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Posted: 12/31/2005 7:13:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 7:13:27 AM EDT by Pstores]
OK, it looks like I can get a Les baer Ultimate .223 Flattop Model for about $1700 out the door with case and all. Or I been thinking about maybe building a couple of RRA's The Les Baer has about 20 rounds through it is all. So, More or less new gun. Is the Les Baer really worth it. Or should I build. Can I get the accuracy out of a quality built upper and barrel combo as the Les Baer. Thanks again for your help. Pulling out hair and running real thin on it. LOL LOL
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 7:14:51 AM EDT
my opinion?


personal preference, i would rather build 2-3 rifles with that money
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 7:16:52 AM EDT
Ok, that's one for RRA.... TY
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 7:24:26 AM EDT
I'd expect the RRA votes to run 20-1 over a Les Baer

why?

The Les Baer ARs are regular ARs customized with a few high quality, precision parts. But that is exactly what AR owners want to do themselves, and do so with an eye to the components most important to them.

You can have a far better AR15 than the Les Baer for a lot less money....IMHO of course.

I see the LB option as one for the buyer who has little or no interest in tinkering and wants to buy a tack-driver right out of the box.

Kinda like a guy who buys a '70 Chevelle SS, but doesn't want to have to work on it. Sorta
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 7:32:21 AM EDT
If all things were equal, I would get a 16" carbine, and a 20" rifle, and turn them into what I wanted before I dropped $1700 for the LB.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 7:37:23 AM EDT
LES BAER AR's overpriced I think . I have looked at one too. But damn the fit and finish on it was the finest I have ever seen
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 7:39:31 AM EDT
OK I guess that answers that question.... Thanks again....
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 9:48:35 AM EDT
Not that it has much bearing on your decision...
but i believe the guys that run RRA were first with Les Bear.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 9:53:23 AM EDT
Bottom line is that you should buy what you like. I met with Les Baer at his shop and purchased a Super Tac .45. I came away very impressed with his busisness ethic as well as his products. I own a RRA AR not a Les Baer. If you can afford the $1700 price and hve the itch to buy it , your decision is already made.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 9:54:56 AM EDT
What's with all the "X vs Y" threads lately?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:44:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GetDown_M4A3:
What's with all the "X vs Y" threads lately?

A lot of folks are looking to get into ARs for the first time and they don't know how to objectively determine their needs so they can find the brand and type of AR that will best suit their needs.

I can understand that choosing your first AR can be a very daunting task. There are more brands and accessories (for ARs) available now than ever before. Most people are looking for the quick and easy answer. Some look to be told what to buy (e.g. "What's the best AR?") which brings subjectiveity into the equation which further muddies the waters.

I worked in retail for 12 yrs (selling musical instruments) so I'm fortunate to have developed the skills and mindset to objectively pick gear. Even then, I can own something for a year before I find it's not for me but sometimes that cannot be avoided.

I took a little over a year to decide to switch from an HK-94 to a 9mm AR but I have not regretted making the switch for a second. Here's the thread I went through to finally arrive at that decision. It's in the Archives so non-paying members may not be able to access it.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:47:12 AM EDT
if you really wanted something special, take that $1,700 and put together a real quality custom rifle yourself. for that kinda money, you can get a rifle that's much better than an LB, plus you'll have built it yourself.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:47:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By INF1CAV2:
Not that it has much bearing on your decision...
but i believe the guys that run RRA were first with Les Bear.




???
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 11:21:42 AM EDT
I would build the 2 to 3 RRA guns over buying the Les Baer.

just my 2 cents
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 11:34:51 AM EDT
Just looked up the rifle on their website. Looks like a nice gun. I would give Denny at Global Tactical a call or some of the other builders on this board, they all do excellent work. Let them know what you are looking for and I am sure that they will help you out with what they can offer. That way if you go with the Les Baer you will have the piece of mind that you have exactly what you want. In the begining I made the mistake of buying what I thought was my perfect rig. After alot of research and going through many uppers, buttstocks, optics, and other components I almost have what I want.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 11:40:00 AM EDT
Frank White at Compass Lake Engineering or John Holliger at White Oak Precision will build rifles or uppers that will match or exceed the quality and accuracy of anything Les Baer makes for significantly less $.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 12:00:57 PM EDT
No offense to Les Baer or anyone who owns one of his rifles, but I wouldn't bother with one.

They may be great quality, but you can get better quality for cheaper from many of the board vendors. Getting accuarcy out of an AR isn't rocket science, and I'd be willing to bet 95% of the board vendors could build a rifle to out perform the LB in most, if not all aspects for a significant amount less.

I also don't like the fact they use YHM rail systems. For a rifle that's supposed to be top notch, you'd atleast expect to get a rail system that isn't the most generic available.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 12:03:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By INF1CAV2:
Not that it has much bearing on your decision...
but i believe the guys that run RRA were first with Les Bear.




???

Stick I think he was trying to say they worked for Les Baer first?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 12:13:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 12:14:36 PM EDT by olds442tyguy]
I thought it was Armalite?

Armalite is from the same state, so I always thought it was true.

Anyone else notice Armalite's site is down?

ETA: Les Baer is located in Illinois as well. Maybe it is true.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 12:25:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By INF1CAV2:
Not that it has much bearing on your decision...
but i believe the guys that run RRA were first with Les Bear.




???




Stick,


As I recall from talking to a couple people at the 2002 SHOT Show, a group of employees that worked at Les Baer Custom got fed up with Les and quit, and started Rock River Arms.

Pstores,


I would go with RRA over the Les Baer, and I have owned Baer guns. The reason I recommend RRA is the price and the features. Les make an awesome gun but they are very pricy and limiting on features. You can get a gun from RRA that would shoot every bit as good as a Baer Custom for almost half the price.


Link Posted: 12/31/2005 1:26:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
my opinion?


personal preference, i would rather build 2-3 rifles with that money



+1

I'm sure the Les Baer is trick in all, but is it really that much better than a RRA ??? I have not owned a Les Baer so I can not say...

Secondly, Are you going to be able to shoot a Les Baer any better ???

Its your money get what you want, either way you go, you win !!!!
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:45:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 2:46:25 PM EDT by Pstores]
Ya, I am back to the begining... I might as well buy a new gun, 2 uppers and give Randall some barrel business.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:56:55 PM EDT
I bet tje seach function would have given you all the opinions of this board on LB
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 10:56:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 11:17:55 PM EDT by INF1CAV2]
Pstores:
There are a lot of different brand ARs you can get in the price range of $1700, to include other custom shops. You may be limiting your options by just looking at Les Bear and RRA. Remember the great thing about ARs is you can always upgrade!

I recently purchased my first AR. I went with a Recce/Recon from MSTN. Just waiting to get home and put some rounds through it.



USM3:
That is what i was refering to, i've read it somewhere but can't recall where.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:24:24 AM EDT
This is what I am thinking...
RRA Upper and lower.
Lower
JP Single Stage Trigger
JP Speed hammer

Upper
24" .204 Krieger 1 to 12 twist Stainless Super Match Barrel
CMT Chromed fully shrouded M16 stlye Chrome Bolt carrier
Rock River charging handle
JP Gas Adjustable Gas Block
DPMS Free Float Hand guard.

Build Number 2 not sure of. Wait to see How the first shoots. Third might be an AR10
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:27:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:52:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pstores:
This is what I am thinking...

Upper
24" .204 Krieger 1 to 12 twist Stainless Super Match Barrel



what bullets are ya going to be shooting out of it. im guessing some lightweight ones with that twist.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:57:18 AM EDT
I have a les baer M4. It is nice but over priced. The best thing about them is the upper and lower match up very well.

The trigger that came in it is a complicated two stage that is about 2-pounds. I like light triggers and have had issues with it.

It is accurate.

The last two weapons I have put together I have bought a matched upper and lower from them to assemble. This adds about $200 above the price of the other manufactures. Then do with it what you want. hug.gif
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:21:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By INF1CAV2:
Not that it has much bearing on your decision...
but i believe the guys that run RRA were first with Les Bear.




???



excerpt from Precision Shooter Magazine article (Interview with Mark Larsen President/co-Founder of RRA:


In 1981, I went to work for Springfield Armory (Geneseo, Illinois), with Chuck following eight months later. Eventually, I became one of their managers and was in charge of their M1A and 1911 pistol manufacturing. I also managed a lot of their research and development efforts for both product lines.

In 1991, we left Springfield and went into a partnership with Les Baer, building 1911 pistols. We decided to go in a different direction and, in 1993, went to work at Eagle Arms. This was before they bought the Armalite name. While we worked at Eagle Arms, we started a small company, Tolerance Plus, to build 1911 pistols.

Since Eagle Arms was not in the 1911 business, there wasn’t any conflict and, eventually, Eagle Arms bought some parts from us. After a while, we changed the name to Rock River Arms. In 1997, Chuck and I left Eagle Arms/Armalite to devote all of our time to our own company.




I have the entire article if anyone's interested
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:18:57 AM EDT
Thanks Redfisher,
I knew i'd read about the Les Bear / RRA connection somewhere, but didn't think to look at my old precision shooter mags.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:44:34 AM EDT
I was going to shoot lighter rounds.... I was thinking about tring a 1 in 11 twist. Not sure if it would make a difference in the 40 or 32. But, I was wondering if it would stablize the heavier bullets to the piont of having some acurracy. This is going to be used for PD's for the most part. I am not sure if it would make a good wolf gun. They should be legal to hunt soon in MN and WI. I hope anyway. There are just way to many. It's really hurting the deer population. Not sure what to get for those damn things....
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:46:13 AM EDT
I was going to shoot lighter rounds.... I was thinking about tring a 1 in 11 twist. Not sure if it would make a difference in the 40 or 32. But, I was wondering if it would stablize the heavier bullets to the piont of having some acurracy. This is going to be used for PD's for the most part. I am not sure if it would make a good wolf gun. They should be legal to hunt soon in MN and WI. I hope anyway. There are just way to many. It's really hurting the deer population. Not sure what to get for those damn things....
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:48:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By usagold:
I would build the 2 to 3 RRA guns over buying the Les Baer.

just my 2 cents



+1
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:09:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By INF1CAV2:
Not that it has much bearing on your decision...
but i believe the guys that run RRA were first with Les Bear.




???



excerpt from Precision Shooter Magazine article (Interview with Mark Larsen President/co-Founder of RRA:


In 1981, I went to work for Springfield Armory (Geneseo, Illinois), with Chuck following eight months later. Eventually, I became one of their managers and was in charge of their M1A and 1911 pistol manufacturing. I also managed a lot of their research and development efforts for both product lines.

In 1991, we left Springfield and went into a partnership with Les Baer, building 1911 pistols. We decided to go in a different direction and, in 1993, went to work at Eagle Arms. This was before they bought the Armalite name. While we worked at Eagle Arms, we started a small company, Tolerance Plus, to build 1911 pistols.

Since Eagle Arms was not in the 1911 business, there wasn’t any conflict and, eventually, Eagle Arms bought some parts from us. After a while, we changed the name to Rock River Arms. In 1997, Chuck and I left Eagle Arms/Armalite to devote all of our time to our own company.




I have the entire article if anyone's interested


Wow. I didn't know they had that much history behind them.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 3:55:31 PM EDT
I don't see it mentioned before, but what is the intended use for your build?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:59:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 5:01:17 PM EDT by Pstores]
I was going to use it for Paper and PD's... Maybe once in awhile a fox or two...
Quote to my double post earlier lol lol
I was going to shoot lighter rounds.... I was thinking about tring a 1 in 11 twist. Not sure if it would make a difference in the 40 or 32. But, I was wondering if it would stablize the heavier bullets to the piont of having some acurracy. This is going to be used for PD's for the most part. I am not sure if it would make a good wolf gun. They should be legal to hunt soon in MN and WI. I hope anyway. There are just way to many. It's really hurting the deer population. Not sure what to get for those damn things....
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:55:47 PM EDT
Buy a really nice mid-length and totally outfit it for that kind of money.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:50:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pstores:
I was going to use it for Paper and PD's... Maybe once in awhile a fox or two...



Give the RRA varminter a try. The price is right and they shoot!
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 4:46:56 AM EDT
I own a les bear (3 months new as fact) built it peice by peice over the last year. A fellow officer owns the RRA. Both he and I like my baer better hands down. Is it pricy, Yes. Is it worth it, Yes. its a custom hand fitted gun, I don't know one that isn't outrages.
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