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Posted: 12/26/2005 5:15:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:45:46 PM EDT
Here's some free advice:

Pay your medical bills first. Seriously.

Happy Holidays and get well.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:14:09 PM EDT
i may have a peel washer or a detent laying around. $20 for shipping & they're yours
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:17:30 PM EDT
all i got is a pair of rifle length HGs, a accuwedge, and a gas tube pin

watcha going to do for ammo?
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:17:46 PM EDT
The trick to cheap builds is not being specific. Needing it to be M4 is whats going to cause issues.


On a brighter note, if you were in the military or on my squad..... ahh never mind, its not really the place for it, but your comment on medical bills is probably giving all the military guys the same thoughts.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:25:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:02:29 PM EDT
Posted this on another thread, but it may be helpful here:


Just my .02........

My first AR platform was an M16A2 that I carried as an Infantry Rifleman / Security Forces Marine while in the USMC. I often find myself comparing the quality of civilan AR15's to the quality that I came accustom to on the Colt M16A2.

In my opinion DPMS and Olympic are junk (owned both, and during the numerous Tactical Carbine courses I have attended over the years DPMS, Olympic, Modle 1 Sales, home brews, parts guns, and other tier III manufacturers guns tend to go tits up at a MUCH high rate than quality manufacturers). I have owned several Eagle and Armalite AR's and none of them have impressed me.

For the last decade I have been a Bushmaster type of guy. That being said I currently don't recommend them. Over the last 12 years I have owned 20 to 30 Bushmasters. What I have noticed with Bushmaster is when the demand for their guns are high, their quality really suffers. I really noticed this pre and post Y2K and pre and post Assault Weapons Ban Sunset. In the last 18 months I have purchased 4 Bushmasters. All 4 had to go back to the factory for different quality control / reliability issues. Some of them even had to back to the factory more than once.

I have seen some problems with LMT (uppers not true, etc), not many, but enough for "me" not to purchase from LMT.


Currently I recommend and use Stag Arms (aka CMT), Rock River Arms, and Colt. I would give a definate edge to Stag (CMT) due to the price and features (mil spec buffer tube, covered firing pin on bolt carrier, etc). I recently purchased 2 Stag guns, and the upper to lower fit is superior to any other gun I have on hand (Colt LE6920's, Rock River Arms, Bushmasters, etc)


Here is a post I wrote on another thread on another forum in reference to Stag Arms:



Just my opinion, but during Patrol Rifle classes, SWAT Carbine classes, Carbine classes that I attend, and Tactical Carbine classes that I help instruct, I see more problems with guns that have parts made from several manufacturers.

In a recent carbine class one guy had a complete Olympic lower with a complete Colt lower and another guy that had a complete Bushmaster lower and a complete DPMS upper. Both guys had trouble with their guns. All the factory complete guns were running fine.


Here is a quote from a student who had a gun with a different upper and lower come to a Tactical Carbine class and his gun went tit's up:

"This rifle had previously been part of some sick frankenblaster, and after some bad experiences with it at a Tactical Response Carbine Course, and some sage advise by our own Jeff Carpenter, it has been restored to its core factory components. "

See the entire thread here: getoffthex.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/182106881/m/396100896

I just wrote this for a friend who live here in Colorado and had planned on getting a Colt LE6920 once he got back from Iraq:


I've got 3 Colt LE6920's and I paid around $950 each for plus $100 to have Ken Elmore at S.A.W. do his reliablity upgrade on a each gun.

CMT is Contentinal Machine and Tool (not to be confused with LMT Lewis Machine and Tool). CMT and Stag Arms are the SAME COMPANY. CMT / Stag is the sub-contractor who makes Colt's uppers, lowers, etc, and they also make the same parts for Rock River Arms.

I had heard a lot of good things about CMT / Stag and have had the chance to check out quite a few of their guns recently. I am very impressed with the fit, finish, qulaity, and features on the Stag Arms guns.

When comparing my Colt LE6920's to factory Stag Arms M4's here are the only difference I noted:

-Stag has a 1/9" twist barrel, the Colt a 1/7" (but both have the Colt M4 feed ramps). Barrel twist is a non issue as most of us shoot 55 grain to 62 grain ammo 99% of the time.

-The Stag finish was about 1 shade darker, you had to look had at both and be in direct sunlight to tell the difference.

-The Stag has a Colt mil-spec buffer tube, but has 6 positions instead of the 4 on the Colt buffer tube....Because Stag makes Colt's buffer tubes, they are the same spec....Both Vltor and LMT SOPMOD stocks will fit perfectly on the Stag tube.

-The Stag handguard only had 1 heat shiled.

-The Stag has a M16 style bolt carrier that covers the firing pin. The Colt has Colt's nuetered bolt carrier group. I prefer Stag's bolt carrier group.

If you got to www.stagarms.com they only offer 3 different carbines and 1 20" flat top AR15A3. On Stag's website the guns start off at $900 and go up. NONE of Stag's dealers (that I could find) carry COMPLETE Rifle / Carbines. BUT many of the dealers carry COMPLETE UPPERS and COMPLETE LOWERS (you just have to put the upper on the lower and close the pins).

www.eaglefirearms.net in Brighton, CO. carries the COMPLETE Carbine lower for $215 and the COMPLETE M4 upper (no carry handle) for $429. That is $644 (plus tax, shipping, and transfer fee....still under $700) for a COMPLETE M4 carbine, that is pretty much the same thing as the Colt LE6920. Excluding tax, shipping, transfer fee, you can buy 2 Stag M4's for the price of the average LE6920 (average civilian price on a Colt 6920 is $1250 to $1350).

I just bought 2 complete Stag Carbine's (minus the barrel). I'm putting Rock River Arms mid-length barrels (custom countoured for me by ADCO Firearms) on both guns.

The way I understand it is, CMT has been in buisness as a sub-contractor for well known quality AR15 manufacturers for quite some time (Colt and Rock River Arms). In 2003 CMT came out with a "retail" line of their own and named it "Stag Arms". Don't quote me on this but from what I was told some time ago, it's a father / son team. Dad runs CMT while son runs Stag Arms.


You can NOT beat the quality or the price. A COMPLETE M4 carbine for $644 ...... you can't even build a piece of shit parts gun for that.....It's a NO BRAINER.....there should be NO REASON for me to see another DMPS Upper / Colt lower, or Colt Upper / Olympic Lower, or Model 1 Sales Upper / Bushmaster Lower, or just a parts gun in general at a class ever again!!!

Good luck

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:10:52 PM EDT
Without commenting on what the issues are that you have seen, the above isn't much help. To say that X, Y, or Z is bad, without giving a reason as to what the actual issues are, there isn't much being gained.

It isn't that I disagree with you, its that I've seen Colts and just about every other make go down as well. Examples help in a large way, but that is probably more as an instructor/ armorer who fixes them after they break.

This might be better served as its own thread now that I think about it. If you get a chance, can you start one in the builder section?


Thanks
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:52:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Don't worry about that. I'm paying them off faster than the hospital and doctors have asked me to do. I'm doubling my expected payments. And I have a LITTLE bit of money to spend thanks to some good deals I made on some surplus equipment I bought cheap and sold for much more.

I know I could put together "AN UPPER" for very, very little, but I want something that's definitely in the M4 category. And focused on raw simplicity. My A2 is as close to "as issued" M16A2 configuration as I can manage, and I want the same for an M4 type upper. No frills, just what's
required to make it an "as issued" M4 type or very close to it.

I can accessorize at any time. But first I want to get a basic upper together.

Let's start out simple: A4 flattop receiver, bolt, bolt carrier, and barrel. Add small parts as I go along.

Oh, I'm looking for a tele stock, too. 4 position, I guess?

Yes, I do have an armorer's action block and barrel wrench. I can handle most armorer's tasks,
as my A2 was COMPLETELY built by me and I even milled the lower out from a zero percent forging.


CJ



How about you sell the mill you built the lower with and get the upper of your dreams?

Pay you medical bills first.

Bob
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:36:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Without commenting on what the issues are that you have seen, the above isn't much help. To say that X, Y, or Z is bad, without giving a reason as to what the actual issues are, there isn't much being gained.

It isn't that I disagree with you, its that I've seen Colts and just about every other make go down as well. Examples help in a large way, but that is probably more as an instructor/ armorer who fixes them after they break.

This might be better served as its own thread now that I think about it. If you get a chance, can you start one in the builder section?


Thanks



+1. I would like to see a thread dedicated to the failure modes and defects that have been seen in various brands of AR15s by amorers/trainers/LE/etc that get to see more rifles than the average joe. If it could be a open minded thread without anyone seeing it as brand bashing I think a lot could be gained for those of us that don't have the opportunity see all of the brands in action.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 2:12:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:

Yes, I do have an armorer's action block and barrel wrench. I can handle most armorer's tasks,
as my A2 was COMPLETELY built by me and I even milled the lower out from a zero percent forging.


CJ

Cant you just mill your upper out of a block like you did your lower!
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 2:17:42 AM EDT
Here is a little inspiration for you. Built from parts from the EE for $550.



I am sure it is not the cheapest, but the upper was fully assembled.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 2:20:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 2:55:00 AM EDT
How do I *know* your not a felon? I sure would hate for you to get raided and the ATF find a bunch of boxes with return addresses inside your house with parts in it. I do *KNOW* how pissed off all those ARFCOMMERS would be if they got a visit from their Local BATFE agent. EdavilaSr might be unhappy with ten million posts all titled "I got visited by the ATF today!!"


I think its a bad idea to go requesting free stuff. pay your bills, save some money, buy your own or buy your own parts
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:42:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Without commenting on what the issues are that you have seen, the above isn't much help. To say that X, Y, or Z is bad, without giving a reason as to what the actual issues are, there isn't much being gained.

It isn't that I disagree with you, its that I've seen Colts and just about every other make go down as well. Examples help in a large way, but that is probably more as an instructor/ armorer who fixes them after they break.

This might be better served as its own thread now that I think about it. If you get a chance, can you start one in the builder section?


Thanks



I agree with Stick for whats it worth.

And to say a home build or put together rifle is worse then a Bushmaster is just wrong. Every rifle I own is a home brew and I would never again waste my money on a complete rifle unless its something really special.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:32:20 AM EDT
sorry about your medical situation but since youre paying the bills off in no time then you should have funds for a new upper in no time as well
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:19:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 7:22:16 AM EDT by CTKurt]

Originally Posted By USMC03:
DMPS Upper / Colt lower, or Colt Upper / Olympic Lower, or Model 1 Sales Upper / Bushmaster Lower, or just a parts gun in general at a class ever again!!!

Good luck



I am building an oly stop sign lower colt m4 upper rifle as we speak. <pre ban state
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:20:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 7:23:29 AM EDT by repub18]

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Without commenting on what the issues are that you have seen, the above isn't much help. To say that X, Y, or Z is bad, without giving a reason as to what the actual issues are, there isn't much being gained.

It isn't that I disagree with you, its that I've seen Colts and just about every other make go down as well. Examples help in a large way, but that is probably more as an instructor/ armorer who fixes them after they break.

This might be better served as its own thread now that I think about it. If you get a chance, can you start one in the builder section?


Thanks



I agree with Stick for whats it worth.

And to say a home build or put together rifle is worse then a Bushmaster is just wrong. Every rifle I own is a home brew and I would never again waste my money on a complete rifle unless its something really special.



I also find it funny that people bash home brews but yet a lot of factory rifles are nothing but parts from different contractors put together.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:27:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
How do I *know* your not a felon?





When you make a post like the above, and you have under your avatar that you are a LEO, you are making me, and the rest of my brothers and sisters look bad.

If your comment was meant in humor, and I am just missing it, disregard.

Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:46:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 7:47:28 AM EDT by repub18]

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
How do I *know* your not a felon? I sure would hate for you to get raided and the ATF find a bunch of boxes with return addresses inside your house with parts in it. I do *KNOW* how pissed off all those ARFCOMMERS would be if they got a visit from their Local BATFE agent. EdavilaSr might be unhappy with ten million posts all titled "I got visited by the ATF today!!"


I think its a bad idea to go requesting free stuff. pay your bills, save some money, buy your own or buy your own parts




WTF? How is that any different than buying and selling things on the EE.

and I don't remember reading where he asked for "free" stuff.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:50:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
How do I *know* your not a felon? I sure would hate for you to get raided and the ATF find a bunch of boxes with return addresses inside your house with parts in it. I do *KNOW* how pissed off all those ARFCOMMERS would be if they got a visit from their Local BATFE agent. EdavilaSr might be unhappy with ten million posts all titled "I got visited by the ATF today!!"


I think its a bad idea to go requesting free stuff. pay your bills, save some money, buy your own or buy your own parts But he may be a felon!

Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:55:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 8:11:34 AM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Without commenting on what the issues are that you have seen, the above isn't much help. To say that X, Y, or Z is bad, without giving a reason as to what the actual issues are, there isn't much being gained.



I'll disagree a bit. Jeff's comments are not very different from those of other major trainers (Giles Stock1 and Pat Rogers2 come to mind). Yes you can find problems with ANY manufacturer, but the trends show that Colt produces far fewer lemmons per 1000, Bushmaster has a few more, and it goes up from there.

I've not heard the other trainers comment on CMT/Stag/RRA except to say they have not yet seen enough to draw any conclusions.

1. Comments made by during FIRE institute carbine classes June& July 2003
2. Comments posted at TacticalForum
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:09:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 8:13:22 AM EDT by FlyingFive0]

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By Citabria7GCBC:
How do I *know* your not a felon?





When you make a post like the above, and you have under your avatar that you are a LEO, you are making me, and the rest of my brothers and sisters look bad.

If your comment was meant in humor, and I am just missing it, disregard.


+1. And people need to go back and read the guys initial post. HE IS PAYING HIS MEDICAL BILLS!!!!! He just doesn't have much left over to play with. Reading comprehension is what it is all about folks! And to the guy saying rifles with different lowers and different uppers are not worth a crap, tell the builders of those rifles to hang out here in the build it yourself forum and learn a few things first. I have never had a function problem with any rifle I have ever built. To say all DPMS or whatever else brand are bad is just plain nonsense!
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:12:50 AM EDT
Not a good hobby for a broke person.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:56:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 8:58:22 AM EDT by Stickman]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Without commenting on what the issues are that you have seen, the above isn't much help. To say that X, Y, or Z is bad, without giving a reason as to what the actual issues are, there isn't much being gained.



I'll disagree a bit. Jeff's comments are not very different from those of other major trainers (Giles Stock1 and Pat Rogers2 come to mind). Yes you can find problems with ANY manufacturer, but the trends show that Colt produces far fewer lemmons per 1000, Bushmaster has a few more, and it goes up from there.

I've not heard the other trainers comment on CMT/Stag/RRA except to say they have not yet seen enough to draw any conclusions.

1. Comments made by during FIRE institute carbine classes June& July 2003
2. Comments posted at TacticalForum




I wasn't clear enough evidently. Its not a matter of disagreeing, its more a matter of finding out from a variety of trainers (who are not tied to any brand) what issues they see. Pointing out problem areas so that others can learn is where I was going. Things tend to run in cycles, and I don't buy into the idea that issues from a few years ago are always the same issues that we still face with brands of weapons. New things pop up, and old things are fixed. I hope that makes a little more sense now, and I probably should have included that from the start.

I run a hybrid weapon, which I would have no issues running against anything out there. I'll also point out that anytime you are buying a factory weapon, and altering anything, you no longer have a factory gun. That goes for anything as simple as dropping in a Dfender ring to aid extraction, or changing out the pistol grip.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 8:57:19 AM EDT
On top of that, he is asking about upper parts. I didn't know that a felon couldn't own parts for an upper, barrels, handguards, upper receivers?? Maybe I learned something today.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 1:38:04 PM EDT
Upper parts are just metal parts,a felon cant get near a lower.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 2:25:12 PM EDT
Ya, I was saying that more tounge in cheek than anything.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 4:17:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By repub18:

Originally Posted By Dace:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Without commenting on what the issues are that you have seen, the above isn't much help. To say that X, Y, or Z is bad, without giving a reason as to what the actual issues are, there isn't much being gained.

It isn't that I disagree with you, its that I've seen Colts and just about every other make go down as well. Examples help in a large way, but that is probably more as an instructor/ armorer who fixes them after they break.

This might be better served as its own thread now that I think about it. If you get a chance, can you start one in the builder section?


Thanks





I agree with Stick for whats it worth.

And to say a home build or put together rifle is worse then a Bushmaster is just wrong. Every rifle I own is a home brew and I would never again waste my money on a complete rifle unless its something really special.



I also find it funny that people bash home brews but yet a lot of factory rifles are nothing but parts from different contractors put together.



A lot? How about almost every one of them.

I mean I can name maybe 4 or 5 manufacturers that make every major part of their rifle.

Olympic
DPMS
Stag
Saber
<­BR>Every other one as far as I know contracts out some if not most of the major components.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 4:38:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
I'd like to have an M4gery upper for my rifle. But I'm really not in a position to spend much right now
as I'm still paying off medical bills.

Maybe some of you would like to help out by giving me some great deals on some serviceable but
not particularly pretty upper parts?

Anyone got a 16" (or 14.5 and I'll weld an FH on) barrel or maybe an A2 upper hanging around that's
not worth much to you but you haven't had the heart to throw it out yet?

CJ




I wish I could have helped, but you are to late. I gave Garanditis a 16" Bushy Chrome lined M4 upper with about 600 rounds through it for his Christmas present.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:17:42 PM EDT
cm,

I have an A2 upper that has been down the road. I swapped it out for a flattop. If you are interested, I can send you some pics and we'll see what we can work out. It's just been sitting on my reloading bench taking up space for a while. Cheap is the word!!
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:30:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Thekatar:
Here's some free advice:

Pay your medical bills first. Seriously.

Happy Holidays and get well.



+1
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 7:01:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:54:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 11:54:42 PM EDT by eklikwhoa]
im going to start a similar thread as well cause i want good quality parts for below retail as well



Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:51:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eklikwhoa:
im going to start a similar thread as well cause i want good quality parts for below retail as well






Me too! Seems like a good idea. Can someone help me out? I am paying all my bills but I don't want to over exert my wallet. Surely you can understand and hook a fellow ARFCOM'er out? You know nothing for free, just cheap prices.

Bob
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:56:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:08:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 7:08:40 PM EDT by MrsGloftoe]
Please post WTS WTT WTB in the EE. Thanks!
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