Quoted: Hey VA Dinger- do you have an HK416? Did you get one from Pritchard before HK came and tried to take them back?

No, I do not own one. I had the opportunity to handle and shoot one at a class last summer. I have also had the privilege to have the system explained to me in great detail several times by a man closely related to the project.

I did try to buy one from Pritchard, but I was too late. I was on vacation when they became available.

Those uppers have been deemed perfectly legal to own by the way.

What is the latest on that debacle?

How many people gave them up?

This is the G36 gas system.  It is essentially the same as the 416.  You can see how it self regulates.  The gas impinges on the angled face of the piston, when the piston has enough gusto for the plug to clear the forward hole the excess gas vents out the front of the gas block.

Quoted:
HK has every reason to hate the DoD and American citizens.

I'd have to disagrre with you on that one; HK [and SIG, for that matter] just won a landmark contract for millions to supply DHS with pistols.

I swear, piston-maker discussions have been started more ARFcom firefights than all other topics combined!!


Well, sans the Colt v. Bushmaster flamefests.


Great stuff.

I would like to have an HK 416 if they were ever sold........sadly, I dont think us civvies will get that option. Anyone think HK might sell to us again someday?

Quoted: If you need another example of crookery in govt contracts, call Alex Robinson and ask him about his XCR and the SCAR program. If gas piston uppers are ever adopted widely, its possible, it will be Colt's SCAR design....

I'm sorry to break topic, I just had to comment about this.

RobArm was DQ'd for not having a BFA. RobArm is the only body to claim this thus far, so we'll take their word for it.

Now, if the XCR was so great and ready to fill SCAR contracts, why is it that for so long after the trials, RobArm had to put so much more research and development into the XCR. You would think if they were ready to deliver pre production units to SOCOM, they wouldn't be currently scrounging to find new parts due to a lack of quality in outsourced materials.

Don't take my skepticism as an insult, but I have yet to see complaints of unfairness from anyone involved in the SCAR trials, aside from RobArms, who is still having enough problems with the XCR that production has been delayed multiple times due to a lack of quality in outsourced parts.

I'm sure the XCR will be great, but there is no evidence that the XCR is, or was, capable of outperforming the FN entry.

As for the HK416 against the LW, and the XCR against FN SCAR, I view them in the same light. Until they are both readily available for back to back comparison under the same circumstances, no one can really insinuate which one is a better performer. (We'll pretend the SOCOM trials never really happened.)

Quoted: Quoted: But it seems from your posts I dont need to be the one spending the money.  I will await delivery of my free HK upper so I can show you my skill with it at your shoot Dinger... consider it a standing offer. You lost me. Seriously, I will pay 1/2 your fee this spring just for the opportunity to see such skills in action. Just contact me and we will get the ball rolling.

Can I take you up on this offer

I dont have any skills, but... If you'll pay half my fee, it'll save me some more cash to put towards other things

Weren't there a number of HK uppers out there a couple months ago selling for $2300 each?

Are they really THAT much better?

WIZZO

There will always be a  HK LOVE HATE RELATIONSHIP on Ar15.com.  Even if HK were to sell complete 416 rifles to the US public there would still be the same mamber that would still say such intelligent things as

"Fuck HK"
"Fuck the Germans"
"Over hype piece of shit"
"Fuckin' XM8 looks like a fish"
"Eurotrash"
"Nazi guns"
"Marketing Nazis"
"HK SUCKS"


And other moronic sayings from guys that only dislike HKs because they can not afford them.

I really enjoy HK rifles and handguns. I think HK is a great company that has built some fine weapons over the past 50 plus years. HK and FN are the only firearm company around today that builds and designs new handguns, SMGs Machineguns, rifles, shotguns and grenade launchers.

If HK sold the 416 to the public or at least the upper I would buy a few of them. I would also buy a few HK 417 .308 rifles.

My Ar15s are just fine right now with the gas system. But now that I bought a AAC M4-2000 the ARs get dirty real quick. So a 416 upper would be great to run with a suppressor. Plus, if I ever get a RR M16 a 416 upper would be nice for full auto fun.

HK makes some great firearms and it is too bad that we can not own them here. But I understand that HK has been kicked around by U.S. politics for so many years that they have no interest in U.S. Sales.

Chris

Quoted: Weren't there a number of HK uppers out there a couple months ago selling for $2300 each? Are they really THAT much better? WIZZO

Are HK 416 uppers worth $2,300???? Well no, but if there are only a few imported in the U.S. they could be worth much more as a collector item. Plus if HK were to sell just the uppers, the new BATF barrel ban might stop them from selling the upper here even if HK wanted to.

Quoted: There will always be a  HK LOVE HATE RELATIONSHIP on Ar15.com.  Even if HK were to sell complete 416 rifles to the US public there would still be the same mamber that would still say such intelligent things as Chris

With respect, there are always two sides to the coin, especially under the circumstances of HK.

Look at the pro XM8 discussions that many HK fans participated in. I remember my first visit to HKPro where I witnessed a topic about the XM8 being so much better than the M16 and how it was destined to become the rifle all others were judged by.

Now that time has passed, and the XM8 has proven itself an utter failure.

Also note in the G36 page on HKPro, says exactly this.

"The G36 is a reliable rifle, much more so than the M16 series.  Though hard core M16 and AR-15 aficionados will have a difficult time accepting what they might describe derisively as 'Euro-Trash."

I take that as an obvious insult to the AR15/M16 platform, and they also failed to mention the well known trunion problems apparent in the G36 under high cyclic rates of fire.

I love both HK's and AR15's as well as about any other good firearm ever made. What I really hate is the attitude some firearm owners gain in thinking that one product is inferior or superior based on their opinionative preferences.

The high cost of HK products for me over the years has been more a product of US politics than anything else.  If they become available, I'll buy one.   God knows I've spent a lot of money on AR's over the last thirty two years.

I use suppressors on anything that I can (ha, ha).  It would be nice not having the inside of the receiver look like a sewer after every use.  Do I clean the sewer out?  Yes, but there are other things I would rather do with my time.

Weight is a significant factor, even for a super fit young soldier.  I was one long ago.  I know from experience that I could walk twice as far in a day carying a Swedish K or a CAR than I ever could humping a BAR or that &*%^$#@%* M-60.

It sounds like the 416 has good and bad features, pretty much like every other weapon I have ever used.  

Brand loyalty and strong opinions are fine and good, but becoming overly emotional about a tool or a toy is somewhat unmanly.  That is all these guns are for us on a daily basis.  We use them as tools in our job and/or toys in our leisure time.  (If we are using them for self defense, then they are in the tool category at that moment.)

Well, I better get back to work so I can earn some money to buy one of these toys if it becomes available at an attractive price.

lawndart

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But it seems from your posts I dont need to be the one spending the money.  I will await delivery of my free HK upper so I can show you my skill with it at your shoot Dinger... consider it a standing offer. You lost me. Seriously, I will pay 1/2 your fee this spring just for the opportunity to see such skills in action. Just contact me and we will get the ball rolling. Can I take you up on this offer I dont have any skills, but... If you'll pay half my fee, it'll save me some more cash to put towards other things

No kidding I want in on this.

I tell you HK sucks! I never could get a comfortable cheekweld with an HK with ANY optic. I can notice a difference in .001" of rail height, and if my rails are too high, or too low, by just that amount my groups go from .6" at 600 yards to
.7125" at 600 yards. Pay half of my fee for a carbine class this spring and I'll show you!

Quoted: HK has every reason to hate the DoD and American citizens. With the exception of the Mk23, MP5, MSG90, HK33 and maybe one that I am forgetting are the only HK weapons the US has ever used, and these weapons aren't procured in the volume that a standard issued weapon would be. With the exception of the aformentioned small success stories, the majority of thier weapons have failed miserably when up for govt contracts. The HK 23 comes to mind during the SAW trials. T&E

Nice paste job. What article did you get this from?


- rem

FN hates civilians so much that they actually have a department that works with video game development companies to allow them to personally handle, fire and work with their weapons (even the new SCAR-L and SCAR-H) so they can accurately model and represent them in the video games.

See Battlefield 2: Special Forces expansion pack for example. It features the SCAR-L and SCAR-H which are beautifully rendered and from what I can tell sound and recoil like the real thing. They even feature a red dot sight that is very realistic, and raised higher than other platforms. Pretty cool really.

- rem

Quoted: Quoted: HK has every reason to hate the DoD and American citizens. With the exception of the Mk23, MP5, MSG90, HK33 and maybe one that I am forgetting are the only HK weapons the US has ever used, and these weapons aren't procured in the volume that a standard issued weapon would be. With the exception of the aformentioned small success stories, the majority of thier weapons have failed miserably when up for govt contracts. The HK 23 comes to mind during the SAW trials. T&E Nice paste job. What article did you get this from? - rem

I don't know. He spelled "their" wrong.



WIZZO

In my rant, I think I may have portrayed that the XCR had the technical merit to be a contender in the SCAR program. I think its garbage, which explains why it has yet to make it to the civilian market. Colt also alleged unfair treatment when thier weapon wasn't selected and they filed suit. Supposidly, the Colt gas piston M4 was the best weapon there...This is just example of allegations made about corruption and bias surrounding military contracts. While both Sig and HK won

contracts for the Department of Homeland Security, these are small contracts when compared with the contract they would receive if they were to provide the DoD with the replacement for the M9 or M16...The DHS isn't military per-se and isn't subject to the same testing and evaluations as military weapons are, so its much easier to get a contract with a LE agency. Sig and HK has enjoyed success in the LE market, which isn't as infested with bias, secret deals and corrumption.
Its much easier to get a contract for a few thousand pistols than a million rifles and components.
Sig and HK were both able to secure contracts with the DOD for the Mk23 and 226&228

respectively, though on numbers much smaller than Beretta acheived with the M9. Sadly, the best weapon isn't always in the hands of our troops. There is much more than performance that goes into the selection of a weapon. The M16 is likely the best assault rifle in the world but was challenged by the M14 not because of virtue, but the politics and connections of the Springfield Armory. T&E weapons were altered/vadalized per Eugene Stoner's account to the Smithsonian Institute. Testing was also slanted in favor of the M14 in order to freeze out the FAL. Its not in any companies interest, especially an American company, to lose out on a multi million dollar contract and they can and do exercise connections and advantages to win.
The foreign companies don't have the advantage that some domestic manufactures enjoy.

I didn't cut and paste from any article....I couldn't tell if this sarcasm or not? If it is, fuck you.
If not, the 12th edition of Small Arms of the World goes into detail on the testing and evaluation results and information on the weapons. The JSSAP report goes into detail on the candiates to replace the 1911, which is still the subject of great discrepency. If you do a little research you can read about the SOCOM contract for the initial 300? IIRC SR25's, the MSG90 and the current SASR or SAM-R program. While its not been proven in court, yet, govt corruption is a part of life for military contractors.Money is a powerful thing, the people who have it want to keep it. Granted its in our interest to keep govt money in the hands of American companies, but our troops should have the best weapon, no matter who makes it or where. I also would hope that

federal and state laws as well as business ethics, if there such a thing, are upheld in any govt awarded contract. No one likes to lose, but the allegations of misconduct surrounding the selection of small arms is a frequent complaint and shouldn't be dismissed. I guess my point is that Sig and HK make excellent weapons and if "life was fair" I believe we would see many more HK and Sig weapons in the hands of our troops. I just think its strange that weapons that best the competiton according to the T&E reports aren't adopted because we gave the contract to the runner up. Bids are usually confidential. but an extra 1.00 in the case of the Beretta is money well spent. You can't buy a new soldier for a dollar nor can you give the SEAL back his eye the broken Beretta slide took from him. Sorry for SP errors, Wizzo

The reason why I asked where you pasted it from was because of the carriage returns in strange places, not at the end of a paragraph but in the middle of a sentence, just like above. Typical problem of cut/paste into a WYSIWYG editor like this one.


- rem

Didn't mean to start such a shitstorm. I have  Bushmaster AND Colt Ar's. I didn't want to get everyone so fired up over German vs American or DI vs gas piston or one brand over another. That being said, if HK sold rifles again to the common folk, I'd probably buy one. If LW had a commonly available gas piston AR without having to wait a year, I'd probably get one of those too.


There is no cure for BRD, and it gets worse with age.

Quoted: Colt also alleged unfair treatment when thier weapon wasn't selected and they filed suit. Supposidly, the Colt gas piston M4 was the best weapon there...This is just example of allegations made about corruption and bias surrounding military contracts.

Reguardless of it's performance, the Colt lacked a very large number of features that SOCOM was specifically looking for. It lacked the one piece upper feature, did not have a quick barrel change feature, it kept the protruding buffer tube, and they did not have a heavy (7.62 NATO) version which pretty much eliminated them from the competition right off the bat.

Colt did not stand a chance, in that they failed to comprehend the requirements that SOCOM was looking for. I have not heard that the Colt out performed the FN entrant, but I'll take your word for it.

I have heard the SIG entries far exceeded the weight limit, and were penalized for it. They as well, lacked many of the features SOCOM specifically asked for.

If you look at the desired requirements SOCOM was looking for, the only ones who actually seemed to pay attention were FN and Robinson Armament. The rest were rough examples of what could be done to an existing platform, while FN offered a completely new firearm that showed the best potential.

If you compare the requirements against what was brought, FN's victory seems clearly fair. FN brought a new system and their A game, while the rest (aside from RobArm) brought recycled versions of their current offerings.

Quoted: Reguardless of it's performance, the Colt lacked a very large number of features that SOCOM was specifically looking for. It lacked the one piece upper feature, did not have a quick barrel change feature, it kept the protruding buffer tube, and they did not have a heavy (7.62 NATO) version which pretty much eliminated them from the competition right off the bat. Colt did not stand a chance, in that they failed to comprehend the requirements that SOCOM was looking for. I have not heard that the Colt out performed the FN entrant, but I'll take your word for it.

Have you read the SCAR solicitation, or even seen a photo of the Colt entry?

Quoted: Quoted: Reguardless of it's performance, the Colt lacked a very large number of features that SOCOM was specifically looking for. It lacked the one piece upper feature, did not have a quick barrel change feature, it kept the protruding buffer tube, and they did not have a heavy (7.62 NATO) version which pretty much eliminated them from the competition right off the bat. Colt did not stand a chance, in that they failed to comprehend the requirements that SOCOM was looking for. I have not heard that the Colt out performed the FN entrant, but I'll take your word for it. Have you read the SCAR solicitation, or even seen a photo of the Colt entry?

Yes, and the Colt entry was based on the M5 which lacked multiple desired features. While the solicitation did not require numerous things, many things were preferred, and the FN entrant left very little of those desires untouched.

To my knowledge, Colt DID NOT have a heavy variant of their system, and that would be my first guess as to why it did not progress, aside from the fact it had many characteristics that SOCOM was looking to get rid of.

Quoted: Sorry for SP errors, Wizzo

I was just giving you a little friendy ribbing

WIZZO

Quoted: Yes, and the Colt entry was based on the M5 which lacked multiple desired features.

The M5 was not Colt's SCAR entry, nor was it intended for that solicitation.

And back tot he topic at hand...

While the 416 is not my favorite piston upper, a lot of folks that know way more about gunfighting than myself do like it. That doesn't mean that it is without flaw, but it is indeed what they prefer.

Quoted: Quoted: Yes, and the Colt entry was based on the M5 which lacked multiple desired features. The M5 was not Colt's SCAR entry, nor was it intended for that solicitation. And back tot he topic at hand... While the 416 is not my favorite piston upper, a lot of folks that know way more about gunfighting than myself do like it. That doesn't mean that it is without flaw, but it is indeed what they prefer.

I never said the M5 was. Please take notice of the words "based on". I have heard from multiple sources that Colt's entry was an evolved version of their M5 conceptual rifle.

If you have any info or pictures that go into further detail on their SCAR entry, I would like very much to be further informed.

I aint mad atcha Wizzo.... I have a tendency to type fast and I don't double space, so I go back through and space so people can read it without getting a migraine and it looks like I cut and paste.....

I am not disputing the quality of the FN SCAR, I think its an amazing weapon. While there were certain things the Colt entry did not meet, it performed exceptionally well and it also had an advantage of being based on the M4 as opposed to an entirely new weapon. I have had the chance to be a part of T&E for numerous small arms and more times than not, the "winner" isn't selected.
Of course, there is always a reason...."So and So doesn't have the production capacity", "Too heavy"...*by half an oz.*, "Did not fulfill requirements"....*because it exceeded them* My point was only that there is much more that goes into the selection of a weapon than its actual

performance. The controversy surrounding the SCAR contest only proves this. SOCOM is better about picking the winner than the big Army or other govt entities and I truely belive they picked the best weapon with the FN entry. I don't think the XCR, Cobb*a really cool gun* or Colt should have won. I agree with Alex Robinson's objection though....I think every entry should have been given the same chance, provided that it met the requirements closely enough...and all of the

above did. Reguardless of what we think of the XCR and its virtues or problems, it did not get a fair shot in the contest. If the XCR was brought by HK or SiG I think it would have lasted a few months longer.....

I cant even begin to count how many posts about the HK416 Ive read. Yet I would bet that 99% of the people posting about it havent even been anywhere near one.

Gas piston uppers are available. How about the POS or other gas piston uppers? Anybody tried these?

Quoted: I cant even begin to count how many posts about the HK416 Ive read. Yet I would bet that 99% of the people posting about it havent even been anywhere near one. Gas piston uppers are available. How about the POS or other gas piston uppers? Anybody tried these?

POS???? I am assuming you are referring to the POF?
Yes it works and it works very well. It is one of a few designed gas piston uppers that are out there for our AR's. So far the POF and LW are the proven ones.

Quoted: Weren't there a number of HK uppers out there a couple months ago selling for $2300 each? Are they really THAT much better? WIZZO

Yes they are.

That is until (1) HK offers them to the civilian community, or (2) they make a design change that significantly changes/improves the original

(1) would take away the novelty due to rarity, and (2) would push it to obsolescence


The product is fantastic, but after seeing the poster below, I also  think the HK 416 mania is getting a bit out of hand

Quoted: Quoted: I cant even begin to count how many posts about the HK416 Ive read. Yet I would bet that 99% of the people posting about it havent even been anywhere near one. Gas piston uppers are available. How about the POS or other gas piston uppers? Anybody tried these? POS???? I am assuming you are referring to the POF? Yes it works and it works very well. It is one of a few designed gas piston uppers that are out there for our AR's. So far the POF and LW are the proven ones.

Whats the LW? got a link?

LW = Leitner Wise Rifle Co

For more info. you can start at the below attached link

Industry forum link

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yes, and the Colt entry was based on the M5 which lacked multiple desired features. The M5 was not Colt's SCAR entry, nor was it intended for that solicitation. And back tot he topic at hand... While the 416 is not my favorite piston upper, a lot of folks that know way more about gunfighting than myself do like it. That doesn't mean that it is without flaw, but it is indeed what they prefer. I never said the M5 was. Please take notice of the words "based on". I have heard from multiple sources that Colt's entry was an evolved version of their M5 conceptual rifle. If you have any info or pictures that go into further detail on their SCAR entry, I would like very much to be further informed.

Anybody got a picture of the Colt M5 and/or a link to a page with some good pics/info?

Quoted: Anybody got a picture of the Colt M5 and/or a link to a page with some good pics/info?

Just the ones that were posted here

Not much revelation through these pix though









and one more showing continuous rail



M5 Bucket Loop

I'm drinking the kool-aid. I just read another thread and a magazine article... and I'd totally want one if they started selling them.

I'm not sold on the mags I think a MagPul enhanced USGI mag is just dandy.