Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Skill with irons is the steppingstone for optics.  If you cant shoot well with irons, you cant shoot well with optics, though you may think you can.  The DMR course has a significant portion shot with irons, or BUIS for the unfortunate. That is because the POI for the course was designed by competition shooters, contrast the DMR/SAM-R course on the Marine side that is all optics because the GySgt who designed it came from the SS community. Could it be that the use of irons for some portions of the Army SDM course is driven by the need to train with all sighting options available?  Just asking.

It could be that the iron sight foundation has been already laid down in basic for The Corps.  Every Marine spends plenty of time at the KD range using irons and learning the fundamentals of being a rifleman.  To reiterate it for the SAM-R course might be a waste.

Warren-Hpf

So when am I going to see you at a highpower match, Pat?

Pick one that I can get to and I'll be there.........

Quoted: 90% optics, 10% irons.

+1

Quoted: Warren-Hpf So when am I going to see you at a highpower match, Pat? Pick one that I can get to and I'll be there.........

I go as far north as Green Bay (Nicolet Rifle Club), so I guess I'll see you in may or june.  Leave the SAPI plates at home!

IPSC=Aimpoint
DCM=Irons
Paper Punching=Magnified Glass

Bill

Quoted: Irons are irons.  They all work the same.

Only if you run a post in that front sight rather than an aperture.

Quoted: 9050% optics, 10% irons and 40% bumpfiring from da hip.

fixed it for ya  

Quoted: Quoted: Irons are irons.  They all work the same. Only if you run a post in that front sight rather than an aperture.

I think we can all agree that match rifle sights with a lens and aperture in the front is different than a rack grade A2 with a fat front post and a canted rear sight.  But while there is a broad spectrum of irons, the basic usage and discipline required to shoot the shot is the same.  There is no magic equipment, no zen; if you stick with the fundamentals and discipline, you will make a good rifleman.  This is why you can say, and examples have been posted, that you can shoot groups with irons on par with those shot with optics.  When you're completely focused, and have the self discipline to shoot the right shot, the sight system does not make any difference.  You will be shooting at the performance level of the rifle and ammunition.  I am speaking of best case scenario, of course.

This does not apply to quickly laying volumes of fire sem-accurate fire, or the single round sniper shot.  These are specialized situations that require specialized equipment.  A red dot type sight is faster, but lacks consistency.  A magnified optic allows precisions, as well as target identification and the ability to gather intelligence.  These should be readily apparent differences.

My previous statements are speaking to the general terms of the fundamentals of marksmanship and being a rifleman.  This is the starting point; with irons marksmanship skill (or lack of) become readily apparent.  That isn't about getting a particular job done.

Quoted: Quoted: Irons are irons.  They all work the same. Only if you run a post in that front sight rather than an aperture.

Not only is warren-hpf correct, but the other point you missed is that regardless of the type of front aiming mark (post or aperture) all iron sights fundamentally STILL work the same.  Center the front sight in the rear sight, place the front sight on the desired spot on the target, and focus HARD on the front sight.

Besides, I'm pretty sure CWO3 Dennis DeMille, USMC (Ret) (the guy in the pic) can whoop most here with a rack grade A2, regardless of the optics others might use.

SWO_daddy - "fundamentally the SAME" and "the same" are different WRT AR/M14 sights and Palma-style sights.  (Yes, I've shot both in the crucible of competition. HA! HA!)  They are weasel words.  Are you a lawyer, too?  

Apertures work on black round targets due to the affinity of the human eye to discern concentric circles.  You have to work against that tendency to center the tip of the front sight vertically and horizontally in the rear sight aperture and the hold at six o'clock.  Not the "same".

You mean that picture wasn't you?  I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked.

When I was younger I favored irons , but once I hit 40
things started to get fuzzy up close . So I started to
use optics more often .

As it stands now , I'm still pretty good out to about 75 M
with Irons and opens , but beyond that I need something
other then the front sight to fix on the target , preferably
magnified .

Yeah it sucks getting old .