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Posted: 12/23/2005 10:06:18 PM EDT
For some odd reason my Rifle short cycles when I shoot wolf rounds. It did it lord knows how many times today. So I started shooting other loads (black hills, q3131, & q3131a) and had no short cycles or over rides with the bolt at all. So I'm kind of puzzled if maybe I had a bad lot of wolf?

Any opinions would be greatful

Wesley
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:11:10 PM EDT
since it's new, maybe the parts just needs to be broken in/ loosen up.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:14:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:
since it's new, maybe the parts just needs to be broken in/ loosen up.



That's what I am thinking. I shot Wolf right off the bat fine, but your rifle might need to loosen up a bit (specifically the buffer spring) so you can shoot the lower powered Wolf.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:15:48 PM EDT
shoot some standard power ammo to break things in.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:16:39 PM EDT
Break it in and ensure reliability with full-power quality ammo first. Once you've broken it in and you know it's reliable, experiment with Wolf in the rifle.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:37:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 10:38:42 PM EDT by StealthyBlagga]
Wolf .223 ammo is shit... none of the rifles I've owned have ever shot it reliably, yet are all flawless with brass cased ammo. I've shot in countless 3-gun matches too, and can say that just about every shooter I've seen using Wolf has also had problems. Oh, and Wolf accuracy sucks. Oh, and it stinks.

I'm not sure I even believe people who say "I've shot XXX thousand rounds of Wolf .223 with no issues". I wonder how many really have had problems, but the low price confers a selective memory.

Life is too short for crap ammo. Do what I do - find a cheap and reliable supply of bulk brass-cased ammo and forget about Wolf.

OK, now wait for all the Wolf zealots to chime in...
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:42:31 PM EDT
I am far from a Zealot, but I shoot Wolf. I am a cop in a small town who must pay for all of y training out of my own pocket. Wolf just makes sense, as does the cheap Monarch from Academy. Is it my favorite? Hell no, but it works. Anyhting that can get me maximum trigger time for minimal cost is A-OK in my book.

When I mkae 10.60 an hour, its hard to justify 175.00/case for decent brass, when 110.00/case works just as well. Maybe Im weird.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:47:19 PM EDT
While not a "Wolf Zealot" I do shoot it alot in certian AR's.

I have a Colt that refuses to digest it, along with an Olympic.

However,my bushmasters and DPMS just love the stuff.

Often the problem can be found elsewhere on the rifle. The DPMS rifle was finiky at first because i had an A2 stock screw on an A1 stock! It damn near took me 6 months to figure that one out.

Personally, I think a rifle SHOULD be able to work with wolf as a minimum\standard of quality. But that is just me.

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:49:07 PM EDT
Friends don't let friend shoot Wolf
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:49:25 PM EDT
I for one am happy to shoot Wolf.
If I'm just romping around at the range, why not?
For more serious work, I grab something applicable.

Even if I hated Wolf, I'd still make sure my rifle would function with it.
I would be concerned if my rifle had trouble feeding any type of ammo.
('cause ya' never know!!)

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 10:52:15 PM EDT
Wolf is fairly anemic compared to full power military ammo..... depending the configuration of your weapon this could make a difference.

I'm not a Wolf fan either, but I can't justify costing %75-%100 more for blasting ammo. It's not defensive ammo, and it's definatly not match grade, but it is suitable for training purposes. If you can afford to shoot your defense ammo, all the power to you
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:14:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By patrol120:
I am far from a Zealot, but I shoot Wolf. I am a cop in a small town who must pay for all of y training out of my own pocket. Wolf just makes sense, as does the cheap Monarch from Academy. Is it my favorite? Hell no, but it works. Anyhting that can get me maximum trigger time for minimal cost is A-OK in my book.

When I mkae 10.60 an hour, its hard to justify 175.00/case for decent brass, when 110.00/case works just as well. Maybe Im weird.


The weird thing is that you are alledgedly a cop that only makes $10.60 an hour! WTF?
Security guards, hired through temp agencys make about $12 an hour here! And we're pretty fucking poverty stricken here!
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:23:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Real_estate_salesman:

Originally Posted By patrol120:
I am far from a Zealot, but I shoot Wolf. I am a cop in a small town who must pay for all of y training out of my own pocket. Wolf just makes sense, as does the cheap Monarch from Academy. Is it my favorite? Hell no, but it works. Anyhting that can get me maximum trigger time for minimal cost is A-OK in my book.

When I mkae 10.60 an hour, its hard to justify 175.00/case for decent brass, when 110.00/case works just as well. Maybe Im weird.


The weird thing is that you are alledgedly a cop that only makes $10.60 an hour! WTF?
Security guards, hired through temp agencys make about $12 an hour here! And we're pretty fucking poverty stricken here!



Small town cops are lucky to get more than a slab of beef once a month for pay.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:27:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Real_estate_salesman:

Originally Posted By patrol120:
I am far from a Zealot, but I shoot Wolf. I am a cop in a small town who must pay for all of y training out of my own pocket. Wolf just makes sense, as does the cheap Monarch from Academy. Is it my favorite? Hell no, but it works. Anyhting that can get me maximum trigger time for minimal cost is A-OK in my book.

When I mkae 10.60 an hour, its hard to justify 175.00/case for decent brass, when 110.00/case works just as well. Maybe Im weird.


The weird thing is that you are alledgedly a cop that only makes $10.60 an hour!hired

We don't make that much money... I am around $10/hr after I pay taxes and mandatory retirement contribution.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:39:24 PM EDT
Small town LEOs are poor people.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 12:24:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 12:27:31 AM EDT by Kodiak-AK]

Originally Posted By patrol120:
I am far from a Zealot, but I shoot Wolf. I am a cop in a small town who must pay for all of y training out of my own pocket. Wolf just makes sense, as does the cheap Monarch from Academy. Is it my favorite? Hell no, but it works. Anyhting that can get me maximum trigger time for minimal cost is A-OK in my book.

When I mkae 10.60 an hour, its hard to justify 175.00/case for decent brass, when 110.00/case works just as well. Maybe Im weird.

You have got to be shitting me . I make $.60 an hour less than a cop and no one ever shoots at me .


ETA and our small town cops start at $18.50 an hour min.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 12:31:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 12:32:39 AM EDT by sledhead907]

Wolf .223 ammo is shit... none of the rifles I've owned have ever shot it reliably, yet are all flawless with brass cased ammo.


I've shot a substancial amount of Wolf ammo....with NO problems from my two Bushmaster's...perhaps it's YOUR gun(s). I would absolutely NOT want to own a gun that wouldn't shoot it. A gun that doesn't shoot Wolf ammo is just at fault as the ammo it's self.

Funny thing...it also works awesome in the Glock, and the P99...


Run the gun with full power stuff and break it in...than try it.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 12:53:25 AM EDT
I know PDs where the pay is less than $10/hr.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 1:01:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 1:02:03 AM EDT by Mr45auto]
Sadly there are many PDs that dont pay well. I do pretty well at a major county Jail, passed up a full time appointment to a small PD because of the pay difference. Big county jail system paid another $600/mo to start.


On the topic of Wolf, I had a Colt 20" Hbar that quit reliably cycling with Wolf but ate everything else fine. I replaced the gas rings and cleaned the crap out of the carrier to no avail. I suspect it may have been the gas tube wearing out a bit and not sealing well enough. All my other ARs eat if fine but it definitely is a lower powered ammo. Maybe after the switch to the polymer cases they downloaded it a bit more?
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 1:07:24 AM EDT
I too would be worried if my AR could not fire/cycle ANY type of .223/5.56 ammo. I would want my rifle to be able to fire even the crappiest ammo. Oh and I shoot Wolf exclusively. I make $16.48 an hour but I am still a poor man.

Hell, if it was not for OT and a Christmas bonus there would have been no Ho Ho Ho in my house.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 1:19:00 AM EDT
My RRA ate up a case of Wolf as its very first ammunition - it was the new polymer stuff.

While I know it's not an AK, I'd still like it to shoot whatever ammo (except Olympic) I can throw at it, especially if it's been cleaned!
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 1:20:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wjwill:
For some odd reason my Rifle short cycles when I shoot wolf rounds. It did it lord knows how many times today. So I started shooting other loads (black hills, q3131, & q3131a) and had no short cycles or over rides with the bolt at all. So I'm kind of puzzled if maybe I had a bad lot of wolf?

Any opinions would be greatful

Wesley



Wolf is basically an underpowered round. So you're not getting enough gas coming back. The other loads are at full .223 power or above and thus provide the right amount of gas.

Well documented issue. In the Oregon forum we have a brand new Bushmaster Carbon-15 that short-strokes only on Wolf. The guy's Bushmaster bullpup with two to three-shot burst Wolf due to soft primers and the action just barely short stroking. Enough to strip a round, but not enough to reset the hammer into the disconnector.

Now, you can fix this by using the "hot loaded" ammo for "break-in". Essentially you're wearing the bolt, etc. parts to be a bit less friction. You're also eroding/enlarging the gas port and giving the rifle more gas. This may help. Or you can enlarge the gas port yourself. Or you can forget about Wolf and shoot everything else BUT Wolf.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:39:58 AM EDT
I'm not a zealot either, but if Wolf works in your weapon, why not use it for "recreational" use. My rifle and carbine love Win3131A and M193, but if all I'm doing is punching paper or ringing steel, I'll save the "good" stuff for something special.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 4:57:39 AM EDT
I shoot Wolf and Barnhaul all the time. I have an old EA carbine with a lightweight buffer and an underweight semi-auto carrier. The barrel is a RRA chrome lined lightweight. No big deal, it just doesn't need much ooompf to run it. At 75Meters how much accuracy do you need to hit a clay pigeon on the ground? Maybe the gas prot is a little oversize?

It just works, filthy but it works.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:11:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 5:18:22 AM EDT by mongo001]
The ONLY thing Wolf has going for it is price. Why else would anybody defend an underpowered, inaccurate, dirty and stinky round.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:36:23 AM EDT
So what brand of AR were you shooting wjwill?

..just curious...
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:22:24 AM EDT
Dumb question , i know i'm a newbie on the forums but............

Why's it matter what other people shoot? You're not sharing thier ammo , nor putting it in your rifle ,so whys it matter if someone else shoots wolf , q3131 , BH , or such?

I know i refuse to shoot wolf , but don't give a crap about someone else shooting it. I just don't pick up thier brass after they're done for reloads :D
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:30:42 AM EDT
One of my M4geries will shoot it. The other short cycles with it. Both will work fine with WWB and my reloads.
I said screw it and don't mess with it.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:36:26 AM EDT
I was doing some work the other day with CBP and they start those guys at GS5 -- If you can make a sandwhich you can beat GS5 pay!

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:47:35 AM EDT
i never had a problem with wolf.


but i do agree letting your rifle break in before actually deciding wolf isnt good.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 6:53:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:43:54 AM EDT
i doint know guys there is just something i have about puting steel case ammo through my AR. i dont mind wolf in my old M1 Carbine, or the SKS and AK. but for cheap ammo in my AR i would just shoot Remington UMC
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:49:42 AM EDT
I have found that if I have problems with Wolf in a Nato chamber, I have problems with other brass cased ammo too, even if its to a lesser degree. To me the price is the main thing going for it, for the money its reasonably reliable. Kind of the Geo Metro of ammo.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:07:54 AM EDT
I have no problems with using Wolf. The Mforgery runs fine on it. As for it being inaccurate, well, there's accuracy and then there's accuracy. If you mean sub 1/2MOA, that ain't Wolf, nor many other types. Different rifles of the same brand, caliber, make etc, can have ammo preferences. That's just a function of manufacturing tolerances. Out of the Mforgery, Wolf shoots into 2moa with irons, old guy eyes and a fat front post. With better eyes or a scope and a thinner front post, match grade trigger, that would likely tighten up a bit.

As for reliability, I have never had a jam or malfunction with Wolf that was ammo caused. The one time my 1911 failed was due to the plunger tube coming off in the middle of a match. Bear in mind also that this gun has had upwards of 50k put through it with no other issues, it was about time something let go and it would have happened with WWB, reloads or Wolf. I shoot with guys in 3 gun matches who shoot nothing but Wolf. No problems for them and they shoot literally thousands, yes, thousands of rounds per year in matches and practice.

Steel case ammo a problem? Not unless they are using chromoly with a hardness of 80RockwellC. Steel can range from dead soft to harder than chicken lips. The stuff used in ammo is soft so that the case will expand under pressure and seal the chamber. Basic Firearms 101, brass cases do the same. So why should there be an issue with brass v steel when the two have similar working properties in this respect. The issue of brass v steel is one that comes into play when reloading, namely work hardening of the steel. IF you aren't reloading them, it simply isn't an issue. As for breaking extractors, I'd about bet it was more due to dropping the slide on a chambered round repeatedly over time that caused it.

Most likely the problems you're experiencing are directly attributable to two things-

1) new gun that needs to be "shot in" That is the machined surfaces need to be worn into each other. Car engines are the same way. You'll bet better gas mileage after a couple thousand miles of break in. Guns are pretty much the same.

2) Wolf has been documented to be a lower pressure round. They are ostensibly changing that. If you are shooting a new gun with short barrel, Wolf might not be making enough pressure to reliably cycle the action.

So, you can shoot Wolf if it cycles your gun, it won't hurt it. If it doesn't cycle after you've shot a few hundred rounds, then you may just have to move over to a higher powered ammo. Personally, for the amount I shoot in 3 gun matches per year, the cost of Wolf v milsurp and reloads is pretty attractive and I don't have to worry about policing up my spent casings. And if you think a serious 3 gun competitor doesn't shoot much, well if you shoot just 3 big matchs per year and 3 club matchs, there's about 800 rounds right there in just the match ammo. Now factor in practice and testing, and a serious 3 gun shooter will likely shoot more ammo in one year than many will in ten years. And that doesn't even get into the shotgun side of things.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:19:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wjwill:
For some odd reason my Rifle short cycles when I shoot wolf rounds. It did it lord knows how many times today. So I started shooting other loads (black hills, q3131, & q3131a) and had no short cycles or over rides with the bolt at all. So I'm kind of puzzled if maybe I had a bad lot of wolf?

Any opinions would be greatful

Wesley

My AK(clone) just plain won't eat that crap ammo..
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:37:57 AM EDT
A friend just bought a case of Wolf and it jammed every shot in a SP-101. He had just been issued the rifle. He oiled the bolt and it cycled every time.

I ran 5k through my Glock 34 last summer, it's good enough.

My weapons need to be able to shoot the low end stuff, I think it's a sign of reliablility.

I think guns are cheap, it's the ammo that gets expensive, but I don't own many safe queens.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:41:30 AM EDT

The ONLY thing Wolf has going for it is price. Why else would anybody defend an underpowered, inaccurate, dirty and stinky round.


That's right! But that's all you need when all you're going to do is go shoot tiolets or busted up old cars!
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:44:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga:
Wolf .223 ammo is shit... none of the rifles I've owned have ever shot it reliably, yet are all flawless with brass cased ammo. I've shot in countless 3-gun matches too, and can say that just about every shooter I've seen using Wolf has also had problems. Oh, and Wolf accuracy sucks. Oh, and it stinks.

I'm not sure I even believe people who say "I've shot XXX thousand rounds of Wolf .223 with no issues". I wonder how many really have had problems, but the low price confers a selective memory.

Life is too short for crap ammo. Do what I do - find a cheap and reliable supply of bulk brass-cased ammo and forget about Wolf.

OK, now wait for all the Wolf zealots to chime in...





Want to meet up and shoot a bunch of Wolf through an AR that's not broken?
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:48:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By patrol120:
I am far from a Zealot, but I shoot Wolf. I am a cop in a small town who must pay for all of y training out of my own pocket. Wolf just makes sense, as does the cheap Monarch from Academy. Is it my favorite? Hell no, but it works. Anyhting that can get me maximum trigger time for minimal cost is A-OK in my book..



.22LR conversion kit and lots of dry fire practise will help your sight alignments, presentations, and trigger control follow through. To work on shot recovery, split times, and holdover/under you need to train with your duty ammo or another load that has the same recoil impulse, muzzle blast, flash, and point of impact.

Shooting wolf ammo for training is like throwing rocks down range while shouting bang, bang, bang. It might be fun, but it's not training.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:52:16 AM EDT

same recoil impulse, muzzle blast, flash, and point of impact.


So because those things are different all training value is gone? Give me a break! That's the worst excuse I've ever heard to not use wolf. If that's all the man can afford it's better than nothing.

POI can be adjusted obviously by sighting it with different ammo
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:10:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:10:41 AM EDT
good rifle,,,
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:16:04 AM EDT
I shoot wolf in my MAC-10, AC556 and Mod 614.

No problems, 100% reliability.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:17:35 AM EDT
If you've got a five dollar head wear a five dollar helmet, if you've got a ten cent rifle shoot ten cent ammo. Wolf Sucks!
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:18:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JeffCsr:
So what brand of AR were you shooting wjwill?

..just curious...



Bushmaster 24" match

I just went shooting with a couple of friends. One has a DPMS Artic 16" and the other has a RRA M4. Both of thier rifles short cycled of the same wolf ammo that I purchased yesterday.

The only thing we can come up with is that the lot must be bad because we tried shooting out of various boxes and still the same thing. with all 3 rifles.

Lot# P266-05

Thank all of you for your input.

Wesley
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:20:12 AM EDT

I shoot wolf all the time without one problem. My STD A4 RRA just loves to shoot wolf ammo. Why spend the $$$ on XM193 or Q3131(a) if all you're doing is hitting a piece of paper or some water jug. Really.... The only way I'd spend the $$$ on ammo is if I had a NM AR-15 and I was in compititions every weekend. For plinking, you can't go wrong with wolf ammo....

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:32:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By robertl:
If you've got a five dollar head wear a five dollar helmet, if you've got a ten cent rifle shoot ten cent ammo. Wolf Sucks!




The problem is that I have seen blowups with all kinds of ammo: PMC blew up two of my friends guns in one outing. Winchester Q3131- seen pics, Lake City- missing primers.

Give me a break. Shoot the cheap stuff as long as you have recourse.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:59:13 AM EDT
Wolf is good for blasting, however you have to inspect it overall. I find in many lots at least a few with cracked case mouths, dented casings etc. The newer polymer coated stuff works better but overall I would use some higher pressure for break in then Wolf for blasting. I just can't stand paying as much for brass cased 5.56NATO as I do for Hert or Port 7.62NATO. Stupid really, recently decided to perhaps invest into a .308 AR and have the best of both worlds.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:08:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Creeper:
Wolf is good for blasting, however you have to inspect it overall. I find in many lots at least a few with cracked case mouths, dented casings etc. The newer polymer coated stuff works better but overall I would use some higher pressure for break in then Wolf for blasting. I just can't stand paying as much for brass cased 5.56NATO as I do for Hert or Port 7.62NATO. Stupid really, recently decided to perhaps invest into a .308 AR and have the best of both worlds.



All I shoot out of my M4 bushy and my DPMS sweet sixteen are q3131 round. Bofore I tried shooting the wolf in my match rifle, I put 300 rounds of q3131a with no problems. Then I go to shoot wolf and what do you know, it jams up. So I shoot a 20rd mag of black hills, no problems. Then I try 2 10rd mags, one with q3131 and the other with q3131a and no problems. So i go back to try wolf and the same damn thing happens again.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:58:20 AM EDT
I like wolf for plinking, and making noise. Works well in my bushy ar, imbel fn fal, ak, mini 14, and my 1927 A1 Shoot some hotter ammo to break your gun in, then try again.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 11:46:42 AM EDT

The ONLY thing Wolf has going for it is price. Why else would anybody defend an underpowered, inaccurate, dirty and stinky round.



That's enough for me. It's accurate enough , No dirt on the Wolf i boughth Cycles like a champ in my RRA A2
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