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Posted: 12/30/2005 9:32:05 PM EDT
Well went to the range today and tried to bumpfire from the shoulder and couldnt get it. I know about the wood bumpfiring device that one guy made but im wanting to make something less noticeable. Im not really trying to make something that will bumpfire for me i just want something that will help me bumpfire. We know that the recoil resets the trigger so could I put something behind or in front of the trigger that way it leaves me a little room for error. There has to be alot of creative/smart people on this forum so please help me out!

I think the first thing im gonna do is get some lighter weight trigger springs. Does anyone know how many lbs the stock bushmaster M4 trigger is?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 9:34:09 PM EDT
Don't alter your defensive rifle just cause you want to bump for fun. Having a reliable rifle is more important.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 10:04:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 10:13:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kisara:
tinyurl.com/9aq2k




Give me the money for it....


Which spring is better...

Yellow Tavern
www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=16652&title=AR-15%2fM16+REDUCED+POWER+ACTION+KIT#specs

or

J P Enterprises
www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=7582&title=AR-15+REDUCED+POWER+SPRING+KIT

Anyone know how many lb trigger pull these springs give ya?
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 10:17:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 10:18:30 PM EDT by Kisara]
JP yellows are 3lbs. I'll take a pic of mine for you tommorrow.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 10:19:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 10:20:06 PM EDT by dmcblaster]
.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:04:09 AM EDT
Not for nothing but a lighter trigger will do nothing to help you bumpfire from the shoulder. In fact, IMO, a light trigger will do nothing but cause the sear to not set and the hammer to ride the carrier back.
In my experience, the key to bumping from the shoulder is short trigger travel and smoothness. The slightest amount of "grittyness" will negatively affect the weapon's ability to "bump".
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:10:48 AM EDT
H2 buffer or heavier. My midlength would never bump from the shoulder. With the H2 buffer it runs very well.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:17:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 8:25:02 AM EDT by dmcblaster]
Why would the hammer ride the carrier just because of a lighter trigger spring... When the carrier is moving back the sear is gonna catch it no matter what spring you have. The hammer should not fall untill I pull the trigger. If I pull the trigger and the carrier isnt all the way forward shouldnt the disconnector catch the hammer? Please explain why using lighter trigger springs will make the hammer ride the carrier.

Maybe im looking at it all wrong but when I pull the trigger I have to pull it hard and the trigger wont reset. So it seems like theres 2 things i should do... either make the gun recoil more or put a lighter trigger in so i dont have to pull as hard and it should reset easier.. I dunno

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:19:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Not for nothing but a lighter trigger will do nothing to help you bumpfire from the shoulder. In fact, IMO, a light trigger will do nothing but cause the sear to not set and the hammer to ride the carrier back.
In my experience, the key to bumping from the shoulder is short trigger travel and smoothness. The slightest amount of "grittyness" will negatively affect the weapon's ability to "bump".




Do what Rickinvegas says, he is the bumping god!!!


How bout a link to that video with the mag change
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:23:35 AM EDT
Ya i know...seen his vids!! How can I make my trigger smoother?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:57:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dmcblaster:
Why would the hammer ride the carrier just because of a lighter trigger spring...



All I know is when I have tried to lighten up my springs, that is what happens. I suspect it would be the same affect as "limp wristing" an auto handgun. It's not an issue of the hammer falling when the trigger is pulled, it's having the hammer reset while the trigger is not pulled. It's all a matter of syncronization.

I'm not explaining it very well, Sorry. I'm doing "honey do's" right now and bouncing all over the house. I will give more thought to my explaination and post later.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 9:08:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
How bout a link to that video with the mag change



I put several of the vid clips together into one file................

"We don't need no stinkin' tax stamp!!"
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:13:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
How bout a link to that video with the mag change hr


I put several of the vid clips together into one file................

"We don't need no stinkin' tax stamp!!"




You're Awesome!!!!
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:21:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
How bout a link to that video with the mag change hr


I put several of the vid clips together into one file................

"We don't need no stinkin' tax stamp!!"



Dude, those weeds didn't have a chance!
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 2:54:22 PM EDT
How do I post a video? I have a good bump fireing video, but I only know how to do still photos on tinypic.com.

Rick, you are awsome!
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:30:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Real_estate_salesman:
How do I post a video? I have a good bump fireing video, but I only know how to do still photos on tinypic.com.



If it's not too large, just email it to me at rickinvegas@gmail.com and I will host it on my server.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:32:50 AM EDT
Hey Happy New Year!!

Lets get back on track here.... Like I said before... the recoil resets the trigger then the trigger bumps into your finger right after it resets...but if your finger/hand moves then it stops bumpfiring. Theres got to be something to put between your finger and the trigger to allow room for error.

Rick- how can you tell if the hammer is riding the carrier?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:03:10 AM EDT
I'm new to this. What's a bump fire? The video was awesome, but the weapons sure look like full auto to me....
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:50:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dmcblaster:
Rick- how can you tell if the hammer is riding the carrier?



If after firing, a live round is chambered and the hammer is aready tripped, then the hammer did not catch and it rode back with the carrier.

FYI, I just got back from a shoot where a friend brought out his brand new DPMS 16" with a 2 stage RRA trigger installed. The gun bumped great from the hip but I couldn't shoulder bump it for all the tea in china! Like I have said many times before....in my experience, you can't shoulder bump 2 stage AR's. Don't kill yourselves trying. YMMV I guess.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 4:51:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By old4x4:
the weapons sure look like full auto to me....



That's the whole point
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 5:45:36 PM EDT
Im not wanting to put a 2 stage trigger in. Im gonna try lighter springs. Ive read a couple post about people putting in lighter springs and ended up bumping and didnt know it. So if someone can bump with lighter springs without tring then I would think it would help. After I install the j p enterprises yellow springs i will test my ar out by pulling the trigger and holding the trigger down for a second to make sure it only fires once. After testing a few times then ill see if i can bump with it. If not ill have to take the springs back out and figure something else out.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:03:58 PM EDT
FWIW, I tried my hand at bumping from the shoulder recently with my RRA Tactical CAR A4. It worked the first time I tried it, and left this big grin on my face. (Fortunately, I was standing close to a hillside in anticipation of muzzle climb, which happened.) I have the RRA NM 2 stage trigger and a vertical foregrip (among other things) on it, and it was easy to do.

I did, however run into what rickinvegas was talking about. Apparently the hammer was riding the bolt carrier back from the trigger getting pulled by the bumping while the bolt was closing again. Thus, I'd pull the trigger with no hammer dropping, but there would be a round in the chamber. I came to the conclusion that this particular rifle is not a good choice for bumpfiring. (Not that I can really hit much of anything, but it's fun....kinda like firing with two pistols like in the movies...)
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 6:16:16 PM EDT
can someone explain how you bump fire? i'd like to give it a try.... no two-stage trigger here though
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 7:52:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
I put several of the vid clips together into one file................

"We don't need no stinkin' tax stamp!!"





WOW!

Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:06:40 PM EDT
How to bumpfire from the hip...if anyone can explain it better please do.. place the gun down by your hip. Place your left hand on the handguard.. you will be supporting the whole gun with your left. Now take your right and and place your finger on the trigger. You want to get your trigger finger stiff and do not hold onto the grip. Now pull the gun forward with your left hand. You will be pulling the gun into your stiff trigger finger. As you pull it forward your finger will hit the trigger then the gun will recoil back but since your keeping forward pressure on the gun you will be pulling the gun back into your finger and it will fire again. When you pull forward you will have to find the sweet spot.. if you pull to hard the gun will only fire once. If you dont pull hard enough the gun will not fire. Just keep at it and u will get it. I can bump from the hip but still learning to do it from the shoulder.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:08:42 PM EDT
Be very careful if you think of making bump firing devices. The ATF has an opinion letter that in some cases, a device (even a pisece of string) can become a machinegun if it isnt your finger pulling the trigger directly.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:12:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BaronFitz:
FWIW, I tried my hand at bumping from the shoulder recently with my RRA Tactical CAR A4. It worked the first time I tried it, and left this big grin on my face. (Fortunately, I was standing close to a hillside in anticipation of muzzle climb, which happened.) I have the RRA NM 2 stage trigger and a vertical foregrip (among other things) on it, and it was easy to do.

I did, however run into what rickinvegas was talking about. Apparently the hammer was riding the bolt carrier back from the trigger getting pulled by the bumping while the bolt was closing again. Thus, I'd pull the trigger with no hammer dropping, but there would be a round in the chamber. I came to the conclusion that this particular rifle is not a good choice for bumpfiring. (Not that I can really hit much of anything, but it's fun....kinda like firing with two pistols like in the movies...)



I guess i dont see how the sear or disconnector would not catch the hammer and if the hammer would ride the bolt carrier wouldnt it be like full auto?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:15:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Be very careful if you think of making bump firing devices. The ATF has an opinion letter that in some cases, a device (even a pisece of string) can become a machinegun if it isnt your finger pulling the trigger directly.



What about crank systems? See im not wanting to make a device that will simulate full auto...im trying to think of things that will help me bump...I still want to use my finger to pull the trigger.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:27:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 8:28:35 PM EDT by rickinvegas]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Be very careful if you think of making bump firing devices. The ATF has an opinion letter that in some cases, a device (even a pisece of string) can become a machinegun if it isnt your finger pulling the trigger directly.



This has been discussed at great length in the past. The "string" method is NOT bump firing. It is creating a mechanical connection between the movement of the bolt carrier and the trigger (just like the auto sear) and actually DOES create a machine gun. It's moot when it comes to ARs though since there is no exposed bolt handle to tie the string to. As for making a "device" to help in bumpfiring......as long as your finger is the thing actually operating the trigger then all you are doing is pulling the trigger fast. Crank devices fall into this category as well as it is your FINGER that is operating the trigger and not the mechanical action of the weapon. It's important to keep all this straight.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:34:41 PM EDT

I guess i dont see how the sear or disconnector would not catch the hammer and if the hammer would ride the bolt carrier wouldnt it be like full auto?



No, because it doesn't have enough power behind the hammer to pop the primer....it is riding the carrier and has little strength when it hits the firing pin.

I do have ARs that I bump from the shoulder with RRA 2 stage triggers in. I am no where near as good as Rickinvegas, and certainly don't claim to be.......Reading alot of his threads on bumping, I do it slightly differently then him...I do pull forward on the forearm. His technique where he basically pulls the entire gun into his shoulder by putting pressure on the trigger and let's it bounce on his shoulder (my explaination is not as good as his) sounds like a much better and more controlled way to do it...I tried his way once...it worked a bit, but I need to do way more of it.

My technique (the more widely used one) works pretty good, but I do get what I call "hammer rides" and end up stopping due to this. I sent 2 standard AR single stage triggers to Bill Springfield to have him work his magic on them. I will do alot more bumbing (to try master Rickinvegas's style) when I get them back.

I have a 1.5# single stage Jard trigger and it bumps like mad, but I get at least 1 hammerride per mag....I ordered a mult weight spring kit to find what EXACT weight works best for me with that setup.

Thanks Rickinvegas for all your help in multiple threads!
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:49:09 PM EDT
I don't know if this will help anyone with the problem of the hammer riding the bolt but I'll put it out here anyway.

I had the same problem when using a standard telestock buffer. I switched to an H buffer and the problem went away. I later tried a 9mm buffer and the problem came back.

I just keep an H buffer in my "bumping" gun. BTW it has a RRA 2 stage trigger.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:50:13 PM EDT
OK...now i see how the hammer can ride the carrier... When you pull the trigger then pull back on the charging handle the disconnector catches the hammer then you release the charging handle with the trigger still pulled in. Then you let off the trigger and you hear a click which the disconnector is releasing the hammer but the sear grabs it then pull the trigger again and the hammer falls right? But I also tried pulling the charging handle back and released it slowly then before the the bolt is fully closed i pull the trigger and the hammer falls and it rides the carrier. I tried to pull the trigger again and nothing. I have never had this happen to me with the stock trigger. So i guess by putting a lighter trigger in it makes it easier to pull the trigger before the bolt is closed? I went ahead and order the lighter trigger springs so i guess ill find out. If it does ride the bolt then im only out 10 bux. I was thinking after I ordered the springs and I should of tried to polish the sear to smooth it out but o well. Ill polish it up as im changing springs.
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:57:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 9:04:09 PM EDT by WIZZO_ARAKM14]

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Like I have said many times before....in my experience, you can't shoulder bump 2 stage AR's. Don't kill yourselves trying. YMMV I guess.



I'm going to respectfully disagree.

My rifles with RRA NM triggers in them bump far better than the heavy-ass stock ones. There are a couple guys from IL that can attest to me bumping my M4gery at near cyclic rates from the shoulder.

I couldn't get the heavy stock triggers to do well at all from the hip or from the shoulder. The RRA triggers have made it much easier to accomplish it now.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:02:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2006 9:02:47 PM EDT by dmcblaster]
Whats the trigger pull on that rra and have you had your hammer ride the carrier?
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:07:17 PM EDT
Rick your my hero!!!!!!!!!!!!! any advice...
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:09:01 PM EDT
I don't know, whatever it comes out of the wrapper as (4.5lbs, IIRC).

Yep, I've had a few hammer-rides. If I bump enough, I can tell when I've hit maximum RPM and if I pull forward any harder will result in a hammer-ride or a break in the bumping cycle (by me pulling to hard and not letting the trigger reset).

WIZZO
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 9:52:04 PM EDT
You don't need devices for bumping just use some jewelers rouge and clean up your contact surfaces so they break more smoothly. Just practice more at the hip then learn to shoot off the shoulder. Get some milk jugs and practice at 25 yards, then out further. It's never going to be the real deal FA but it is fun. However I don't believe that anyone can actually shoulder the weapon and bump it because the round lacks heavy enough recoil that momentum would stop at the shoulder and stop the bump.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 8:41:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dmcblaster:
How to bumpfire from the hip...if anyone can explain it better please do.. place the gun down by your hip. Place your left hand on the handguard.. you will be supporting the whole gun with your left. Now take your right and and place your finger on the trigger. You want to get your trigger finger stiff and do not hold onto the grip. Now pull the gun forward with your left hand. You will be pulling the gun into your stiff trigger finger. As you pull it forward your finger will hit the trigger then the gun will recoil back but since your keeping forward pressure on the gun you will be pulling the gun back into your finger and it will fire again. When you pull forward you will have to find the sweet spot.. if you pull to hard the gun will only fire once. If you dont pull hard enough the gun will not fire. Just keep at it and u will get it. I can bump from the hip but still learning to do it from the shoulder.



thanks
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:19:43 PM EDT
When you buy a ligher trigger spring set why does it come with a disconnector spring? I can under stand the hammer and trigger springs. Is it just one of thoes things that if you change one you need to change all??
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:36:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dmcblaster:
Ya i know...seen his vids!! How can I make my trigger smoother?



Teflon grease on the hammer/sear surface works wonders.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:59:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 2:00:23 PM EDT by HarrySacz]

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
How bout a link to that video with the mag change



I put several of the vid clips together into one file................

"We don't need no stinkin' tax stamp!!"



Thats nuthin, i can bumpfire a Barret underwater.

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:37:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Not for nothing but a lighter trigger will do nothing to help you bumpfire from the shoulder. In fact, IMO, a light trigger will do nothing but cause the sear to not set and the hammer to ride the carrier back.
In my experience, the key to bumping from the shoulder is short trigger travel and smoothness. The slightest amount of "grittyness" will negatively affect the weapon's ability to "bump".



So what kind of trigger are you using?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 2:52:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Be very careful if you think of making bump firing devices. The ATF has an opinion letter that in some cases, a device (even a pisece of string) can become a machinegun if it isnt your finger pulling the trigger directly.



You mean one of these?




Image saved from a thread the auto section about a year back.

FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 3:50:40 PM EDT
Well I tried to polish up my sear...got it to a mirror finish. I put everything back togeather and dry fired it and couldnt really tell a differance. While i had everything apart I check for ruff edges and any burrs. The notch in the hammer looked and felt smooth. Ill just wait till I get my trigger springs in and see what happens.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 1:46:13 AM EDT
I think I just got a bumfire fever!!!
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:06:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lt557:

Originally Posted By rickinvegas:
Not for nothing but a lighter trigger will do nothing to help you bumpfire from the shoulder. In fact, IMO, a light trigger will do nothing but cause the sear to not set and the hammer to ride the carrier back.
In my experience, the key to bumping from the shoulder is short trigger travel and smoothness. The slightest amount of "grittyness" will negatively affect the weapon's ability to "bump".



So what kind of trigger are you using?



Yeah, I'd like to know also. Rickinvegas what kind of trigger do you run?
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 4:44:21 AM EDT
I can bump from the shoulder like nobody's business.

I use two triggers... either a standard service trigger with the "15 minute trigger job" (polished sears and one hammer spring leg clipped) or just a run of the mill RRA 2 stage trigger.

Sometimes with the 2-stage you get hammer follow.... it is hit or miss. I have 4 of them. 2 will bump like crazy. The two others, are "ok"
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 5:01:00 AM EDT
Where is the how to thread? Parts needed and such. Rickinvegas is the man.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 2:36:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tReznr:
Rickinvegas what kind of trigger do you run?



Not saying these are the only ones that will work but I use factory Olympic single stage fcg's.
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:43:01 PM EDT
So rick.... have you ever bumped a stock Bushmaster M4 14.5" bbl w/Izzy?
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