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Posted: 1/8/2006 10:03:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 10:27:34 AM EDT by DK-Prof]
I am officially done using XM193PD. I already decided to stop buying it about a year ago (since I realize it is just not worth it), but I still have thousands upon thousands of rounds of that stuff.

So I was shooting some today - testing my SBR, since I had a hiccup with it yesterday (after switching the bolt/carrier) and today it ran like a champ. Put about 200 rounds through it without the slightest problem.

I was shooting XM193 first, and then switched to XM193PD.

As far as I can tell, I was extremely lucky!! The first sign of the problem was that a round wouldn't chamber - about halfway through my final mag. When I tried it again, same thing - the carrier wouldn't go fully into battery. Since the most plausible explanation was a barrel obstruction just beyond the chamber, I pull out the carrier and look through - and lo and behold, only see blackness. No light at the end of that tunnel.

So there clearly seems to be a squib in there, and very close to the chamber. If that bullet had gone an inch further into the barrel, the next round would have chambered and I would have gotten a KB in my face!!

For the record, I did NOT notice any weaker recoil or sound with the previous round - and I am always very attentive when shooting XM193PD - and occasionally do get ones that feel or sound "weaker" - and always check the rifle before continuing.

That could EASILY have been an ugly situation. So I am counting my blessings - and I am NEVER using XM193PD again.

So, anyway - how do I get the squib out? Tap it out with a rod back toward the chamber (which is probably less than an inch), or tap it all the way through and out the muzzle?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:12:12 AM EDT
The less work you do inside of the bore the better... brass rod and tap it out the shortest route.

Just for S&G, I would scope the barrel if you have access to one? Also, it sounds like the round did not get into the profiled part of the barrel at all... but it never hurts to mic the OD of the barrel in a dozen spots to see if there was any bulging...
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:15:15 AM EDT
I will make you a good deal on the remaining thousands!!!

(That better than just saying ---send those messed up PDs to me for proper disposal!, right?)
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:15:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 10:16:57 AM EDT by gplg]
use a cleaning rod or a wooden dowl and tap it out.

You can send me the X193PD. I'll properly dispose of it for you

When I ordered a case, I went through them one by one and took out the really bad/fucked up cases. Had about 20 total.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:19:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
The less work you do inside of the bore the better... brass rod and tap it out the shortest route.



Thanks - I did that.

Took a couple of good whacks with the hammer to loosen it, and then it fell right out. Doesn't feel like it really travelled any distance in the barrel.


Originally Posted by gplg:
When I ordered a case, I went through them one by one and took out the really bad/fucked up cases. Had about 20 total.



I always do that as well.

So be warned - this round did NOT have any visible deformity or difference from other rounds when I sorted them.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:22:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
The less work you do inside of the bore the better... brass rod and tap it out the shortest route.



Thanks - I did that.

Took a couple of good whacks with the hammer to loosen it, and then it fell right out. Doesn't feel like it really travelled any distance in the barrel.


Originally Posted by gplg:
When I ordered a case, I went through them one by one and took out the really bad/fucked up cases. Had about 20 total.



I always do that as well.

So be warned - this round did NOT have any visible deformity or difference from other rounds when I sorted them.



Good to hear that it came out.

I was going to say the same thing, tap it back out with a rod.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:23:46 AM EDT
Propellant Deficient
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:39:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:
The less work you do inside of the bore the better... brass rod and tap it out the shortest route.



Thanks - I did that.

Took a couple of good whacks with the hammer to loosen it, and then it fell right out. Doesn't feel like it really travelled any distance in the barrel.


Originally Posted by gplg:
When I ordered a case, I went through them one by one and took out the really bad/fucked up cases. Had about 20 total.



I always do that as well.

So be warned - this round did NOT have any visible deformity or difference from other rounds when I sorted them.



By chance, on the last 1k o f PD I was 'sorting', I happened to spin a 'looks fine' round in my fingers and realized the damn bullet, while seated to the right depth on the cannule, could spin freely in the neck of the case.

After that, I went back through the 1k and found about 50 more that 'looked fine' but that had bullets loose enough to spin easily.

Sure seemed like squibs waiting to happen. I checked over a few other lots and didn't find anymore, or at least nothing like the 50/1k ration in that one lot...

The time outlay now to QC a case, even for blasting purposes, doesn't add up for me.... I've never had a problem YET, but seems that its more a matter of WHEN, not IF. Picking out crunched cases was one thing, but having to test even visualy ok rounds is not worth the risk.

Glad you caught the squib in time.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 10:45:33 AM EDT
Wanna sell the rest, Ive got time to weight the them.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 12:43:45 PM EDT
DK-Prof,

Are you saying that you had a squib resulting in a bullet sticking just past the chamber but somehow the rifle cycled? I'm not clear about what happened. It seems to me that the first sign of trouble should have been that the gun did not cycle inasmuch as the bullet lodged proximal to the gas port.

Sam
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:08:12 PM EDT
Im a bit puzzled,if it got stuck at the chambers throat or a little past how did the rifle cycle with out any gas reaching the port?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:08:58 PM EDT
In addition to visual inspection of the rounds. You should also weigh the rounds. It sounds like the cartridge didn't have enough powder in it (which might have been why it was rejected into the PD batch).

It is severely uncool for Federal to release these types of rejects into the commercial market.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:15:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 11:14:04 PM EDT by CavVet]
So what would have happened if this round had been chambered??



Yes, its PD ammo, and no I have never bought any of it. I got this out a case a guy back in Ohio found.


Anyone remember the pretzel???

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:17:03 PM EDT
If the cartridge didnt have enough power how did the rifle cycle?He said no didference in recoil and it was only discovered when the next round wouldnt chamber.The bullet has to pass the port so the system can get gas right? if Im not mistaken the round lodged before it reached the port how else would the next round not chamber because it hit the lodged bullet or am I missing something in direct operation here?
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:28:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 1:48:15 PM EDT by Zarathustra1]
Out of curiousity, because I have no idea...

How far on average does the blast of the primer alone send the bullet down the bore? In a squib round that is, or before the powder fully ignites in a normal cartridge.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:44:53 PM EDT
I have had rounds from "top-name, kewl-ammunition-of-the-week, you-just ain't-shit-if-you-don't-shoot-this" brand-name ammuniton that had little or no propellant loaded (i.e., squibs).

If its made by man, it can be made screwed up.
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:38:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2006 2:39:21 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By Samuel_Hoggson:
DK-Prof,

Are you saying that you had a squib resulting in a bullet sticking just past the chamber but somehow the rifle cycled? I'm not clear about what happened. It seems to me that the first sign of trouble should have been that the gun did not cycle inasmuch as the bullet lodged proximal to the gas port.

Sam





Im a bit puzzled,if it got stuck at the chambers throat or a little past how did the rifle cycle with out any gas reaching the port?





If the cartridge didnt have enough power how did the rifle cycle?He said no didference in recoil and it was only discovered when the next round wouldnt chamber.The bullet has to pass the port so the system can get gas right? if Im not mistaken the round lodged before it reached the port how else would the next round not chamber because it hit the lodged bullet or am I missing something in direct operation here?



That's a damn good question!

I don't know. In fact, I don't have the slightest idea.

I've wondered about that myself - since my understanding also is that gas pressure in the gas tube is needed to "unlock" the bolt, and allow it to travel backwards. I've inspected the bolt and chamber/breech face, and everything looks fine - so I don't think there was any kind of "blowback" that would have been able to puch the bolt/carrier back without it unlocking.

So if a bullet is underpowered, and fired a round that lodges in the barrel before it reaches the gas port, the bolt will stay "locked" in place, with the pressure contained inside the barrel and casing, until someone manually operates the bolt?


Is it possible that my memory is flawed? Yes - I've got a terrible memory, and was somewhat shocked to discover the squib, and realize just HOW CLOSE I had come to firing a round into a blocked barrel. Maybe my memory is inaccurate.

But, as much as it doesn't seem to make sense, I could have sworn that I did not hear an unsual report or weak recoil.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:49:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Samuel_Hoggson:
DK-Prof,

Are you saying that you had a squib resulting in a bullet sticking just past the chamber but somehow the rifle cycled? I'm not clear about what happened. It seems to me that the first sign of trouble should have been that the gun did not cycle inasmuch as the bullet lodged proximal to the gas port.

Sam





Im a bit puzzled,if it got stuck at the chambers throat or a little past how did the rifle cycle with out any gas reaching the port?





If the cartridge didnt have enough power how did the rifle cycle?He said no didference in recoil and it was only discovered when the next round wouldnt chamber.The bullet has to pass the port so the system can get gas right? if Im not mistaken the round lodged before it reached the port how else would the next round not chamber because it hit the lodged bullet or am I missing something in direct operation here?



That's a damn good question!

I don't know. In fact, I don't have the slightest idea.

I've wondered about that myself - since my understanding also is that gas pressure in the gas tube is needed to "unlock" the bolt, and allow it to travel backwards. I've inspected the bolt and chamber/breech face, and everything looks fine - so I don't think there was any kind of "blowback" that would have been able to puch the bolt/carrier back without it unlocking.

So if a bullet is underpowered, and fired a round that lodges in the barrel before it reaches the gas port, the bolt will stay "locked" in place, with the pressure contained inside the barrel and casing, until someone manually operates the bolt?


Is it possible that my memory is flawed? Yes - I've got a terrible memory, and was somewhat shocked to discover the squib, and realize just HOW CLOSE I had come to firing a round into a blocked barrel. Maybe my memory is inaccurate.

But, as much as it doesn't seem to make sense, I could have sworn that I did not hear an unsual report or weak recoil.



Is it possible that you may have chambered the next round yourself?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 10:03:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nwammoguy:

Is it possible that you may have chambered the next round yourself?



If the rifle will not cycle without the bullet passing the gas port, then not only is it possible that I manually chambered the next round (or rather tried to), but it seems like the only explanation. So much for my memory.

Which seems really weird, because the rifle had been running perfectly for almost 200 rounds, and I would think that a failure to eject (or even move the bolt) would have been really noticable, and I would have stopped to inspect the rifle before even trying to chamber the next round.

This is one of those examples where a "replay" button would be really nice in life, to go back and see what exactly the sequence of events was!

Just for my own piece of mind, I am going to start another thread on this whole cycling/pressure issue.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 10:49:32 AM EDT
I bought one case of XM855PD of which I have shot about 100-200 rounds. Before loading any of the ammo in mags I visually inspected every last round and made sure they would pass through a Lyman cartridge case gauge. I culled less that twenty by this inspection method. However when I am loading mags with this stuff I roll each and every round to detect any noticeable wobble. I have culled probably twenty more by this method. The ammo has shot fine and has been plenty accurate for my needs, but I'm going to keep in mind what happened to DK.

Considering what I paid for the ammo it was worth it, but the prices that it's going for now makes it a lot less attractive when you have to go through this detailed inspection process.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 10:57:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:03:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By nwammoguy:

Is it possible that you may have chambered the next round yourself?



If the rifle will not cycle without the bullet passing the gas port, then not only is it possible that I manually chambered the next round (or rather tried to), but it seems like the only explanation. So much for my memory.

Which seems really weird, because the rifle had been running perfectly for almost 200 rounds, and I would think that a failure to eject (or even move the bolt) would have been really noticable, and I would have stopped to inspect the rifle before even trying to chamber the next round.

This is one of those examples where a "replay" button would be really nice in life, to go back and see what exactly the sequence of events was!

Just for my own piece of mind, I am going to start another thread on this whole cycling/pressure issue.



DK-Prof,

Don't be too hard on yourself. You're not alone. I personally witnessed a guy damn near blow up a Sturmgewehr with one of his 8mm Kurz handloads after lodging a squib. A friend saw him repeatedly trying to get the action closed and stopped him from KBing his prize possession. You shoulda seen the expression on his face when he realized what he had almost done. At the very same MG shoot a guy farther down the line had the exact same thing happen with an M2HB (think about that one!!) and was, likewise, stopped by someone else.

Anyone can screw up. The important thing is to learn from it.

Sam
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:27:22 PM EDT
This is dangerous ammo! Everyone with any "PD" ammo send it to me immediately to be disposed of properly! I'm not kid… really send it too me… really!
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 2:48:47 PM EDT
If the UPS store was willing to ship ammo, I would in all seriousness be perfectly willing to ship it to those people in this thread that have volunteered to "take it off my hands" - but unfortunately they do not, and I'm too lazy to find the UPS depot/hub and have to take it there.

Maybe I'll try to trade it to a local gun store or something.



I seriously have NO INTENTION of ever putting that stuff in any of my rifles again.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:03:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
If the UPS store was willing to ship ammo, I would in all seriousness be perfectly willing to ship it to those people in this thread that have volunteered to "take it off my hands" - but unfortunately they do not, and I'm too lazy to find the UPS depot/hub and have to take it there. . .




I see you live in Missouri. Maybe I could pick it up from you . . .
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:09:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
I seriously have NO INTENTION of ever putting that stuff in any of my rifles again.




[Drummer from Spinal Tap] Yeah, man, but what are the chances of it happening again? [/Drummer from Spinal Tap]

I had a squib in a Sig P220 while practising some rapid fire drills, but managed to NOT pull the trigger after the bad round. It'll put the fear of God in you.

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 3:52:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SPTiger:
...However when I am loading mags with this stuff I roll each and every round to detect any noticeable wobble...



I do this with all surplus ammo (gratefully I never jumped on the PD bandwagon), especially the ADCOM M855 and Radway Green 5.56. I do 5 rds at a time and it makes it easier to notice any defects.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:28:23 PM EDT
What do you mean you "roll each and every round"? Does this mean you roll the bullet to make sure it is not loose? When sorting through rounds to make sure they are safe to shoot what other tests would one perform? Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:31:34 PM EDT
Lay 'em flat on a table and roll them together while looking closely at the top of the case and bullet for abnormalities.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 5:36:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:16:56 PM EDT
Can I just press on the head of the bullet, and if it goes into the case then I know it's a bad round. Or twist the bullet with my fingers and if it turns I know it's a bad round too?
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:27:36 PM EDT
Glad to know it didn't go KABOOM on you!
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:45:27 PM EDT
you got lucky, I still think q3131a is the best ammo. I also have some PD but not as much as some of you guys.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 7:56:25 PM EDT
I had a squib with some factory reloads in my P-85. Luckily, the slide wouldn't go forward, the bullet was just ahead of the chamber. It tappped right out. I then noticed some powder in the bag and found an empty case and a dislodged bullet. The manufacturer didn't crimp the rounds properly. I could pull some of the bullets out with my fingers.

I only have a few hundred rounds of PD left, I'm just using it as blasting ammo until I get into my good ammo stocks.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 8:20:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 8:25:44 PM EDT by DaveM4P99]
just to clarify, is this the stuff?

www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=163180

because i bought 500 rounds of this stuff, and I went through and pulled 20 or so that had cracks or dents (mostly near the neck). The brass is really ugly too. looks nothing like the picture.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 8:47:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
just to clarify, is this the stuff?

www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=163180

because i bought 500 rounds of this stuff, and I went through and pulled 20 or so that had cracks or dents (mostly near the neck). The brass is really ugly too. looks nothing like the picture.



Thats's not exactly the same - but sounds like a similar type of deal.

These are marked XM193PD on the box (brown cardboard square boxes, with 500 rounds loose in each) - and usually say "For Training Use" on the box somewhere as well.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 8:52:30 PM EDT
Hey DK,

Just to let you know, I had a Squib the other day with WWB ammo from Wally world

It can happen to brand

Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:03:34 PM EDT
just use wolf

if i want to use junk ammo, i only want to pay $100/1000

the quality on the wolf is generally very good
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:49:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 9:49:55 PM EDT by KCMojo]

Originally Posted By TacticalOpsAR:
just use wolf

if i want to use junk ammo, i only want to pay $100/1000

the quality on the wolf is generally very good



+1
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