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Posted: 12/31/2005 2:08:05 PM EDT
I'd like to hear some thoughts on what you guys prefer in barrels. Stainless Steel or Chrome Lined and WHY?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:33:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1000yds:
I'd like to hear some thoughts on what you guys prefer in barrels. Stainless Steel or Chrome Lined and WHY?



Stainless Steel = Paper punch...

Chrome Lined = Work, combat or SHTF...
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:39:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By 1000yds:
I'd like to hear some thoughts on what you guys prefer in barrels. Stainless Steel or Chrome Lined and WHY?



Stainless Steel = Paper punch...

Chrome Lined = Work, combat or SHTF...




Yup, pretty much. Stainless barrels tend to be mre accurate - both as a function of the lack of chrome lining and ease of machining and the fact that most stainless barrels are match grade barrels.

Chrome lined will last longer, still be very corrosion resistant, and handle the heat of rapid/full auto fire better. However, chrome lined barrels will generally be slightly less accurate. Not likely to be a big deal unless you are looking at extreme accuracy from the bench. For a serious rifle for work, combat, or SHTF, chrome lined would be a better choice. If you are looking for a paper puncher or varmint rifle where very fine accuracy is critical I would choose the stainless.


-K
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:44:20 PM EDT
Is it true that stainless barrels hold up better when steel case ammo is used?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:52:11 PM EDT
Stainless (depending on the type) can be a great choice and has found its way to many of the current special application wepaons in military use, for my personal plinker and knock-around gun stainless seems to do what I want very well.

Hard chrome is a bit dated really and not nearly as good as NiB, Nye-Carb or other choices, but chromed barrels are much easier to find.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:00:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:12:33 PM EDT
Stainless usually leads to a more accurate barrel because the nature of the metallurgy. Stainless, especially 416, is one of the most completely and perfectly blended metal alloys out there. Chromoly is not very well blended, so in an unlined barrel the bullet will be passing over different concentrations of metal: A patch of chromium, then a patch where the molybdenum is in higher concentration, etc. The result is different wear patterns inside the barrel. That's why a worn out chromolly barrel will have a curious bare patch somewhere inside causing keyholing. Stainless does not wear like this, it wears evenly so accuracy is preserved.
The chrome lining does a lot for corrosion resistance and cleaning, but it also gives a slick and uniform surface for the bullet to pass over, so it wears better than unlined chromoly.

Soak a piece of chromoly steel in water overnight and watch over time as the rust develops. It will show you the particular blend pattern on the exposed part. It won't rust over uniformly, but will attack the more corrosion prone metals first.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:12:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
The old school thought that SS barrels are for high power matches only are OVER! You will find a good number of SS barrels being used by our Military SF troops (Recce/SPR/CQB). Most of the 10-8 guys are running Noveske SS barrels as well (and they can have anything they want).

I personally doubt that I will EVER buy another chrome lined barrel.



C4

www.GRTactical.com


Looks like he uses Pac-Nor rifled blanks. What does Noveske offer that one can't get from Pac-Nor, Krieger, Lilja, Hart, or other well-established custom barrel maker?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:32:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:10:28 PM EDT
Very Interesting.

Hey guys, HAPPY NEW YEAR ..bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,­bang,bang,...bang! have a very HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:17:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:
stainless



I've got one of his (Steve's) SS barrels and it's great!
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:28:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 4:30:55 PM EDT by Gunzilla]

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:


Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
The old school thought that SS barrels are for high power matches only are OVER! You will find a good number of SS barrels being used by our Military SF troops (Recce/SPR/CQB). Most of the 10-8 guys are running Noveske SS barrels as well (and they can have anything they want).

I personally doubt that I will EVER buy another chrome lined barrel.



C4

www.GRTactical.com


Looks like he uses Pac-Nor rifled blanks. What does Noveske offer that one can't get from Pac-Nor, Krieger, Lilja, Hart, or other well-established custom barrel maker?



Grant... see, the last day of the year and we agree on something! Happy New Year!

Noveske is not a barrel maker, he turns Pac-Nor barrels.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 4:38:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunzilla:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:


Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
The old school thought that SS barrels are for high power matches only are OVER! You will find a good number of SS barrels being used by our Military SF troops (Recce/SPR/CQB). Most of the 10-8 guys are running Noveske SS barrels as well (and they can have anything they want).

I personally doubt that I will EVER buy another chrome lined barrel.



C4

www.GRTactical.com


Looks like he uses Pac-Nor rifled blanks. What does Noveske offer that one can't get from Pac-Nor, Krieger, Lilja, Hart, or other well-established custom barrel maker?



Grant... see, the last day of the year and we agree on something! Happy New Year!

Noveske is not a barrel maker, he turns Pac-Nor barrels.


Since Pac Nor will turn their own blanks any way one likes, what is unique about Noveske? That he integrates good barrels into quality uppers?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 6:00:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
The old school thought that SS barrels are for high power matches only are OVER! You will find a good number of SS barrels being used by our Military SF troops (Recce/SPR/CQB). Most of the 10-8 guys are running Noveske SS barrels as well (and they can have anything they want).

I personally doubt that I will EVER buy another chrome lined barrel.



C4

www.GRTactical.com



Yeah, but they have the high budgets to replace their barrels much more often than most of us.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 6:18:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
The old school thought that SS barrels are for high power matches only are OVER! You will find a good number of SS barrels being used by our Military SF troops (Recce/SPR/CQB). Most of the 10-8 guys are running Noveske SS barrels as well (and they can have anything they want).

I personally doubt that I will EVER buy another chrome lined barrel.



C4

www.GRTactical.com



Yeah, but they have the high budgets to replace their barrels much more often than most of us.


How long do you think a quality SS barrel will last? I pull mine at about 3500, but that's only because I use them in competition and the level of accuracy necessary for THAT (1 MOA or less at 600) is gone by then. If the purpose is general blasting or minute of man to 500 yards, they will easily last to 10K rounds.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:26:51 PM EDT
chrome-lined for most uses
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:29:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
The old school thought that SS barrels are for high power matches only are OVER! You will find a good number of SS barrels being used by our Military SF troops (Recce/SPR/CQB). Most of the 10-8 guys are running Noveske SS barrels as well (and they can have anything they want).

I personally doubt that I will EVER buy another chrome lined barrel.



C4

www.GRTactical.com


Looks like he uses Pac-Nor rifled blanks. What does Noveske offer that one can't get from Pac-Nor, Krieger, Lilja, Hart, or other well-established custom barrel maker?




Polygonol rifling, high price and that lawn mower muffler he screws on the end.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:00:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:02:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:04:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:32:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1000yds:
I'd like to hear some thoughts on what you guys prefer in barrels. Stainless Steel or Chrome Lined and WHY?



Stainless for a tack driver and chrome lined for a carbine. That's what my two ARs are.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 11:05:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

No need as quality made SS barrel will last a VERY long time.

C4




I've got a fellow instructor who used a SS barrel for years. I pulled the weapon out of service and replaced the barrel not because of an accuracy issues, but because the barrel extension showed wear.

Granted, it wasn't used for MOA at distance, but the barrel lead a very long life.

SS barrels aren't anything new, its just taken some people a long time to break away from their "chrome" rants.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:07:27 AM EDT
I used to worry about hurting the accuracy of my stainless barrels by overheating them a little bit, but I've not seen any evidence of this at all. Sure, the accuracy opens up a bit when they get very hot, but it always seems to come back where it started when they cool down.

I've got a couple of very very good chrome lined barrels, especially if you find the factory load they prefer (Q3131A 14.5" 1/9 HBAR, BH 75gr 20" 1/7 Gov Prof), and a couple that aren't spectacular with anything.

I'm like Grant, probably only SS barrels for me now, except I do have one more "blaster" upper in mind I'll use a chrome lined barrel on, and I've already got the LMT 1/7 barrel.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:47:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 5:55:45 AM EDT by Geohans]
Firing while the barrel is extremely hot will accelerate throat wear. This will not be apparent immediately after cooldown, but will cumulatively shorten practical barrel life. Different types of steel have different susceptibilities to this type of wear. Basically, tho, any barrel's life is shortened a little bit by each mad minute it experiences-- sort of like cigarettes do to your own body. Difference is, if you quit smoking early enough in life, your lungs will heal themselves; steel as far as I know does not posess this trait.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:53:46 AM EDT
Methinks Steyr is using chrome-lined in their "sniper"-configured bolt rifles. Apparently, they have the process down on making the chrome lining uniform enough for accuracy work, so they have the best of both worlds.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:28:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:13:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 7:16:14 AM EDT by hispeedal2]
I have and will continue to watch this thread very closely. I have noticed a rise in the use of SS on this board for general carbine use. I have not seen much talk about longevity so...............................

I WANT TO SEE A TORTURE TEST!!

I want to see a torture test where someone puts 20,000+ through a SS barrel and it has enough life in it to stay on a man sized target at 300, 400, and even the 500-600M range. I have yet to see a good reliable source that has first hand knowledge of a SS barrel doing this. Every post seems to be about someone who knows someone who.............

The few people that have SS barrels on this board haven't persuaded me to change yet. "I have 5000 though mine and it works fine" is not very convincing.

Someone needs to heat one up and run a good 20,000 through with an accuracy test in the end.

SS resists rust well enough, it is easy to clean, but I am just not so sure about its longevity.

TORTURE IT TO THE DESTRUCTION POINT!


ETA: For general carbine use, it just needs to hit a man sized target out to 400M and be on most of the time out to 600M. I know it will not stay sub MOA after 20,000 rds, but I am talking general carbine use not paper puncher.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:24:00 AM EDT
I use to think that only chrome lined barrels were up to the task of hard use. Over the last couple years I have numerous stainless barrels that were "ridden hard and put away wet".


Here is one example:

Zak Smith used his Rock River Arms Elite Car A4 with factory STAINLESS barrel in a Sept Tactical Response Tactical Carbine course. If I remember correctly he shot 1,800 rounds through the gun in 2 days.

I don't remember Zak having any issues relating to reliabilty to the gun during the class, and the guns were run pretty hard. Zak had not cleaned the gun for approximatley 500 rounds prior to attending the class and didn't clean the gun at all during the 2 days of training.

Pics and a review can be seen here:

www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=157711

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:25:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tarfu64:
Methinks Steyr is using chrome-lined in their "sniper"-configured bolt rifles. Apparently, they have the process down on making the chrome lining uniform enough for accuracy work, so they have the best of both worlds.



The quality of chrome lining has gotten much better in the last 20 years, but it is still no better than the shop doing it -- the top name companies in the US will only use one of about three shops for chrome lining and the results are as close to perfect as you can hope for... Building a MOA rifle with a chromed bore is -- I dare say -- child's play today.

But, keep in mind that chrome plating has been benched by far superior platings, of course it is still the most common plating for several reasons:

*the *demand* for chrome as fueled by people that think it is what they want from gunshop lore and errornet BS.

*the military specification for chrome

*mostly the fact that it is the cheapest solution -- I do very small runs of barrels (50 at a time) and it cost me $5.00 a piece to get them chromed, or $8.75 for Nye-Carb. To me that is nothing, but to a top tier manufacturer that is sending out 10K barrels, that sounds too much like "twice as expensive" -- plus, it is not a familiar term with the buying public.

I build very small numbers of weapons and they are for professional use, I just tell the people that I deal with the gun is five bucks more because the plating is much better than chrome; but they know that they are getting absolutely the best (not newest, or in demand) product that they can get, so I argue that what Steyr has is a good chrome lined barrel; but not the best of both worlds.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:25:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:36:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 7:37:10 AM EDT by Gunzilla]

Originally Posted By hispeedal2:
I have and will continue to watch this thread very closely. I have noticed a rise in the use of SS on this board for general carbine use. I have not seen much talk about longevity so...............................

I WANT TO SEE A TORTURE TEST!!

I want to see a torture test where someone puts 20,000+ through a SS barrel and it has enough life in it to stay on a man sized target at 300, 400, and even the 500-600M range. I have yet to see a good reliable source that has first hand knowledge of a SS barrel doing this. Every post seems to be about someone who knows someone who.............

The few people that have SS barrels on this board haven't persuaded me to change yet. "I have 5000 though mine and it works fine" is not very convincing.

Someone needs to heat one up and run a good 20,000 through with an accuracy test in the end.

SS resists rust well enough, it is easy to clean, but I am just not so sure about its longevity.

TORTURE IT TO THE DESTRUCTION POINT!


ETA: For general carbine use, it just needs to hit a man sized target out to 400M and be on most of the time out to 600M. I know it will not stay sub MOA after 20,000 rds, but I am talking general carbine use not paper puncher.



I don' t think anyone is trying to talk you into buying SS... but I must say that a lot of people seem to base their buying decisions on what "the voices on arfcom told me to do" -- but if you don't want SS then don't get it. As said earlier, I will probably never buy a *chrome lined* barrel again, that is not to say that I do not have Chromo/CMV barrels, just not hard chrome lined.

Oh, the MTBF for the M4 barrel is 9600 rounds, so you may want to adjust your *torture test* there a little... If you really want to see how SS holds up, then check out the SPR's service history, seems to be working well huh?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:41:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 8:12:52 AM EDT by hispeedal2]

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Be realistic, if you dont want SS, dont buy it. The life of a chrome lined M4 barrel is just around10k rounds, which, like an SS barrel will still be minute of man at 300-400yds.


10,000 rds is a low ball number. I have that plus 5,000 through a HBAR chrome lined M4 barrel I got from JT and she is still going strong out to 400M. I have see barrels in the military that have way more rounds than that through them and theay have no problem staying on 300-400M range. I am sure some marines around here can vouch for some out to 500M with their qualification.


Originally Posted By bigbore:
If you are honest with yourself and your needs, buy what you need. Otherwise just buy what you want and have fun with your rifle.



I may want a SS but I want someone else to torture test it first. You said that SS will stay minute of man at 300-400 @ 10,000 rds well, I want to see it done.

I am not bashing stainless. I have never ran a stainless barrel that long and I am interested to see that it will shoot well after a large amount of heat and rounds have been put through it.

ETA: I believe the M4 torture test is done on cyclic and of course that will wear a barrel much faster than standard shooting and cleaning. I am not asking some one to run 20,000 in one day, but a good amount in shorter time period. Something that will prove SS's worth on a general carbine.

ETA:USMC03- that is a good link. It is also a good start. It helps prove the reliability of a SS barrel through a few thousand with little maintnence. The SS barrels I have used are similar to chrome lined in cleaning and maintnence. They can stay dirty in the elements for a while without worrying about corrosion and they clean out easily afterwards.

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:54:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 9:05:36 AM EDT by Sinister]
For the majority of the users on this board who will never shoot past 100 to 200 yards it doesn't matter what the barrel material is -- most won't ever notice whether the rifle or carbine groups 2 to 4 minutes of angle if all they're shooting is non life-threatening targets.

Most any barrel will go to 10,000 rounds and retain E-type accuracy to 100 yards (look at AKs -- many have been around for 20-30 years on the same barrel, and all the knuckleheads who shoot them up in the air as wedding and new year's noisemakers can still kill you at 100 yards -- but are iffy at anything farther).

416R stainless is generally SOFTER than 4150 chro-moly. The "R" in 416R means re-sulphurized (sulphur is added to the alloy) to soften the steel bar to permit tools to cut it easier (to machine the profile, cut the chamber, bore the hole, and let a rifling button or cutter pass through the bore). Tooling to a production outfit means money, and the more barrels he can make per tool set means lower cost per barrel. That sulphur corrodes out of the throat and any other soft spot in the bore, leading to throat erosion and surface cracking under normal firing. Shooters without access to a borescope may notice when cleaning that they need to push the cleaning brushes and patches just a little harder to get past some resistance at the throat, or their patches show copper fouling (from jacket fouling scratching off in the rough throat area).

Military shooters using stainless are looking for no-kidding day-in, day-out accuracy from 300 to 500/600 yards. A prairie-dogger or woodchucker will darn sure notice when he can't bust his targets. A military shooting team shooter will notice when his team loses by X-count.

Cheaper is better for most hobbyists.

Stainless will go longer and hold accuracy better, then fall off drastically. A military shooter may notice this at 600 yards when he has un-called 7s, 8s, and 9s at 600 yards, declining X-counts, or double groups in his 300 yard rapid fire scores (a cluster of holes in the bullseye and a cluster of holes somewhere else, totally unexpected and off-call). This can happen in as few as 1200 rounds, but definitely after 3,500. The USAMU uses stainless barrels for across-the-course and long range M16s and DMRs.

Chro-moly will hold well, but accuracy drops slowly but consistently over time and may not be noticed if you don't shoot regularly or keep a detailed data book. Hammer-forging may give extended life at the expense of groups opening up as the barrel heats (depending on how well your barrel maker stress-relieved the barrel). The USAMU uses both stainless and chro-moly for "Rattle-Battle" matches (rapid fire against E-types at 600, 500, and 300 yards). We usually change the barrels before 5,000 rounds.

Chrome-lined gives peace of mind in tropical climes or if you operate 24/7 in weather. They are generally less accurate, but the harder bore cleans faster. Military competition rules that call for issue-only barrels means the Army and Guard rifle teams go direct to FN and Colt and pay extra for a chrome-lined GI barrel that has been tested and proven to group at minute-of-angle using issue ammo. Good enough for government work here doesn't mean good enough to beat the other services or allies.

Just because a barrel has been chrome-lined does not mean it's been done properly. Aircraft and parachute grade steel hardware must be treated to prevent hydrogen embrittlement (which could cause the part to crack under stress, or peel off under load, i.e. during firing).

ALL M16/M4 barrels wear from the throat and at the muzzle side of the gas port. Polygonal rifled barrels are still going to wear at the throat and gas port (the barrel's metallurgy is the same, and you haven't changed the laws of thermodynamics and chemistry).

I find it ridiculous that folks think they need a tack-driver barrel in a 10.5 or 11.5-inch barrel, then wonder why they can't hit precision targets past 300 yards. It's a short-barreled rifle for Pete's sake.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:48:29 AM EDT
My factory BM chrome lined will shoot off the sandbags with a good scope and RR NM trigger into 1 1/4" on a good day for 10 shot groups. This is with my favorite wallmart Winchester "45gr Varmint" load. With xm193 and the like it goes 2"+-. For serious competition or dedicated use against small critters at a distance this won't cut it (I have just grabbed up a BUSHMASTER VARMINT SPECIAL to play with) But I can't see myself needing anything else for most of my hand held shooting needs.
The chrome lined cleans and maintains so easy it is a great choice for all but special needs.
It is a personal choice of course, I have no fight with others who go the other way (stainless)
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 10:44:01 AM EDT
One thing I will say is that Chrome Lined barrels can be very accurate. FN and Styer both use Chrome Lined barrels for their tactical bolt gun models. Honestly I think the only reason there is still a debate is because most barrel manufacturers aren't set up for proper chrome lining.

Honestly Stainless will just wear faster, develop throat errosion faster, and will most not be any more accurate than the same contour chrome lined barrel.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:16:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By 1000yds:
I'd like to hear some thoughts on what you guys prefer in barrels. Stainless Steel or Chrome Lined and WHY?



Stainless Steel = Paper punch...

Chrome Lined = Work, combat or SHTF...



+1

Tack
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 11:54:38 AM EDT
One thing that I havent heard anybody mention yet are case extraction issues. Chrome has a natural lubricity to it, which is one of the main reason they switched over to chrome lined chambers in vietnam, better case exraction. You might never see the difference when it comes to brass cased ammo, but if you shoot alot of wolf or old surplus it might be a concern. IMO both have an intended purpose, on a long range percision tactical rifle, SS no question. In a SHTF or battlefield scenerio, I would feel a bit better with chrome.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 12:36:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 1:36:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 8:50:30 AM EDT by theshootersden]

Originally Posted By bigbore:
Gotta wonder how on earth those 6 million M1 Garands functioned without chrome lining, while having only corrosive ammo to shoot! And to think how many of those 50+ year old, dark bored barrels still shoot great today.



Yeah, to bad all those killed in action in Vietnam because of FTE issues with the non-chrome lined M-16's didn't have those M1's...
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:02:13 PM EDT
It's to bad this topic had potential.

The days of stainless barrels being a range queen feature are long gone. I'm not trying to sell anyone on stainless, so buy what you want. Just don't make the ingorant assumptions that stainless makes a rifle unreliable.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:48:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:27:41 PM EDT
I've got a fellow instructor who used a SS barrel for years. I pulled the weapon out of service and replaced the barrel not because of an accuracy issues, but because the barrel extension showed wear.

I had a very similar experience. An Oly SS barrel on a carbine. The barrel bore was fine, the extension was worn.

I have all three in my safe, AR's with chromemoly, chrome-lined, and stainless.

I live in a rather humid area, and prefer SS for the AR's I keep for "things go bump in the night" or possible SHTF.

Recently built an upper for a friend who lives on a boat. I suggested, and he purchased an Oly M4 barrel (which comes in SS) and used Norrell's Moly Resin on the outside of the barrel to protect the front sight base, handguard cap, flash hider, and delta ring assembly. Also coated the upper receiver itself, the forward assist, and dust cover.

Chrome lining protects the bore and chamber, but does nothing to protect the outside.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:34:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By Forward_Assist:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
The old school thought that SS barrels are for high power matches only are OVER! You will find a good number of SS barrels being used by our Military SF troops (Recce/SPR/CQB). Most of the 10-8 guys are running Noveske SS barrels as well (and they can have anything they want).

I personally doubt that I will EVER buy another chrome lined barrel.



C4

www.GRTactical.com


Looks like he uses Pac-Nor rifled blanks. What does Noveske offer that one can't get from Pac-Nor, Krieger, Lilja, Hart, or other well-established custom barrel maker?




Polygonol rifling, high price and that lawn mower muffler he screws on the end.



They can be had with Poly rifling (or without), Noveske also have a Proprietary chamber, uses CMT M4 barrel extension and some other small tweaks to his barrels. Last time I checked, his barrels were cheaper than some other high end barrels on the market.


C4


Interesting. I know that I can order Pac-Nor direct with poly or conventional rifling, *maybe* with the CMT extension, but probably not with Noveske's proprietary chamber.

Can you tell me more about the Noveske chamber design? Pros and cons compared to other accuracy + reliability minded chambers (Wylde, CLE)?

I rebarreled my NM AR a few months ago. Almost went with Pac-Nor, but in the end got a SS, air gauged, Wylde chambered, 1/7 Wilson from WOA. Honestly, that's my second Wilson and I am impressed at both its accuracy and its utter lack of fouling (which speaks to its interior surface smoothness and uniformity).
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:00:36 PM EDT
Thanks Guys!!! I was leaning towards the SS but thought I'd get some experienced opinions before I made up my mind for sure. I'm going with SS and if I get to shoot it enough that I actually see any of the issues you guys described developing, I'll change it out. Thanks again!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:29:35 PM EDT
"I have all three in my safe, AR's with chromemoly, chrome-lined, and stainless."

Now there's the AR15.com answer!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:45:56 PM EDT
"Gotta wonder how on earth those 6 million M1 Garands functioned without chrome lining, while having only corrosive ammo to shoot! And to think how many of those 50+ year old, dark bored barrels still shoot great today. "

--Excellent Point Steve
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:18:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sharkbait:
"Gotta wonder how on earth those 6 million M1 Garands functioned without chrome lining, while having only corrosive ammo to shoot! And to think how many of those 50+ year old, dark bored barrels still shoot great today. "

--Excellent Point Steve



How many have shot tens of thousands of rounds through them? How many have had over 200 rounds in as fast as the shooter could pull the trigger while on burst? I've done that a few times with an M16 that had probably started service before Desert Storm and was well used by the time I was issued it.
Garands were used before the idea of gaining fire superiority (in other words shooting so much more at them than they are at you so they keep their heads down) was thought up.
If you are going to post smart assed comments, at least let them be relavent.

How different are SAW barrels than and M16 barrel? I know I've fired 20,000 plus rounds through the same SAW barrel over a year and a half, and it wasn't a new barrel at all. Once it got so hot that the top heat shield started to melt, and the sling did when it layed across the barrel. It still shot fine. Would the stainless do that?

Not saying that anyone will ever fire that much, or that it's needed. But unless you need the most accuracy possible, many find the potential for that type of longevity to be comforting.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:36:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigbore:

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
One thing that I havent heard anybody mention yet are case extraction issues. Chrome has a natural lubricity to it, which is one of the main reason they switched over to chrome lined chambers in vietnam, better case exraction. You might never see the difference when it comes to brass cased ammo, but if you shoot alot of wolf or old surplus it might be a concern. IMO both have an intended purpose, on a long range percision tactical rifle, SS no question. In a SHTF or battlefield scenerio, I would feel a bit better with chrome.



Gotta wonder how on earth those 6 million M1 Garands functioned without chrome lining, while having only corrosive ammo to shoot! And to think how many of those 50+ year old, dark bored barrels still shoot great today.

Barrels are a funny thing when you think about how silly it is to worry about them as folks do here.

With ANY routine maintenance and your firearm will last much longer than the owner.
Define what you need, and buy what you want.



I understand your point, and truth be told 99.9% of members here will never tell the difference. But I think that a garand might function even better with a chrome lined bore. There would also be alot more of them still wearing original barrels.

Just cause something has worked well for the past 100 years doesnt mean we cant make it work exceptionally for the next 100.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:18:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:25:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 3:26:28 AM EDT by Forward_Assist]

Originally Posted By Unicorn:

Originally Posted By sharkbait:
"Gotta wonder how on earth those 6 million M1 Garands functioned without chrome lining, while having only corrosive ammo to shoot! And to think how many of those 50+ year old, dark bored barrels still shoot great today. "

--Excellent Point Steve



How many have shot tens of thousands of rounds through them? How many have had over 200 rounds in as fast as the shooter could pull the trigger while on burst? I've done that a few times with an M16 that had probably started service before Desert Storm and was well used by the time I was issued it.
Garands were used before the idea of gaining fire superiority (in other words shooting so much more at them than they are at you so they keep their heads down) was thought up.If you are going to post smart assed comments, at least let them be relavent.

How different are SAW barrels than and M16 barrel? I know I've fired 20,000 plus rounds through the same SAW barrel over a year and a half, and it wasn't a new barrel at all. Once it got so hot that the top heat shield started to melt, and the sling did when it layed across the barrel. It still shot fine. Would the stainless do that?

Not saying that anyone will ever fire that much, or that it's needed. But unless you need the most accuracy possible, many find the potential for that type of longevity to be comforting.



Shhhhh! Don't let the Germans with their MG 44's hear that. You want to talk fire rate? I could be wrong but I don't think the MG 42 or 43's were chrome lined either.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 4:13:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 11:06:51 AM EDT by Sinister]
Automatic weapons are a completely different animal. Shooting more than 400-600 rounds at maximum or sustained rate of fire without a barrel change is destroying the barrel at molecular level (martensite content in steel) -- if you're not in a to-the-death gunfight take care of your weapon. That's why most dedicated foot soldier machineguns and automatic weapons (including the SAW) have a barrel change feature. Even mini-guns have air going over the barrels as they spin.

Automatic weapons often have stellite bore plating to help minimize wear. Shooting a machinegun to the point the barrel glows means you are purposely trying to burn out the throat (watch M60s, SAWs, and M240s firing all-tracer once they get that hot -- the barrels can sag, and the bullets are no longer grabbing rifling on their way down the barrel, and you can watch them going downrange in big wobbling patterns).
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