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Posted: 1/1/2006 10:57:16 PM EDT
The 5.56 is an effective round, when used within its envelope. When used out of a SBR, fragmentation range and effectiveness are drastically reduced. While the Mk262 is an effective interim solution, it is not an acceptible permanent solution. Should we engage DPRK, China or Iran, all of which could be considered "imminent" threats, the use of this round would likely be "illegal" for ground warefare, though JAG would probably issue a decree legitimizing its use.
If not, another solution would be required for increasing the effectiveness of the M4 with M855.

Average soldiers do not require the capability to engage targets past 300 meters, as at this range artillery or air support are much more effective options, so increasing bullet size isn't nescessarily an immediate issue. Its something that warrants consideration, but not nescessarily immediatly. I would hypothesize that increasing the barrel length to 16 inches would be an effective and economic solution. Increasing barrel length to 16 inches would increase fragmentation range to 95 meters instead of 50. While capability beyond 300 meters isn't

necessary for a carbine, effectiveness beyond 50 meters is. Adding the extra inch and a half wouldn't be much of an impediment to the majority of end users, and for those specializing in MOUT and CQB, current 14.5 inch weapons would still be in the system. IMO, it makes much more sense to issue the M4 with a modifyed bayonet, or without one at all than to shorten the barrel to accomidate a relic of Napoleonic warfare. If we can issue a specific BFA for the M4, then

why not a specific bayonet for a 16 inch version? Besides being shorter and making use of the standard bayonet, the 14.5 offers nothing in the way of terminal ballistics over the 16 inch tube.
The 14.5 inch barrel while compact, has very little usable range, atleast compared to 20 or 16
inch barrels. It seems like adding an inch and a half would be a very easy way to increase the capability of existing rounds without being detremental to the weapons performance. What do you think?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:07:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 11:15:35 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]
6.8 SPC

since soldier rarely do not engage targets past 300m (which is not always that true, especially in Afghanistan recently), why not make the rifles shorter for CQB work?

the 6.8 can do the same close in work that the 5.56 can do and then some; .308 and .50BMG will take care of the rest

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:09:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 11:09:47 PM EDT by Combat_Jack]
People who kill people report that 5.56 makes bad guys fall down and stop breathing even past its theoretical fragmentation range. Perhaps we are looking for a solution to a problem which has been dramatically overstated?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:16:54 PM EDT
The difference between 14.5 & 16 inch barrels with M855 is LESS than 100 fps. Not worth the effort.


Lem
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:20:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:21:14 PM EDT
Or they could go back to 55 grain, which fragments up to 100 meters from a 14.5 inch barrel, or they could use a match round with even better performance - both of which would be easier than going to 6.8 or 6.5.

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:24:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
People who kill people report that 5.56 makes bad guys fall down and stop breathing even past its theoretical fragmentation range. Perhaps we are looking for a solution to a problem which has been dramatically overstated?

YUP....(now...where the hell did i stash the rest of them m14 mags?)........
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:27:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 11:28:15 PM EDT by Skyssx]
How would Mk262 be deemed "illegal"?

Why not go with a midlength gas system on a 16" barrel? Reduce FTE, keep a cleaner gun and keep the same bayonet.

Voted 5.56 is fine, leave it alone.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:28:52 PM EDT
I think the 5.56 is fine. I figure that if I am shot in center mass I am not going to be in the mood to fight. The time this kind of thinking might not be used though is the current situation in Iraq where we have dickheads blowing themselves up and they are willing and ready to die.

Think about what that bullet is doing though. For example, we'll say a Marine shoots an insurgent in the center mass at a long distance with his M16A4. The bullet does not fragment however. That bullet will either smack a rib and send rib fragments ripping through the insurgent's chest. Or the bullet will go between the ribs and hit the heart, lungs, liver, etc. The bullet hits the heart and the insurgent is going to drop on the spot. The Marine hit lungs and the insurgent isn't going to live long.

Plus, there are usually multiple Marines shooting at the same insurgent. So you are going to have multiple 5.56 rounds tearing the insurgents body apart.

Another advantage is the 5.56 is cheaper to make.

Also, the 5.56 is lighter so the troops can carry more of them with less holding them down. They already have enough to carry and don't need ammunition weighing them down.

In the long ranges in Afghanistan, there is almost always a designated marksman around carrying an M14.


I'm not sure about the rules of warfare we are restricted by. Anyone know what the rules are against the soft point bullets that mushroom out?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:31:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
www.strangepersons.com/images/content/8531.jpg



Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:06:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TylerM_8:
The bullet hits the heart and the insurgent is going to drop on the spot.



The average person running on adrenaline or any self induced drug has an average 10-15 seconds to react after a direct hit to the heart. The only way to really drops someone is to hit the nervouse system (spinal cord) or use .50BMG.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:32:35 AM EDT
I would like to see more widespread use of the 77 grainers, especialy becuase i would like to use them instead of the 62 grainers and I would need to drug deal for them :D
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:14:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Xenogy:

Originally Posted By TylerM_8:
The bullet hits the heart and the insurgent is going to drop on the spot.



The average person running on adrenaline or any self induced drug has an average 10-15 seconds to react after a direct hit to the heart. The only way to really drops someone is to hit the nervouse system (spinal cord) or use .50BMG.



There are three ways to stop someone.

Psychological: Pull a gun, shoot a guy, whatever, and he decides he doesn't want to play this game anymore.

Physiological (immediate): Shots to the central nervous system, spinal cord, or brain that destroy the targets ability to fight, by causing death or paralysis.

Exsangination/Suffocation: A shot to the heart, lungs, artery or other organs, causing death or incapactitation via blood or fluid loss, or suffocation. Death is not immediate and the fight is not immediately over.

Gary Roberts tells a story of a sailor who was shot by an ND with a .50 and then attempted to beat the shit out of the negligent sailor. He recovered.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:32:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TylerM_8:

I'm not sure about the rules of warfare we are restricted by. Anyone know what the rules are against the soft point bullets that mushroom out?



The restriction is by the Hauge convention, and only applies to signatories. So legally one may use soft points against terrorists, or non-unformed combatants. The JAG office issues rulings on what is allowed (for DOD) in what situations.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:46:44 PM EDT
............not geneva?..........i thought the soft point issue was a very old resolution.......
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:15:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
The 5.56 is an effective round, when used within its envelope. When used out of a SBR, fragmentation range and effectiveness are drastically reduced. While the Mk262 is an effective interim solution, it is not an acceptible permanent solution. Should we engage DPRK, China or Iran, all of which could be considered "imminent" threats, the use of this round would likely be "illegal" for ground warefare, though JAG would probably issue a decree legitimizing its use.



WTF? MK262 has been declared land warfare legal for years. What alternate universe do you live in?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:38:43 PM EDT
Granted, a distinction has been made between an "open tip bullet" and a true HP, citing the difference between the Match King and Game King bullets. While I am familiar with the difference between an open tip match bullet and a HP, I felt that this report over stated the difference. If the open tip offered nothing in the way of improved terminal ballistics, why bother? There are non-

open tip, non HP bullets that offer similar accuracy, if not identical. If you maintain that the open tip does nothing to improve the lethality of the 77 SMK projectile, what does? Its mass alone?
I am also familiar with JAG's finding reguarding the use of true HP bullets against terrorists. This finding makes my initial query moot. In the war on terror, the gloves are off and they are not protected by Geneva or Haugue. HP bullets are legal to use against terrorists....No doubt about it.

However, Hezbollah can't complain to the Red Cross or the UN about the United States violating the Hague accord, since we really aren't a party to it in the first place, but mostly because they are an evil terrorist group that deserves far worse than HP ammo...like the Hbomb. China, DPRK or Iran can lobby and would likely do so if the generally respected laws of ground warefare are infringed upon. You may remember when issue was raised about the legality of the Soviet 5.45x39

round when it debuted it Afghanistan. This was eventually settled, as it is a FMJ round and 5.56 M193 will produce just as grisly wounds. These findings were the genesis of "humane" rounds used by Sweeden, and some other pussies.*At the time they developed their humane rounds, they were testing them using the AK5 with 1/12 twist barrels...a 63 grain bullet hitting you sideways is far from humane, an oversight that has since been corrected* In any event, American support for a conflict is fickle. Our enemy's are always looking for ways to humiliate us and use propaganada to weaken public support. The perceived use of "illegal" ammo woud certainly give them the fodder

they need for such a task. While JAG would find a way to justifty the use of any effective or popular weapon to save American lives*which is exactly what they should do* China or DPRK may not agree with JAG's findings. My point was simply that everyone must accept and follow the commonly excepted rules of ground warefare fully, or not at all. If we don't follow the rules reguarding accetible ammo, why should our enemies follow the rules about humane treatment of POW's....a rule we having been shattering since WW2. A conflict with an enemy like Iran, China or DPRK that will actually be able to stand up to us, for a day or two, will be much different than Desert Storm and the next major conflict is coming and we have a finite amount of time to fix the problems with our military/weapons that have presented themselves during OIF.

Furthermore, if you are correct in supposing that the 1.5 inch difference is only good for 100 fps no matter the ammo/lot, then that 100 fps is good for an extra 50 meters of fragmentation range, according to the Ammo Oracle.....An extra 50 meters of range and effectiveness with existing ammo and caliber is a good thing. A midlength gas system with a 16 inch barrel would be even better. A 16 inch midlength or piston M4 would be an excellent adition to the M4 line. If your life was on the line, you would at least want to have maximum effectiveness to 100 meters, wouldn't you? Perhaps the gain isn't significant to warrant total replacement or upgrade, but it is significant enough to specify a 16 inch barrel on the next contract. Again, when 5.56 is used inside its envelope, its extremely effective. Outside of that enevelope, its a 22 mag. With a current M4 with M855 that envelope ends at 50 meters.

In response to Alpha Ghost, we prepared a report supporting the use of 6.8 SPC for SBR's, especially those which are to be used with a can. We advocated the procurement of CQBR's with a 10.5 inch barrel chambered for 6.8 SPC to be used with or have availible a Surefire suppressor*an amazing piece of equipment* Using 6.8 SPC in this capacity allows soldiers to have an extremely compact weapon with superior lethality and range when compared to other short barreld 5.56 platforms. While its certainly possible to make hits with a 10.5 inch 5.56 weapon at 100 meters, terminal ballistics will be poor. Out of a SBR at this distance, 6.8 SPC will offer improved lethality, especially when used with suppressor rounds, of which 5.56 versions lack sufficient lethality.
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