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Posted: 12/25/2005 10:22:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 8:30:20 AM EDT by HK_Shooter_03]
I already know this is a dupe!

Dupe Nazi's can go to "you know where" and go "you know what" to themselves!



Merry Christmas


Poll Incoming

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:24:55 PM EDT
My A2 carbine is iron sight old school the other carbine flattop YHM railed uber-tactical has a EO
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:26:51 PM EDT
Both. I prefer optics, but irons are fun, and practicing with a BUIS is necessary.
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:39:08 PM EDT
both

i like optics for close in (red dots) and irons for long distances
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:54:58 PM EDT
Both, this is ARFcom, after all

WIZZO
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:30:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 11:37:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Both, this is ARFcom, after all

WIZZO



+1
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 1:16:11 AM EDT
I have identical uppers except one is a flat top with an ACOG on it and one is a regual top with A2 sights on it.

For work I use an ACOG
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 1:24:47 AM EDT
Iron.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 1:26:13 AM EDT
Iron sights only here. Mounting an optic on my carry handle doesnt work too well.

I'm sure in a future purchase I will get a flat-top so I can mount a scope...just not interested in it right now. I'd rather put the money toward other things.

Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:39:49 AM EDT
I used irons in the Army and loved em, only recently have I discovered there is a whole new world with optics. I still enjoy the irons but for practical purposes I don't use them, I spend my time learning about scoped shooting now and have them for my M4, SLR105 and NDM86.

I always thought I was a reasonable shot with the M16A2 because I could consistently fire expert with it, but when you can actually see your shot groups through a scope you realize that you have actually only learned the basics from the military...and suddenly it makes sense why they call it Basic Rifle Marksmanship



Z
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 3:03:32 AM EDT
Both
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 4:10:30 AM EDT
TA11 satays mounted but at the range I practice with both the ACOG and irons.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:34:45 AM EDT
I use both.The aimpoint is for night shooting and low light..irons for everything else.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 5:57:11 AM EDT
Proper shooting technique yields iron sight groups that are hard to best with a scope.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:19:34 AM EDT
Irons - Cause I'm too poor too afford a decent optic

Right now
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:20:18 AM EDT
Well seeing as how I only have irons...
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:14:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:
Proper shooting technique yields iron sight groups that are hard to best with a scope.



it all comes down to tshooting but you cant hit what you cant see, and optics allow faster shots on targets then irons this is being proven over and over again
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:24:54 AM EDT
I prefer irons....though I have no issue with optics.....they can be a hell of a lot of fun.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:37:46 AM EDT
Aimpoint for speed and CQB type stuff. Irons for distance.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:42:27 AM EDT
SWO_daddy

Proper shooting technique yields iron sight groups that are hard to best with a scope.


Somebody drank the CMP Highpower Koolaid....

Amazing you don't see a lot of bench rest shooters using irons...
That statement is just plain wrong........
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:44:23 AM EDT
I use Irons
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:01:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/26/2005 10:21:56 AM EDT by SWO_daddy]

Originally Posted By Harv24:
SWO_daddy

Proper shooting technique yields iron sight groups that are hard to best with a scope.


Somebody drank the CMP Highpower Koolaid....

Amazing you don't see a lot of bench rest shooters using irons...
That statement is just plain wrong........


If you go back a read what I wrote again, you might notice that I didn't say that one can shoot the tightest groups with irons. I said that if one knows how, once can shoot groups that are very hard to beat with a scope.


Denis Demille's national record. Three ten-shot strings, 60 seconds or less each, from a sitting position. Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:36:27 AM EDT
Optics mostly, but practice with irons fairly often.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:46:49 AM EDT
Optics 90% of the time. I'll admit it.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 11:07:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.



If you're gonna use Palma sights, you might as well be using a scope. Do it with issue A2 sights and I'll pay attention.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 12:06:14 PM EDT
I like irons, for some reason I hate red dots, and I rarely ever use a scope.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 12:46:45 PM EDT
optics, hands down
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 1:04:51 PM EDT
80% irons, 20% scope.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 1:14:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.



If you're gonna use Palma sights, you might as well be using a scope. Do it with issue A2 sights and I'll pay attention.



Better yet, give him time on a scope and what what happens.

If you can't understand that a magnified target at distance results in higher abilities, there is something wrong.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:12:52 PM EDT
Irongs on my HK41, thats the way I trained with the G3 and it works well. I use the stock 1.5x optic on my Steyr AUG and like that better than any other sight Ive tried. Schmidt & Bender scopes on my 22 and big game rifles.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:13:47 PM EDT
From SWO_daddy

Denis Demille's national record. Three ten-shot strings, 60 seconds or less each, from a sitting position. Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.


Yea..like that's an Apple's to Apples Analogy.....
That rifle stopped being an AR a lonnngggg time ago. and with Palma sights and match ammo with a Highmaster behind the trigger.


I know you love Highpower(and I do to) and all your Hero's wear Creedmore Shooting hjackets but it's just one discipline. For the masses of AR shooters, they are going to be more accurate with optics that uses one point of reference and are very forgiving of lack of technique vs. Normal (read Rack grade) Irons sights that use 2 points to reference and are not very forgiving to any errors in sight picture.

If you can argue that point then you have the buckles on your shooting jacket cinched up Waaayyyy to tight...
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 2:22:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Harv24:
From SWO_daddy

Denis Demille's national record. Three ten-shot strings, 60 seconds or less each, from a sitting position. Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.


Yea..like that's an Apple's to Apples Analogy.....
That rifle stopped being an AR a lonnngggg time ago. and with Palma sights and match ammo with a Highmaster behind the trigger.


I know you love Highpower(and I do to) and all your Hero's wear Creedmore Shooting hjackets but it's just one discipline. For the masses of AR shooters, they are going to be more accurate with optics that uses one point of reference and are very forgiving of lack of technique vs. Normal (read Rack grade) Irons sights that use 2 points to reference and are not very forgiving to any errors in sight picture.

If you can argue that point then you have the buckles on your shooting jacket cinched up Waaayyyy to tight...


I can't say I disagree with anything except the part about that rifle "stopped being an AR a long time ago".

It never was an AR. It's a bolt action TUBB 2000. Look closely at the bolt handle riding inside the buttstock tube.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 3:23:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.



If you're gonna use Palma sights, you might as well be using a scope. Do it with issue A2 sights and I'll pay attention.



I thought this was an AR discussion, SWO_daddy.

95% Aimpoint and 5% BUIS or 19 out of 20 mags with Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 3:26:01 PM EDT
Other than annual qual, it is almost all RCO with the carbine.

Allot of time with the irons on the M9 though.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 4:38:18 PM EDT
Both...'cause its the ARFCOM way!
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 6:29:24 PM EDT
Originally from SWO_daddy

It never was an AR. It's a bolt action TUBB 2000. Look closely at the bolt handle riding inside the buttstock tube.



Ya got me their....
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:55:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Submariner:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.



If you're gonna use Palma sights, you might as well be using a scope. Do it with issue A2 sights and I'll pay attention.



I thought this was an AR discussion, SWO_daddy.

95% Aimpoint and 5% BUIS or 19 out of 20 mags with Aimpoint.


Irons are irons. They all work the same.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 8:07:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By Harv24:
SWO_daddy

Proper shooting technique yields iron sight groups that are hard to best with a scope.


Somebody drank the CMP Highpower Koolaid....

Amazing you don't see a lot of bench rest shooters using irons...
That statement is just plain wrong........


If you go back a read what I wrote again, you might notice that I didn't say that one can shoot the tightest groups with irons. I said that if one knows how, once can shoot groups that are very hard to beat with a scope.
www.zediker.com/books/ar15/dennis640.jpg
www.zediker.com/books/ar15/rfrecord640.jpg
Denis Demille's national record. Three ten-shot strings, 60 seconds or less each, from a sitting position. Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.



If the bad guys sit long enough to shoot at them like that, than irons would be fine. Self Defense and combat "I think" are in a more fluid way. I've only used irons and traditional scopes, but I'm ramping up for an eothingy or red dot for HD and hunting and plinking.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 10:33:59 PM EDT
Glock Photee



But seriously both irons and optics. Most of my rifles have irons and it' just good to stay proficient with irons.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 3:00:11 AM EDT
Skill with irons is the steppingstone for optics. If you cant shoot well with irons, you cant shoot well with optics, though you may think you can. The DMR course has a significant portion shot with irons, or BUIS for the unfortunate.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 3:20:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USNTopGun378:
Skill with irons is the steppingstone for optics. If you cant shoot well with irons, you cant shoot well with optics, though you may think you can. The DMR course has a significant portion shot with irons, or BUIS for the unfortunate.



That is because the POI for the course was designed by competition shooters, contrast the DMR/SAM-R course on the Marine side that is all optics because the GySgt who designed it came from the SS community.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 3:28:38 AM EDT
yes...again...in the spirit of ARFcom


both


Leapers T168 for when I feel like using optics day/night, and if I want to use my irons, I just move the AR up about an inch so I can look through my A2 ring and see my Trijicon tritium front sight post
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 3:43:21 AM EDT
I use both but as I get older I find myself usinf optics more
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:47:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By Harv24:
SWO_daddy

Proper shooting technique yields iron sight groups that are hard to best with a scope.


Somebody drank the CMP Highpower Koolaid....

Amazing you don't see a lot of bench rest shooters using irons...
That statement is just plain wrong........


If you go back a read what I wrote again, you might notice that I didn't say that one can shoot the tightest groups with irons. I said that if one knows how, once can shoot groups that are very hard to beat with a scope.
www.zediker.com/books/ar15/dennis640.jpg
www.zediker.com/books/ar15/rfrecord640.jpg
Denis Demille's national record. Three ten-shot strings, 60 seconds or less each, from a sitting position. Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.



If the bad guys sit long enough to shoot at them like that, than irons would be fine. Self Defense and combat "I think" are in a more fluid way. I've only used irons and traditional scopes, but I'm ramping up for an eothingy or red dot for HD and hunting and plinking.


I didn't put up those pics to show what is achievable under combat conditions. I did so to show the potential of the ultimate iron sight setup in the hands of an ultra skileld shooter.

IIRC, WW2 was mostly a war of maneuver with lots of urban combat in Europe (kinds like Iraq now) and lots of jungle combat in the Pacific. Lots of enemy soldiers were put down by American GIs with nothing but a front blade/rear aperture sight in very fluid, tactically confusing engagements.

Would WW2 GIs had loved to have an Aimpoint? Sure. Could they have been more effective? Sure. Did they get the job done in urban combat not much different than today? Yep.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 5:48:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By USNTopGun378:
Skill with irons is the steppingstone for optics. If you cant shoot well with irons, you cant shoot well with optics, though you may think you can. The DMR course has a significant portion shot with irons, or BUIS for the unfortunate.



That is because the POI for the course was designed by competition shooters, contrast the DMR/SAM-R course on the Marine side that is all optics because the GySgt who designed it came from the SS community.


Could it be that the use of irons for some portions of the Army SDM course is driven by the need to train with all sighting options available? Just asking.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:57:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By USNTopGun378:
Skill with irons is the steppingstone for optics. If you cant shoot well with irons, you cant shoot well with optics, though you may think you can. The DMR course has a significant portion shot with irons, or BUIS for the unfortunate.



That is because the POI for the course was designed by competition shooters, contrast the DMR/SAM-R course on the Marine side that is all optics because the GySgt who designed it came from the SS community.


Could it be that the use of irons for some portions of the Army SDM course is driven by the need to train with all sighting options available? Just asking.



Yes it could be, the assumption I guess is they know nothing and must start from scratch. Personally I think it is close to training someone to drive on NVG, yet most of the course is driving blackout without them.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:01:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 3:27:58 PM EDT by STLRN]

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By JJREA:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By Harv24:
SWO_daddy

Proper shooting technique yields iron sight groups that are hard to best with a scope.


Somebody drank the CMP Highpower Koolaid....

Amazing you don't see a lot of bench rest shooters using irons...
That statement is just plain wrong........


If you go back a read what I wrote again, you might notice that I didn't say that one can shoot the tightest groups with irons. I said that if one knows how, once can shoot groups that are very hard to beat with a scope.
www.zediker.com/books/ar15/dennis640.jpg
www.zediker.com/books/ar15/rfrecord640.jpg
Denis Demille's national record. Three ten-shot strings, 60 seconds or less each, from a sitting position. Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.



If the bad guys sit long enough to shoot at them like that, than irons would be fine. Self Defense and combat "I think" are in a more fluid way. I've only used irons and traditional scopes, but I'm ramping up for an eothingy or red dot for HD and hunting and plinking.


I didn't put up those pics to show what is achievable under combat conditions. I did so to show the potential of the ultimate iron sight setup in the hands of an ultra skileld shooter.

IIRC, WW2 was mostly a war of maneuver with lots of urban combat in Europe (kinds like Iraq now) and lots of jungle combat in the Pacific. Lots of enemy soldiers were put down by American GIs with nothing but a front blade/rear aperture sight in very fluid, tactically confusing engagements.

Would WW2 GIs had loved to have an Aimpoint? Sure. Could they have been more effective? Sure. Did they get the job done in urban combat not much different than today? Yep.



WWII saw the majority of enemy wounds coming from HE, small arms fire was less than 10 percent of wounds and of that small percent most were caused by automatic weapon, crew served and BARs. So yes the old GIs slogged on without the optic sights, but that is only part of the equation.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:05:45 PM EDT
90% optics, 10% irons.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 12:25:16 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 2:32:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Harv24:
From SWO_daddy

Denis Demille's national record. Three ten-shot strings, 60 seconds or less each, from a sitting position. Do better with a scope, under similar conditions, and I'll pay attention.


Yea..like that's an Apple's to Apples Analogy.....
That rifle stopped being an AR a lonnngggg time ago. and with Palma sights and match ammo with a Highmaster behind the trigger.


I know you love Highpower(and I do to) and all your Hero's wear Creedmore Shooting hjackets but it's just one discipline. For the masses of AR shooters, they are going to be more accurate with optics that uses one point of reference and are very forgiving of lack of technique vs. Normal (read Rack grade) Irons sights that use 2 points to reference and are not very forgiving to any errors in sight picture.

If you can argue that point then you have the buckles on your shooting jacket cinched up Waaayyyy to tight...



So when am I going to see you at a highpower match, Pat?
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