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Posted: 12/29/2005 4:18:43 PM EDT
i have not had the privalage of fireing an ar-10....but i have shot an m-14 alot.....i found the m-14 to be a very good weopon having fired it as much as i have......being the same calibre as they are.......which would you guy's prefer at 750 yds?......
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:22:12 PM EDT
Remington 700 at those ranges (for me at least)....

irons or optics (hopefully)

probably the AR10
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:24:51 PM EDT
With what has to go into them, I'd take an AR10 for a tack driver.

For a battle rifle, M14 hands down.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:26:18 PM EDT
optics on an m-14 are a good idea....i would say a leopold vx-3 goldring 3x9 would due......torso size if on stand.....no prob...off hand...very dificult
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:28:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gasbolt:
i have not had the privalage of fireing an ar-10....but i have shot an m-14 alot.....i found the m-14 to be a very good weopon having fired it as much as i have......being the same calibre as they are.......which would you guy's prefer at 750 yds?......



ATTENTION, Spelling and grammer Nazis, where are you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We need a Code 3 response on this one!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:39:23 PM EDT
*looks at screen name*

M14





WIZZO
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:43:46 PM EDT
yes my spelling does suck...but that does not sway my love for firearms......by the way..that is a nice m-14.......i'm shure you all have heard of carlos hathcock? he was a marine sniper in veitnam....he got 93 confirmed kills........he could put out a ten inch group at 1000 yds with the m-14.......with just a 3x9 redfeild........gives me a reashurance in the weopon.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:55:59 PM EDT
Gasbolt you are an unbelievable dumbshit. I served with Carlos in the USMC. I was privileged to have a few beers with him. Carlos achieved his 93 confirmed kills with a Winchester M70 in 30-06 scoped with a Redfield 3 to 9 variable. By the way after 22 years in the Marines I can spell and construct a simple sentence. Charles the Gunsmith CWO-3 USMC (ret).
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:56:01 PM EDT

iron sights or scoped ? iron sights the M14 wins IMHO

a legitimate argument can be made the AR10 is a better optics platform and probably
a more accurate rifle right out of the box (no bedding etc.)

but if you want something reliable avoid the AR10
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:00:32 PM EDT
well fuck you mister team member...i know he did not use the m-14 in the feild you cunt.......i read his fucking book...i said he COULD make that kind of a group with an m-14! i didnt say he walked around the woods with it! his fucking spoter/scout used the m-14......so shut the fuck up!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:04:21 PM EDT
and besides....you had the privalage to have a few beers with him?...well that is good...but that doesent mean that you followed him everywhere...or every time he went to the range!.....the only reason i respect you is the pure fact that you are a marine.....i will join soon also..if you were in nam....semper fideles marine...i respect that!.....but dont take me as some moron....i know he didnt use the m-14 in the feild.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:12:39 PM EDT
As you will soon learn in boot camp, I am YOUR superior officer, you chickenshit sand crab wanna be civilian. When, and IF, you get through boot camp, which I seriously doubt will happen, then we can talk. Don't talk about Carlos Hathcock or Vietnam, those a very special times and places and you have not yet paid your dues to do so. This thread proves you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Charles.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:13:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 5:17:56 PM EDT by nomadcrna]
1911 needs to grow up. Leave the guy alone.

Your treatment of somebody coming here with questions tells me you are/were probably a "wanna be". An NCO who treats his troops as you did, well. I'm sure you know that NCO's are/should be the teachers of the troops. Your "teaching" needs help.

Don't even pretend you are/were an officer.

Hoepfully the mods will silence you.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:20:42 PM EDT
i will make it through boot.....not easily but i will.....i was 305 pounds 2 years ago..i know what it means to be dedicated marine...i ran 80 pounds off of my fat ass with a backpack full of bricks to be eligable for the corps......and i am a fuckin wanna be....so what marine! your words are of no concern to me.....and yes in a stand point IF you were still in the corps you would be my superior officer....and i respect that also.........but that gives you no right to call me a chickenshit........put on a pair of 12 oz boxing gloves and come up here marine.......i know you would not call me that after you boxed me......that is if you could even talk.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:26:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 5:26:51 PM EDT by Msokol13]
I thought this would fit in nicely.

1911, calm down. The guy is just asking a few questions and doesnt know all the answers like you.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:35:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/30/2005 12:04:57 AM EDT by Dave_A]
Well, the Army is replacing the Remmy 700 (M-24) with a version of the Knight's SR-25...

Even without it becoming the new official SWS, I'd say...

AR-10/SR-25...

The biggest drawback of the M14 is the old-style reciever-bedded-into-stock design... Even if you 86 the wood (which is, obviously, a good idea - wood deforms from continuous firing, expands & contracts with temperature, and so on) you still have a stock-bedded-to-reciever design... The super-accurized match guns have to be handled very carefully to avoid disturbing carefully bedded & floated barrels...

Contrast this to any of the other major designs - the FAL, G3, and AR-10...

Oh, and the M14 if allowed to get 'dirty' may not 'jam' as AR-pattern weapons are said to do, instead it simply begins to degrade it's accuracy from the oprod binding in a fouled gas tube....

P.S. M1A is a Springfield Armory, Inc trade-name. There never was a militery M1A... Just full-auto M14s, and M14s rigged semi-only that were still M14s...
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:36:35 PM EDT
no comparison, AR10 for precision work,

although the m14 had its day, it has been surpassed in all areas of accuracy from the AR platform,

to acchieve maintain the the accuracy of an ar10 you are going to be spending a great deal of money. for the same cost you can get a top of the line ar10 with optics
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:40:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:47:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gasbolt:
i said he COULD make that kind of a group with an m-14! !



What do you offer for proof?

I've yet heard of a stock M14 that could do a 10" group at 500yards, let alone at 1000y. Even the highly modded M14s for DCM competiton would have an issue making that kind of group, and they sure don't hold up well in the field.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:06:22 PM EDT
Gasbolt, ive got one piece of advice for you, shut the fuck up and learn some respect before you even CONSIDER enlisting.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:09:09 PM EDT
I think it would depend on what role this rifle would play. If it's slapped around and such......M-14. Target shooting and the like would be served better with an ar. My type of shooting and what I typical do the m-14 is more to my liking. I love battle proven rifles although the 10 is no slouch. Personal preference for all practical purposes is a good way to go.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:38:27 PM EDT
First off those downing the 14 you do realise its still in service with SEALs and others.Second AR10s dont have chrome lined barrels necesary for a field rifle.#rd I emailed springfield armory and they told me they dont use chrome lined barrels anymore.I have an M14 and thats what I use for a .308 need.If AR10s came with chromelined barrels Id have one as 70% parts commonality with the AR is a good thing...but Im not throwing away my 14 anytime soon.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:47:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911builder:
Gasbolt you are an unbelievable dumbshit. I served with Carlos in the USMC. I was privileged to have a few beers with him. Carlos achieved his 93 confirmed kills with a Winchester M70 in 30-06 scoped with a Redfield 3 to 9 variable. By the way after 22 years in the Marines I can spell and construct a simple sentence. Charles the Gunsmith CWO-3 USMC (ret).



I can understand 1911builders pissynest . He was there. Not read in a book. But he was there. I guess it could pinch a nerve when someone quotes something from that time and era that you persoanlly experianced. Set them straight 1911builder.
Gasbolt strap that backpack on and run somemore. Glad you joined and hope you do well. Just shut up and listen. We need smart men out there dealing with this worlds scum. Semper Fi , Wardawg
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:11:03 PM EDT
copy wardog..i understand the respect issue..i really do..evey time i walk down the street and see a vfw i have always told them how much i apreciate them...they are true and just...those men of nam who went there for the cause..or in any war for that matter deserve ten times more respect than civilians BUT... i was never the person to take any random people's shit..i was always one to fight....other than patriotism,that is one of the biggest reasons i want to join the corps......and again...you are correct...yes i did read those "facts" in a book.....so instead of starting this with the word "dumbshit", he could have asked me where i heard that...and in a rebbudle he could have told me he served there with hathcock.....i would have been more respectfull if he had Respected me first without acusing me of stupid shit......i would be more willing to speak with a marine with experience over a book.....i still would, but that gives him no ground to speak the way he did.........frankly...that pissed me off.......but that is in the past now....i am not on this site to make enemy's...i am only here for a mutual respect of good firearms.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:25:06 PM EDT
Damn, did this thread hit the shitter in a hurry or what.

Both are great weapon platforms.

My ar10 is very reliable. Had one issue that was fixed immediately, and not one issue since. And I shoot it more than either of my 2 ar's or my rem 700 PSS. Yes my 700 is more accurate, but it's no where near as much fun, and the ar10Tc is a damn accurate rifle.

TXL
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:28:22 PM EDT

ar10's not having chrome lining armalite doest have anything thats not either stainless or or CL

m14s may be around, but ask anybody at the HQMC/warfighting lab, the Army Infantry Center how great the m14 is.

its a poor interim solution for a problem that is being addressed by the 7.62 AR. the only reason that the m14 is being used today is the avaibility, it would be imposible to get an sr25/ar10 into the DMR role for quite some time,

untill the scar or something newer is introduced the 7.62 AR is the most capable Semi auto weapon avaible today


Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:40:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By m4hk33:

untill the scar or something newer is introduced the 7.62 AR is the most capable Semi auto weapon avaible today




FAL is no slouch either
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:48:04 PM EDT
My Choice




Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:59:09 PM EDT
how do i post pics?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:25:28 PM EDT
I fogot about the FAL, good weapon, although ive never seen one that can shoot with an ar10, ive heard that great accuracy can be had with them and that they require less maintence than the m14,

only problem, its not in our invantory
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:41:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gasbolt:
and besides....you had the privalage to have a few beers with him?...well that is good...but that doesent mean that you followed him everywhere...or every time he went to the range!.....the only reason i respect you is the pure fact that you are a marine.....i will join soon also(there goes the neighborhood)..if you were in nam....semper fideles marine...i respect that!.....but dont take me as some moron....i know he didnt use the m-14 in the feild.




If you're not a moron, you REALLY need to sober up, use spell check and some soap for your potty mouth. They will do more for your argument than you've done so far. BTW, an ellipsis, which you are so fond of using, is only three periods (...), not how ever many you feel comfortable throwing down. ******Spelling Nazis UNITE!******
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:34:12 PM EDT
Man did this thread degenerate in a hurry....The only thing that sucks more than ignorant noobies is ARFCOM elitist pricks.....

While I LOVE the M14, especially the traditional M21*not the SA model* I feel its the worst choice for a semi automatic sniper weapon we have. The Mk11 is more accurate, easier to mount optics on including BUIS and doesn't require the maitnence and doesn't sacrafice durability and reliability for accuracy as the M25 does. The runner up would be MSG90's which are still in

limited use with some units, albeit very few. It is certainly possible to make an ultra accurate M14, anyone who has ever been to Camp Perry can tell you that, however combat reliability must be sacraficed or reduced to achieve the level of accuracy requried for sniper work. The only time I feel the M25 has the edge over the Mk11 is in the suppressed role. AR's get filthy, fast when fit with a can and the operating system of the M14 makes it more reliable when suppressed. Otherwise, its Mk 11 all the way.

The M14 really shines in the DMR role. Provided that its not a "supermatch" modified weapon, a scoped M14 with slight accuracy improvements like the M21 makes an excellent DMR weapon. Its much more rugged than a Mk11 with fragile precision optics. Sub MOA accuracy isn't required for the DMR role so the weapon doesn't require the reliability compromising mods of a true sniper weapon. It is also capable of firing rapid subsequent shots without nuking the barrel and still providing good accuracy.

That being said, AR10s don't really do it for me....I don't need a sub MOA or MOA 7.62 weapon so the accuracy advantage over the M1A is lost on me. As a civilian or SHTF, Im not sure if you can beat a decent quality "rack grade" M1A. Its hard to beat the ruggedness and reliability of a standard M14, especially in adverse conditions. If you desire a sniper type weapon, than I would say AR10 all they way...maybe even a DPMS in .300 RSUAM? So, for SHTF M1A. For long range sniper/hunting/competition and mounting optics, AR10. Both are excellent weapons that have strengths and weaknesses in particular roles.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 12:19:35 AM EDT
Can't advise through personal use, but a former 101st Scout Sniper I work with says they pitched a fit over the SR25/AR10 when it came in to replace their M21's. After getting over the "it's new I hate it" syndrome they decided they liked it better. Can't tell you anything more than that, I'll ask him at work next week if I still remember the thread...
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:03:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Joedan:
Gasbolt, ive got one piece of advice for you, shut the fuck up and learn some respect before you even CONSIDER enlisting.



+1 The language[gasp] I think his mouth is already a vet!
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 3:56:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m4hk33:
ar10's not having chrome lining armalite doest have anything thats not either stainless or or CL


The AR180B coming with a CL BBL now?

But I agree, Armalite lists several AR10 models that have a CL BBL.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 5:23:52 AM EDT
SR-25
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 11:41:34 PM EDT
Listen ( this is for gasbolt and Ryno). If telling some young perspective Marine that he REALLY needs to work on his grammar and spelling and punctuation makes me an elitist prick, well... pass the tea and crumpets. Listen, on the internet, you are judged by the facts you present and how you present them. Is there one Marine on this website whose drill sergeant would have accepted Anything in writing that looks anything like how this thread began without bitchslapping you back to those yellow footprints, please correct me. Gasbolt, I'll credit you for having the cojones to start a discussion, but listen, if you want to excel as a Marine and in life, learn to present yourself in a manner that garners respect.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 12:14:39 AM EDT
Hey gasbolt, I think the M-14 referred to in your book was probably one that was worked over and beaded by the Match Armorers. That is a totally different animal than the infantry grade M-14. Also, you might want to consider capitalizing Marine when you write. You're temper and lack of respect will get you beat down if you even make it to the Fleet. Trust me.

I would take a properly tuned AR-10 for long range accuracy work. And an M-4 for everything else.

USMC 8654 '93-'05
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 1:59:13 AM EDT
....SNAFU



*steps out of room*



(I like the m14, but that's just me )
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:46:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 3:50:31 AM EDT by Another-Bill]
TxLewis, I am glad your AR10 is reliable. I bought one soon after they came out, it was chrome lined and it was a jam-a-matic. It went back to Armalite 2 or 3 times, bolt recall, rough chamber etc. All of the 8 factory converted mags were a mess etc. I never felt comfortable enough with it to ever shoot an IPSC match with it which was why I bought it. I next bought an Arizona Response Systems www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/ FAL and that was a dream, great rifle and extremely easy to maintain. After that I bought a very early SA M1A NIB and it is all TRW, also a great rifle. Neither the FAL or the M1A have given problems and both are a joy to shoot. Both are stone stock and with good ammo I have gotten near MOA with each on occasions, not every time I pull the trigger, but they are stock battle rifles. The military is issuing a shitload of M14's for the Irag war in the form of the Cray Horse, www.smithenterprise.com/products02.html
This is a very popular rifle. Also note that I see a LOT of M14's as sniper rifles in various news paper and internet shots, I don't see much else other than the bolt guns. From what I understand, the newer AR10's are more reliable, I have a BAD taste in my mouth after droping that much money for what I got back then.

Bill
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:50:30 AM EDT
I have had an Armalite AR10 for at least 5 years. It has never let me down and I am very happy with its performance. Although I haven't tried any shots over 400yds with it yet, I am confident that with good optics it would perform excellent at 750yds.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:15:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:26:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gasbolt:
well fuck you mister team member...i know he did not use the m-14 in the feild you cunt.......i read his fucking book...i said he COULD make that kind of a group with an m-14! i didnt say he walked around the woods with it! his fucking spoter/scout used the m-14......so shut the fuck up!



*sniffs*

Smells like bannation.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:27:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 5:32:04 AM EDT by gplg]

Originally Posted By gasbolt:
and besides....you had the privalage to have a few beers with him?...well that is good...but that doesent mean that you followed him everywhere...or every time he went to the range!.....the only reason i respect you is the pure fact that you are a marine.....i will join soon also..if you were in nam....semper fideles marine...i respect that!.....but dont take me as some moron....i know he didnt use the m-14 in the feild.



If you learned how to spell, you wouldn't be mistaken for a moron as much.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:18:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 8:19:47 AM EDT by cnatra]

Originally Posted By Another-Bill:
TxLewis, I am glad your AR10 is reliable. I bought one soon after they came out, it was chrome lined and it was a jam-a-matic. It went back to Armalite 2 or 3 times, bolt recall, rough chamber etc. All of the 8 factory converted mags were a mess etc. I never felt comfortable enough with it to ever shoot an IPSC match with it which was why I bought it. I next bought an Arizona Response Systems www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/ FAL and that was a dream, great rifle and extremely easy to maintain. After that I bought a very early SA M1A NIB and it is all TRW, also a great rifle. Neither the FAL or the M1A have given problems and both are a joy to shoot. Both are stone stock and with good ammo I have gotten near MOA with each on occasions, not every time I pull the trigger, but they are stock battle rifles. The military is issuing a shitload of M14's for the Irag war in the form of the Cray Horse, www.smithenterprise.com/products02.html
This is a very popular rifle. Also note that I see a LOT of M14's as sniper rifles in various news paper and internet shots, I don't see much else other than the bolt guns. From what I understand, the newer AR10's are more reliable, I have a BAD taste in my mouth after droping that much money for what I got back then.
Bill



that echos my experience, especially with the AR10

I had a later M1A but sold that & now have two DSA FAL's & one built by Ed Vandenberg

I've thought about trying a newer AR10 & was eyeing the Bushmaster .308(now gone) or the
.308 DPMS(seems to get positive reviews) because there's no question the ergonomics are better
on an AR style rifle & it's definitely a better optics platform BUT I'm still wary.

maybe a SCAR .308
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:21:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Another-Bill:
TxLewis, I am glad your AR10 is reliable. I bought one soon after they came out, it was chrome lined and it was a jam-a-matic. It went back to Armalite 2 or 3 times, bolt recall, rough chamber etc. All of the 8 factory converted mags were a mess etc. I never felt comfortable enough with it to ever shoot an IPSC match with it which was why I bought it.



The early AR-10s had failures to extract primarily because they needed to reinforce the extractor spring. Once Dave_G demonstrated that this problem could be alleviated with by placing two Armforte D-rings around the extractor springs, the problem was solved. ArmaLite started to place "O-rings" around the springs, following Dave_G's lead. My AR-10A2 has been very reliable ever since Dave_G performed his magic on it.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:39:44 AM EDT
I'm pretty much sick of the 1911 Forum because of the OVER moderation. But gezz, I've gotta ask, does ANYBODY moderate this bunch of yahoos over here? Its pretty funny. I've been around a lot of Viet Nam vets, but none of them acted anything like ones you come across on the net! I guess the history books are probably wrong. There had to have been at least 75 million GIs and Marines in Viet Nam!
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:17:51 PM EDT
bigcountry,
It's "prospective" not "perspective". If you're going to be an ARFCOM elitist, you've got to spell correctly AND use the right words.

Sorry about that. I was just passing by and noticed the flames burning, and decided to toss a log on the fire. What a thread!
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:27:26 PM EDT
Don't we have an AR-10 forum?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:32:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
Don't we have an AR-10 forum?



you know it
www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=62
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