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Posted: 1/2/2006 11:30:56 PM EDT
Bladed, head and back mostly erect , stock on shoulder

or

Stooped over, ass out, squared away, stock almost centered on chest

I am seeing quite a few people using the stooped over position and I have to say I find it very uncomfortable and tiring. It's a muscular position as opposed to skeletal like the former. My accuracy drops quick with stooped over due to fatigue and poor support. What is everyone using for a stance these days.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 11:46:40 PM EDT
Weapon held high overhead turned sideways
while spraying and screaming " Die Mother Fucker Die !!! "

No Wait .......

I mean choice #1
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 12:04:48 AM EDT
normally if im just standing in one spot then ill do the first one but if im moving and shooting then ill do number 2
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 12:08:56 AM EDT
SWAT mode
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 12:18:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:
Weapon held high overhead turned sideways
while spraying and screaming " Die Mother Fucker Die !!!
"

No Wait .......

I mean choice #1





Link Posted: 1/3/2006 12:42:43 AM EDT
I just realized I havent shot standing in awhile.

Lately I've been sitting indian style, using a sling for support.

But when I do shoot standing, it's a modified version of choice #1.
Kind of hard to explain, I'll post a pic If I can get one...
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 2:56:36 AM EDT
Crouched down,left elbow resting on my left knee.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:16:59 AM EDT
I don't use body armor and carbord is a non dangerous game so all shooting is w/ rifle on shoulder.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 3:44:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 3:46:21 AM EDT by MrKasab]
Mabey someone has some inside information on this, but didnt the chest square to the enemy stance come about from the use of armor plates? The theory being if you have to take a round to the torso, its best to take it in the chest where you have the additional armor.

edit: I was always told that during reflexive fire drills, if your back is hurting, your doing it correctly.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:01:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:26:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 4:27:12 AM EDT by Stickman]
Rifle position depends on what I'm doing. I shoot more than 2 different ways standing up.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:33:29 AM EDT
As stated it depends on the desired effect on what I'm shooting. For nonlife threating competition, hunting use #1. For CQB work then #2. Then for firing 7.62mm guns full auto standing modified lower/forward#2.

CD
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:40:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 4:43:40 AM EDT by TheSaint2004]
Beirut Overhand.

Where is that African War Picture thread when you need it


But seriously I stand sideways to my target and rest my elbow close to my chest.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:12:39 AM EDT
Neither. The M4 isn't an MP5, so I don't shoot it with that stance. I'm fairly square to the target, but with my support side foot forward and my weight forward. After taking classes from Larry Vickers, I adopted this stance.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:13:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
It depends on what rifle I'm shooting and what I'm practicing for.

When working with the 4H kids in 3 position rifle, I use choice number 1. This is the best choice for this type of shooting.

When shooting my AR and practicing/training to fight with my rifle, I use choice number 2. This is the best setup for this type of shooting.

If you are using choice number 1 while training to fight with your rifle. Well, you're just wasting your time.




This is what I use
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:18:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stony275:
Neither. The M4 isn't an MP5, so I don't shoot it with that stance. I'm fairly square to the target, but with my support side foot forward and my weight forward. After taking classes from Larry Vickers, I adopted this stance.



+1

I have been following LAV's advise ever since taking that class.

It's a more aggressive stance and can get tiring over the course of a day, but it does offer far superior control over the weapon.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:49:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:12:56 AM EDT
Any position as long as:
1) I'm standing. In prone I rock back and forth like a seesaw on my belly.
2) I'm alive.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:28:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 7:38:31 AM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
It depends on what rifle I'm shooting and what I'm practicing for.

When working with the 4H kids in 3 position rifle, I use choice number 1. This is the best choice for this type of shooting.

When shooting my AR and practicing/training to fight with my rifle, I use choice number 2. This is the best setup for this type of shooting.

If you are using choice number 1 while training to fight with your rifle. Well, you're just wasting your time.



Can you elaborate on why choice number one is bad for fighting. I usually go shooting with some friends that are Iraq war vets (marines mostly) and they all shoot bladed and erect, stock on shoulder. When I pull up military images almost every soldier shoots in this stance

The stooped position seems more popular in carbine classes and among LEO

Seems to be the rifle version of isoceles vs weaver.


Originally Posted By MrKasab:
Mabey someone has some inside information on this, but didnt the chest square to the enemy stance come about from the use of armor plates? The theory being if you have to take a round to the torso, its best to take it in the chest where you have the additional armor.

edit: I was always told that during reflexive fire drills, if your back is hurting, your doing it correctly.



Would seem like a double edge sword. Standing square exposes more of your torso, which gives a person a bigger target to hit including your head, arms and legs, plus a wide torso. I've heard the same thing as you about taking a round to plate armor, but I have reservations about exposing more of myself to get shot at
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:02:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MrKasab:
Mabey someone has some inside information on this, but didnt the chest square to the enemy stance come about from the use of armor plates? The theory being if you have to take a round to the torso, its best to take it in the chest where you have the additional armor.

edit: I was always told that during reflexive fire drills, if your back is hurting, your doing it correctly.



Would seem like a double edge sword. Standing square exposes more of your torso, which gives a person a bigger target to hit including your head, arms and legs, plus a wide torso. I've heard the same thing as you about taking a round to plate armor, but I have reservations about exposing more of myself to get shot at

The "square on" stance comes from wanting to keep more of the body armor between you and the source. The weakest part of body armor is the sides, arm holes, strap points, etc. Standing "blade style is fine if you have the luxury of a hardened vehicle between you and the incoming rounds. Watch police tactical teams move and they keep a "square" presentation of their torso to the target.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:03:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 8:05:45 AM EDT by Big-FED]
The "square on" stance comes from wanting to keep more of the body armor between you and the source. The weakest part of body armor is the sides, arm holes, strap/overlap points, etc. Standing "blade" style is fine if you have the luxury of a hardened vehicle between you and the incoming rounds. Watch police tactical teams move and they keep a "square" presentation of their torso to the target.

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:24:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
It depends on what rifle I'm shooting and what I'm practicing for.

Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:34:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 9:19:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
It depends on what rifle I'm shooting and what I'm practicing for.

When working with the 4H kids in 3 position rifle, I use choice number 1. This is the best choice for this type of shooting.

When shooting my AR and practicing/training to fight with my rifle, I use choice number 2. This is the best setup for this type of shooting.

If you are using choice number 1 while training to fight with your rifle. Well, you're just wasting your time.



Can you elaborate on why choice number one is bad for fighting. I usually go shooting with some friends that are Iraq war vets (marines mostly) and they all shoot bladed and erect, stock on shoulder. When I pull up military images almost every soldier shoots in this stance

The stooped position seems more popular in carbine classes and among LEO

Seems to be the rifle version of isoceles vs weaver.


Originally Posted By MrKasab:
Mabey someone has some inside information on this, but didnt the chest square to the enemy stance come about from the use of armor plates? The theory being if you have to take a round to the torso, its best to take it in the chest where you have the additional armor.

edit: I was always told that during reflexive fire drills, if your back is hurting, your doing it correctly.



Would seem like a double edge sword. Standing square exposes more of your torso, which gives a person a bigger target to hit including your head, arms and legs, plus a wide torso. I've heard the same thing as you about taking a round to plate armor, but I have reservations about exposing more of myself to get shot at




If your buddies are shooting this way, it is because they were taught to do it that way. If you're at the range shooting, then it is fine to shoot that way. I use this position when shooting too.

When I practice/train with my carbine, I use the fighting stance. Yes, if you're wearing body armor, it helps give you the most protection. There is more to it then that. By bringing the rifle in towards your center, you're getting it to where it will point better for you. It also helps control the rifle while shooting rapidly. Plus this stance also helps bounce in the rifle when moving. Try moving and shooting with while shooting in the first position and then the second. You'll see a major difference between the two.

Yes the second choice is not as comfortable at the first. Of course, it is like any other shooting position. When it's new, it takes awhile to get used to it. Once you're used to this position, you'll find that it is the best choice for fighting with a rifle.

Don't take my word for it, try the different stances yourself. Try putting several or more hours in with the second choice, and you'll be able to see what I'm talking about.




Other benefits of the "fighting stance" is that its easier to move when your upper mass is facing the target, which you should constantly be doing in a firefight.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 9:25:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 9:27:31 AM EDT by SSeric02]
When I first started shooting pistols and rifles I used a Weaver type position for both to keep it simple. After I started shooting pistols and carbines for serious work, I found that under stress and fatigue and while wearing body armor and LBV it was much more difficult to be consistent with the push/pull of Weaver or with a bladed rifle stance.

Consistency is of course the key word to success in shooting, be it Free Pistol or shooting bad guys. So, under the advice and training of several folks I worked with i switched to predominantly shooting Isosceles and of course to keep it simple I also began using a similar stance (choice number 2 in the poll) when shooting carbines. More is less as some say.

Proper conditioning through exercise and stretching is of course the key to combatting the lower back and hamstring pain.

ETA: I am ABSOLUTELY NOT trying to start a freakin Weaver v. Iso debate, so please don't take it as such.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 9:48:58 AM EDT
If it is a one way range... I have alot in common with these shooters:












Link Posted: 1/3/2006 11:33:03 AM EDT
The square on to target does not only apply to people with armor. If you take a shot straight on you will only have a single lung puctured and you will probably survive with propper, fast medical attention. If you are bladed, a lung shot will puncture both lungs and you will not a have a good chance of surviving if both lungs are puctured by a single bullet.
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