesn't apply anymore, correct?



Not for Indiana. A few states still have state-level AW bans, but we aren't one of them. h=85%

I was considering doing the paperwork to get my lower approved as an SBR too, since my silencer will add 8" to my gun.


You might as well -- it's only $200 more to do so. You could have the Sheriff sign both at the same time. h=85%

One of my friends has the 22LR upper for his AR15. He said you could use the same barrel (standard 223 barrel) for the 22, but its not as accurate. Is this correct?


You can use a .22LR conversion kit in your regular .223 barrel (since both are .224"), but a .22LR performs best with a slow twist rate of about 1-in-16". Also, if you shoot a lot of .22LR in a regular .223 barrel, you run the risk of leading up the gas port.


If so, that in turn would imply that I could use this silencer on my 22s as well, correct?


Yes, you could use a .223 suppressor on a .22LR, but not the opposite.


That was a quick reply.

Have you ever had a Tactical Innovation's silencer? I can live with myself if I made a mistake, and its nice to know if I made a mistake as well. hrough
I'm up in NE Indiana. You?

H.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:44:46 PM EDT
If you are going to integrate the suppresor with the barrel to have one stamp, then I would bother to get a letter of determination from ATF that is is cool, you most likely want to take the can apart for work/cleaning and want to ensure that they feel that enough of it stays on the barrel (permanently attached) to make the barrel and the bulk of the can one piece... it is only a letter and does not take that long.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:13:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By haplo:
That was a quick reply.

Have you ever had a Tactical Innovation's silencer? I can live with myself if I made a mistake, and its nice to know if I made a mistake as well. I need to spend some time digging through the forum a bit and learning about cleaning/maintainence of the silence too.

I'm up in NE Indiana. You?

H.



My 5.56 suppressor is an SRT Hurricane. You can read a couple of 5.56 suppressor tests here:

5.56 Suppressor Comparison Article

Silencertests.com Test Results

I'm about 75 miles south of Indy. Be sure to check out the Indiana Forum by clicking on this link:

www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=30
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:27:28 PM EDT
You seem a bit worried about the TAC-16 ??

Its by no means crap -- its not the quietest silencer out there, but then none of them really make an AR into a "silent" weapon. .223 is just a noisy round.

The TAC-16 is excellent value for money (IMHO ... probably why I bought one ), and has a big advantage over some of the others in that you can dismantle it for cleaning.

On a cost/db basis, you probably bought the best.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:27:38 PM EDT
Permanent attachment of a sound suppressor works just fine. It needs to be attached as per a permanent flash suppressor. If those methods are ok by the law, they will be fine for the sound suppressor also. The law does not care what you put on the end of your gun to get it to 16", just that it be "permanent" by their standards.

You do not need to take most cans apart for cleaning, in fact with most you cannot. You can still stand it in solvent every once in a while if you need to.

The only issue is that if you own an AR15 already, you can't own the short barrel even for a minute by the letter of the law. Attach the suppressor (weld, pin, etc) at your dealers before you buy the barrel and you are fine.

I live in a non-SBR state and have a raider on a 10.5 being built right now.

If you can get an SBR do it instead of the permanent attachment, you then have more options for what you can do later.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:27:57 PM EDT
If it is perm attached and the final length was more than 16" you should be ok. As others have noted you will probably, however, be wanting to remove it. Never really thought about a rig like that. Potentially one could design something so that it could be silver soldered at the rear 1/2x28 standard, and then the front face of the can scew off to clear the lead and carbon from the baffles. In fact, cans that come apart in this manner exist, so one could buy one of those and just silver solder the aft of it to the muzzle of the bbl. Pretty cool idea haplo.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:29:57 PM EDT
+ What ragnar said about cleaning it anyways ^
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 2:32:49 PM EDT
Nothing new under the Sun. "Gem Tech Halo" silencer gloves over the standard AR-15 FH. So, I suppose it would be no big trick to make one that gloves over whatever FH was permanently attached, including those that are used to keep the barrel legal.

Other opinions, as to subsonic ammo, claim that is not practical for an AR15, because slugs get too big to feed, or gas pressure for cycling extract/feed runs too low without gas tube mods. The "silenced" standard ammo 55-62gr (leaving the barrel supersonic) is said to sound like a naked 22LR rifle firing. Still a good thing, AFAIK.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 3:40:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_:
Permanent attachment of a sound suppressor works just fine. It needs to be attached as per a permanent flash suppressor. If those methods are ok by the law, they will be fine for the sound suppressor also. The law does not care what you put on the end of your gun to get it to 16", just that it be "permanent" by their standards.

You do not need to take most cans apart for cleaning, in fact with most you cannot. You can still stand it in solvent every once in a while if you need to.

The only issue is that if you own an AR15 already, you can't own the short barrel even for a minute by the letter of the law. Attach the suppressor (weld, pin, etc) at your dealers before you buy the barrel and you are fine.

I live in a non-SBR state and have a raider on a 10.5 being built right now.

If you can get an SBR do it instead of the permanent attachment, you then have more options for what you can do later.



Man, I remember the old rivet pack cans we used to soak clean... sometimes all we could get was diesel and if you did not get them *really* dry... well, I have "sneezed" more than a few suppressors

Just off the top of my head, I would say that a pretty big percentage of commercial suppressors can be taken apart... but just to serve as a precautionary note that if is can be disassembled, one would want to exercise some care in combining the SBR and Suppressor into one stamp.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 4:07:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2006 5:41:45 PM EDT by JosephR]
If you wanted a supressor built into a barrel, you'd be best off getting one custom made that way. They can be soooo much MORE efficient if that's the plan from the beginning.

How does this TI Supressor attach? If it threads onto your barrel, you are going to get off cheapest by buying a 16" no-ban barrel that's threaded for a Flash Hider. If you want to SBR your lower so you could get a shorter barrel, you'd have to pay another $200 tax stamp on top of a new barrel. I'd like to think I'd get a true 14.5" barrel but I might even go with 11.5" to really show off the SBR aspect

You won't be needing to clean lead out of your supressor. Most all ammo you will use will be FMJ anyway.



One of my friends has the 22LR upper for his AR15. He said you could use the same barrel (standard 223 barrel) for the 22, but its not as accurate. Is this correct? If so, that in turn would imply that I could use this silencer on my 22s as well, correct?



I don't know about his conversion kit and barrel but you CAN use your supressor on ANY other firearm as long as you don't start breaking other laws. That means if you have a Ruger 10/22, send that MoFo's barrel out to get threaded ASAP. You'll be able to have 10x the fun. You can even use it on your Walther P22 or Ruger if they are threaded correctly.
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