How come you never see a.r.m.s S.I.R here? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How come you never see a.r.m.s S.I.R here? (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 12/26/2005 8:24:41 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:
will a SIR fit a POF piston upper?

I doubt it. Look at the ring in front of the barrel nut. I bet the would cause some headaches. Not sure if all POF uppers are that way, though. The SIRS' upper rail is more concave.

Picture courtesy of SMGLee

that's not the answer i wanted to hear, damnit. but i see what what your talking about. i have not had a SIR in about 2 or 3 years and could not remember the inside of it.anyone have a pic of the inside of the SIR-C rail?

i would love to find a rail that fits the POF upper, besides the predator (to large of diameter for my liking). i hear Troy is making one and i can hardly wait.

Posted: 12/26/2005 9:47:16 PM EDT

[#2]

Here is my 16" with a SIR 45M.

I absolutely love mine and would not trade it for anything at this point.

Posted: 12/26/2005 10:09:46 PM EDT

[#3]

I love mine

Posted: 12/26/2005 10:16:41 PM EDT

[#4]

Here's my M4A1 on its second year of duty here in Iraq.

CD

Posted: 12/27/2005 8:51:22 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Here's my M4A1 on its second year of duty here in Iraq.
CD

[3rdtk]See! I told you so.

[3rdtk]

Yeah, all these pics make me regret selling all of them even more.

Posted: 12/27/2005 9:03:41 AM EDT

[#6]

I never liked the damn things from day one, and neither did quite a few well respected instructors. I had one of the original RAS forends on my first AR, and kept it around until I got a Larue and a DD.

The idea that someone got rid of a SIR just because of this website is laughable. While I'm sure there are some people that did, the fact remains that there are better systems out there now. If you want continuous (although I've never understood why), you have the MRP.

At the end of the day the SIR is old and heavy. I'm glad it came out because it led to other people innovating better ways to accomplish the same thing, but in today's market for a new buyer it's heavy, bulky, and expensive for what it does.

Posted: 12/27/2005 2:30:20 PM EDT

[#7]

There is not a single system out there that is better for my needs and wants than a SIR.

Posted: 12/27/2005 5:51:32 PM EDT

[#8]

Posted: 12/27/2005 6:33:48 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
I love mine

i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/bs101177/ARand19112.jpg

Does that picture make anyone else feel kind of sick?

Posted: 12/27/2005 7:14:04 PM EDT

[#10]

They may be old but they are still nice to look at!

Posted: 12/27/2005 7:45:00 PM EDT

[#11]

I would buy one for $200-$250 if I could find one. I personally like the SIR, I just don't like it's $350 price tag when the LaRue is $100 cheaper. Paying more for the SIR just does not make sense.

Posted: 12/27/2005 7:47:58 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
I would buy one for $200-$250 if I could find one. I personally like the SIR, I just don't like it's $350 price tag when the LaRue is $100 cheaper. Paying more for the SIR just does not make sense.

+1

Posted: 12/27/2005 9:46:22 PM EDT

[#13]

Try Malt-o-Meal or some Quaker product that will make you big and strong if you think the SIR is 'at the end of the day' too heavy to hump. Carry a one -gallon jug of water all day same end carry your wifes' packages around the mall al day same end . Its too heavy ...face reality we are prone to fatigue there is no piece of equipment that will make fatigue a non factor its why we condition ourselves ... at the end of my day I like knowing I humped around on a Harley ... because I can hack it. The weight of my SIR system is the least of my burdens at the end of my day .

Posted: 12/27/2005 10:27:27 PM EDT

[#14]

I'll play!

Posted: 12/28/2005 4:36:06 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Try Malt-o-Meal or some Quaker product that will make you big and strong if you think the SIR is 'at the end of the day' too heavy to hump. Carry a one -gallon jug of water all day same end carry your wifes' packages around the mall al day same end . Its too heavy ...face reality we are prone to fatigue there is no piece of equipment that will make fatigue a non factor its why we condition ourselves ... at the end of my day I like knowing I humped around on a Harley ... because I can hack it. The weight of my SIR system is the least of my burdens at the end of my day .

I'm curious, what line of work are you in that requires you to hump a rifle, and how long are you generally humping it?

Posted: 12/28/2005 4:52:13 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Im hanging around here quite much latly but I cant recall having seen an arms SIR of any model here latly
how come. Do you think they are yesterdays stuff and rather prefer troy or larue
I mean they have no as much attachment points for extra stuff as the usaul rail design
but I think they have enough anyway.
so how come they have seem to decreased in popularity?

Just because YOU ain't seen them, does not mean they aren't in use, (as by now you have noticed).

FWIW, Pick up any issue of SOF in the last year and you'll see them in use by our troopers over in the sandbox, as the US military believes in them and uses them, (much to shagrin of all the LaRue hawkers around here).

I own a 45C model on one of my go to M4s, the other go to M4 rifle sports a KAC RAS II set-up.

All my Aimpoints are mounted using ARMS #22M68 products (2) and all my rear BUIS are ARMS 40A2s (4).

Mike

Posted: 12/28/2005 5:45:00 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Im hanging around here quite much latly but I cant recall having seen an arms SIR of any model here latly
how come. Do you think they are yesterdays stuff and rather prefer troy or larue
I mean they have no as much attachment points for extra stuff as the usaul rail design
but I think they have enough anyway.
so how come they have seem to decreased in popularity?

FWIW, Pick up any issue of SOF in the last year and you'll see them in use by our troopers over in the sandbox, as the US military believes in them and uses them, (much to shagrin of all the LaRue hawkers around here).

Really? Can you post some pics, I have yet to see a single one in use by the military and I have seen A LOT of pictures from over there. The only one I remember seeing is SimplyDynamics. Besides that I dont ever remember a single picture with one.

Posted: 12/28/2005 6:03:46 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
I never liked the damn things from day one, and neither did quite a few well respected instructors. I had one of the original RAS forends on my first AR, and kept it around until I got a Larue and a DD.

The idea that someone got rid of a SIR just because of this website is laughable. While I'm sure there are some people that did, the fact remains that there are better systems out there now. If you want continuous (although I've never understood why), you have the MRP.

At the end of the day the SIR is old and heavy. I'm glad it came out because it led to other people innovating better ways to accomplish the same thing, but in today's market for a new buyer it's heavy, bulky, and expensive for what it does.

At the end of the day I am old and Heavy. If you can't handle the weight of difference between a SIR and the Newest sexiest rail system, then go to the gym. I loose more weight in the bathroom every morning than the difference between the "OLD" SIR and the "NEW" and improved.

Posted: 12/28/2005 6:30:11 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
At the end of the day I am old and Heavy. If you can't handle the weight of difference between a SIR and the Newest sexiest rail system, then go to the gym. I loose more weight in the bathroom every morning than the difference between the "OLD" SIR and the "NEW" and improved.

OK, this is the same old argument over and over again, and it's bullshit.

I don't care HOW strong you are, you get tired holding any amount of weight over a long period of time. That's a fact. Take a cell phone and hold it out in front of you with your arm outstretched. Eventually you're going to get tired of holding it. Now take the battery out and do the same thing. You can hold it out there longer, can't you?

This test works regardless of your strength level; you can hold something up longer if it's lighter. Again, this is a fact and applies no matter if you're some bulked-up juicer or the proverbial 98 pound weakling.

Given this, it is better to carry a lighter load than a heavier one. That is also a fact. You only carry weight that you need. In the case of the SIR, there are newer, lighter, better options available so there is no point in carrying the heavier object. If nothing else, every ounce you save on the rifle is an extra round of ammo or something that actually IS useful that you can carry.

There's also the matter of basic physics. The big fat shit you took this morning was being carried in your big fat gut, more or less directly above your legs. There was no moment force acting in this case. However the further away from your body a weight gets the more it appears to weigh. Go get your cell phone again. This time, instead of holding it straight out in front of you, hold it close in, 6" from your chest. You can hold it much longer close in than you can outrstretched, can't you?

Where do you think you're carrying the weight of a SIR if you're running a COF in competition, taking a Pat Rogers class, or clearing a building?

The argument that heavier objects don't matter if you'd just go to the gym just doesn't hold water. It's a bullshit argument and it comes up around here every time the issue of weight is mentioned. Lighter may not always be better, but in this case it damn sure is.

Posted: 12/28/2005 6:55:33 AM EDT

[#20]

The main reason the ARMS system fell out of favor is because it is out of style. There are newer, sexier fahions in style.

You will come to learn after spending more time here how much of a male fashion show ARFCom can be.

ARMS will eventually release a newer, sexier rail and it will be all the rage until the next big thing comes along.

But whatever, it's good for the economy.

Posted: 12/28/2005 6:57:40 AM EDT

[#21]

I had SIR 50 a couple of years ago.

After about a year of use I decided that it was not a good fit for my needs.

I found that the raised rail limited my mounting options with EOTech sights if I wanted to maintain the ablity to cowitness with my BUIS. I could only mount it over the barrel and it made my carbine front heavy. I didn't like the plastic lower half which never felt solid to me. I also didn't like the removable rails, when ther were installed it put accesories too far from the weapons center. Lastly I felt they were over proced compared to other rail systems that would work better for my needs.

Here's a pic of my old SIR 50 setup.

Posted: 12/28/2005 7:31:07 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
At the end of the day I am old and Heavy. If you can't handle the weight of difference between a SIR and the Newest sexiest rail system, then go to the gym. I loose more weight in the bathroom every morning than the difference between the "OLD" SIR and the "NEW" and improved.

OK, this is the same old argument over and over again, and it's bullshit.

I don't care HOW strong you are, you get tired holding any amount of weight over a long period of time. That's a fact. Take a cell phone and hold it out in front of you with your arm outstretched. Eventually you're going to get tired of holding it. Now take the battery out and do the same thing. You can hold it out there longer, can't you?

This test works regardless of your strength level; you can hold something up longer if it's lighter. Again, this is a fact and applies no matter if you're some bulked-up juicer or the proverbial 98 pound weakling.

Given this, it is better to carry a lighter load than a heavier one. That is also a fact. You only carry weight that you need. In the case of the SIR, there are newer, lighter, better options available so there is no point in carrying the heavier object. If nothing else, every ounce you save on the rifle is an extra round of ammo or something that actually IS useful that you can carry.

There's also the matter of basic physics. The big fat shit you took this morning was being carried in your big fat gut, more or less directly above your legs. There was no moment force acting in this case. However the further away from your body a weight gets the more it appears to weigh. Go get your cell phone again. This time, instead of holding it straight out in front of you, hold it close in, 6" from your chest. You can hold it much longer close in than you can outrstretched, can't you?

Where do you think you're carrying the weight of a SIR if you're running a COF in competition, taking a Pat Rogers class, or clearing a building?

The argument that heavier objects don't matter if you'd just go to the gym just doesn't hold water. It's a bullshit argument and it comes up around here every time the issue of weight is mentioned. Lighter may not always be better, but in this case it damn sure is.

The test you mentioned is BS. Half the weight of a cell phone is the battery. So in your example, you need to take the lower off the rifle and just hold the upper out in front of you. Your test needs to keep the weight ratio in perspective, like only removing the cell phones antenna. Can the average human tell the difference between 8.7 lbs. and 9.0 lbs?

Posted: 12/28/2005 7:37:09 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
The main reason the ARMS system fell out of favor is because it is out of style. There are newer, sexier fahions in style.

You will come to learn after spending more time here how much of a male fashion show ARFCom can be.

ARMS will eventually release a newer, sexier rail and it will be all the rage until the next big thing comes along.

But whatever, it's good for the economy.

Add to your reason a poster by the screenname 3rdtk, who thoroughly pissed off everyone that did not like A.R.M.S., and you've got a winner!

Chris

Posted: 12/28/2005 7:42:50 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
At the end of the day I am old and Heavy. If you can't handle the weight of difference between a SIR and the Newest sexiest rail system, then go to the gym. I loose more weight in the bathroom every morning than the difference between the "OLD" SIR and the "NEW" and improved.

OK, this is the same old argument over and over again, and it's bullshit.

I don't care HOW strong you are, you get tired holding any amount of weight over a long period of time. That's a fact. Take a cell phone and hold it out in front of you with your arm outstretched. Eventually you're going to get tired of holding it. Now take the battery out and do the same thing. You can hold it out there longer, can't you?

This test works regardless of your strength level; you can hold something up longer if it's lighter. Again, this is a fact and applies no matter if you're some bulked-up juicer or the proverbial 98 pound weakling.

Given this, it is better to carry a lighter load than a heavier one. That is also a fact. You only carry weight that you need. In the case of the SIR, there are newer, lighter, better options available so there is no point in carrying the heavier object. If nothing else, every ounce you save on the rifle is an extra round of ammo or something that actually IS useful that you can carry.

There's also the matter of basic physics. The big fat shit you took this morning was being carried in your big fat gut, more or less directly above your legs. There was no moment force acting in this case. However the further away from your body a weight gets the more it appears to weigh. Go get your cell phone again. This time, instead of holding it straight out in front of you, hold it close in, 6" from your chest. You can hold it much longer close in than you can outrstretched, can't you?

Where do you think you're carrying the weight of a SIR if you're running a COF in competition, taking a Pat Rogers class, or clearing a building?

The argument that heavier objects don't matter if you'd just go to the gym just doesn't hold water. It's a bullshit argument and it comes up around here every time the issue of weight is mentioned. Lighter may not always be better, but in this case it damn sure is.

The test you mentioned is BS. Half the weight of a cell phone is the battery. So in your example, you need to take the lower off the rifle and just hold the upper out in front of you. Your test needs to keep the weight ratio in perspective, like only removing the cell phones antenna. Can the average human tell the difference between 8.7 lbs. and 9.0 lbs?

You failed highshool physics, didn't you?

If you pick up two identical rifles, one with a SIR and one with a Daniel Defense 7.0, you're telling me you can't tell a weight difference?

Not to mention, the weight is only one part of the whole equation that equals to the SIR being outdated. Go back up and re-read Yojimbo's post.

Posted: 12/28/2005 7:48:43 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
The test you mentioned is BS. Half the weight of a cell phone is the battery. So in your example, you need to take the lower off the rifle and just hold the upper out in front of you. Your test needs to keep the weight ratio in perspective, like only removing the cell phones antenna. Can the average human tell the difference between 8.7 lbs. and 9.0 lbs?

He's illustrating the difference between heavier and lighter not trying to make a direct comparison of the weight difference between two different forends.

Take a dumbell, smartguy, put a couple plates on it. You pick the weight. Time how long you can hold it. Let your muscles rest, take some of the weight off, you pick how much, try it again.

It's the same difference.

Posted: 12/28/2005 7:50:11 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Im hanging around here quite much latly but I cant recall having seen an arms SIR of any model here latly
how come. Do you think they are yesterdays stuff and rather prefer troy or larue
I mean they have no as much attachment points for extra stuff as the usaul rail design
but I think they have enough anyway.
so how come they have seem to decreased in popularity?

FWIW, Pick up any issue of SOF in the last year and you'll see them in use by our troopers over in the sandbox, as the US military believes in them and uses them, (much to shagrin of all the LaRue hawkers around here).

Really? Can you post some pics, I have yet to see a single one in use by the military and I have seen A LOT of pictures from over there. The only one I remember seeing is SimplyDynamics. Besides that I dont ever remember a single picture with one.

Page 3, go to combat diver's post.

Posted: 12/28/2005 8:00:42 AM EDT

[#27]

Despite all the pictures...I'm still convinced that the only people who bought them are the ones you see here...

Posted: 12/28/2005 8:01:58 AM EDT

[#28]

I think the SIR system is really an awsome concept but the weight kept me from getting one so I just use an MI rail system on my carbines. However if I get an SPR type set-up then I would definately go with a SIR.

Posted: 12/28/2005 8:04:32 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Im hanging around here quite much latly but I cant recall having seen an arms SIR of any model here latly
how come. Do you think they are yesterdays stuff and rather prefer troy or larue
I mean they have no as much attachment points for extra stuff as the usaul rail design
but I think they have enough anyway.
so how come they have seem to decreased in popularity?

FWIW, Pick up any issue of SOF in the last year and you'll see them in use by our troopers over in the sandbox, as the US military believes in them and uses them, (much to shagrin of all the LaRue hawkers around here).

Really? Can you post some pics, I have yet to see a single one in use by the military and I have seen A LOT of pictures from over there. The only one I remember seeing is SimplyDynamics. Besides that I dont ever remember a single picture with one.

Page 3, go to combat diver's post.

Um I see an AR on a hunting rack, but okay................

Posted: 12/28/2005 8:24:17 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
At the end of the day I am old and Heavy. If you can't handle the weight of difference between a SIR and the Newest sexiest rail system, then go to the gym. I loose more weight in the bathroom every morning than the difference between the "OLD" SIR and the "NEW" and improved.

OK, this is the same old argument over and over again, and it's bullshit.

I don't care HOW strong you are, you get tired holding any amount of weight over a long period of time. That's a fact. Take a cell phone and hold it out in front of you with your arm outstretched. Eventually you're going to get tired of holding it. Now take the battery out and do the same thing. You can hold it out there longer, can't you?

This test works regardless of your strength level; you can hold something up longer if it's lighter. Again, this is a fact and applies no matter if you're some bulked-up juicer or the proverbial 98 pound weakling.

Given this, it is better to carry a lighter load than a heavier one. That is also a fact. You only carry weight that you need. In the case of the SIR, there are newer, lighter, better options available so there is no point in carrying the heavier object. If nothing else, every ounce you save on the rifle is an extra round of ammo or something that actually IS useful that you can carry.

There's also the matter of basic physics. The big fat shit you took this morning was being carried in your big fat gut, more or less directly above your legs. There was no moment force acting in this case. However the further away from your body a weight gets the more it appears to weigh. Go get your cell phone again. This time, instead of holding it straight out in front of you, hold it close in, 6" from your chest. You can hold it much longer close in than you can outrstretched, can't you?

Where do you think you're carrying the weight of a SIR if you're running a COF in competition, taking a Pat Rogers class, or clearing a building?

The argument that heavier objects don't matter if you'd just go to the gym just doesn't hold water. It's a bullshit argument and it comes up around here every time the issue of weight is mentioned. Lighter may not always be better, but in this case it damn sure is.

Very valid points Now take a breath, please don't call me a juicer, and remain calm. ITs THE INTERNET!!!!

Posted: 12/28/2005 8:25:24 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
FWIW, Pick up any issue of SOF in the last year and you'll see them in use by our troopers over in the sandbox, as the US military believes in them and uses them, (much to shagrin of all the LaRue hawkers around here).

Really? Can you post some pics, I have yet to see a single one in use by the military and I have seen A LOT of pictures from over there. The only one I remember seeing is SimplyDynamics. Besides that I dont ever remember a single picture with one.

What part of "Pick up any issue of SOF in the last year and you'll see them in use by our troopers over in the sandbox", did you fail to comprehend?

Mike

ps - I don't scan pics from a subscription magazine and then post them to a public web-forum as IIRC that's a violation of copywrite laws......

Posted: 12/28/2005 8:28:05 AM EDT

[#32]

there are some pictures on arms homepage with marines (and others)using #58
I have also seen a video on a pmc with a sir shooting on a rooftop somewhere over there.
So yes, the sir is used in the sandbox and probebly hold up pretty good for that. (another guess there)

Posted: 12/28/2005 8:29:47 AM EDT

[#33]

That PMC involved in the shooting on the rooftop is SimplyDynamic from this website. You could ask him how it faired in the REAL world.

Posted: 12/28/2005 8:38:13 AM EDT

[#34]

yes that would be really interesting hearing his opinion on the matter.

Posted: 12/28/2005 8:41:35 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The test you mentioned is BS. Half the weight of a cell phone is the battery. So in your example, you need to take the lower off the rifle and just hold the upper out in front of you. Your test needs to keep the weight ratio in perspective, like only removing the cell phones antenna. Can the average human tell the difference between 8.7 lbs. and 9.0 lbs?

He's illustrating the difference between heavier and lighter not trying to make a direct comparison of the weight difference between two different forends.

Take a dumbell, smartguy, put a couple plates on it. You pick the weight. Time how long you can hold it. Let your muscles rest, take some of the weight off, you pick how much, try it again.

It's the same difference.

No I actually did pass my HS Physics class. Obviously, if I know that you need to keep the weight ratio perspective in play. Yeah if your pick up two completely identical rifle except for the forearm, you can tell the difference. But over a period of time, your muscles and nervous system become habituated to the weight, rendering the weight difference unnoticeable. At the end of a 10 hour day, do you think your body is going to notice the extra 8 oz?

Stryfe, smartguy, how can I put weight on a "dumbbell" when it is a fixed amount? Oh, you mean a "barbell". Anyhow, your example is flawed too. Were are not talking difference of weight in pounds, its ounces! Better example:

Flat bench: 140 lbs. rep to exhaustion
Flat bench: 135 lbs. rep to exhaustion

Could you do a significant number of reps more with 135 than 140? No you couldn't. Your muscles and nervous system do not readily perceive the difference in weight. This example compares well to a rifle equipped a DD forearm and one with a SIR.

The cell analogy would be repping out with 185 lbs and then with 135 lbs. Yes, you would definitely be able to do a significant number of reps more of 135 than 185.

Everyone's argument about the weight difference is in pounds, its not. Weight ratio is the factor. So your DD equipped carbine weighs 128 oz (8 lbs) and my ARMS equipped carbine weight 136 oz (8.5 lbs). I guarantee you that I can lift that 136 oz carbine just as many time as the 128 oz carbine. It 6% more in weight.

Another point that people overlook. Slings? Anyone ever use them? Used them correctly?

ETA: Dace, did you happen to read what was underneath the picture. Here I quoted it for you.

Here's my M4A1 on its second year of duty here in Iraq.

CD

Posted: 12/28/2005 9:01:26 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Im hanging around here quite much latly but I cant recall having seen an arms SIR of any model here latly
how come. Do you think they are yesterdays stuff and rather prefer troy or larue
I mean they have no as much attachment points for extra stuff as the usaul rail design
but I think they have enough anyway.
so how come they have seem to decreased in popularity?

FWIW, Pick up any issue of SOF in the last year and you'll see them in use by our troopers over in the sandbox, as the US military believes in them and uses them, (much to shagrin of all the LaRue hawkers around here).

Really? Can you post some pics, I have yet to see a single one in use by the military and I have seen A LOT of pictures from over there. The only one I remember seeing is SimplyDynamics. Besides that I dont ever remember a single picture with one.

Page 3, go to combat diver's post.

Um I see an AR on a hunting rack, but okay................

Read the caption.

Combat Diver has been involved in a number of SIR threads and many of us are familiar with his posts from Iraq.

Posted: 12/28/2005 9:22:47 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
FWIW, Pick up any issue of SOF in the last year and you'll see them in use by our troopers over in the sandbox, as the US military believes in them and uses them, (much to shagrin of all the LaRue hawkers around here).

Really? Can you post some pics, I have yet to see a single one in use by the military and I have seen A LOT of pictures from over there. The only one I remember seeing is SimplyDynamics. Besides that I dont ever remember a single picture with one.

What part of "Pick up any issue of SOF in the last year and you'll see them in use by our troopers over in the sandbox", did you fail to comprehend?

Mike

ps - I don't scan pics from a subscription magazine and then post them to a public web-forum as IIRC that's a violation of copywrite laws......

You recalled wrong. Its perfectly legal.

I still havent seen anyone pictures of them in action, and I just ran down ot the local book store, nope none in SOF Magazine either.

Posted: 12/28/2005 9:33:11 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Stryfe, smartguy, how can I put weight on a "dumbbell" when it is a fixed amount? Oh, you mean a "barbell". Anyhow, your example is flawed too. Were are not talking difference of weight in pounds, its ounces! Better example:

You understood what I was after. If you want to get into technicalities, there are a numer of ways to add or remove weight from a dumbell. Were you paying attention in shop class?

I guess, if you want, people could buy both systems, or track down someone who has them, and compare. What was suggested was a simple way that people could see for themselves the difference without going through much trouble.
Your response indicated that you were more interested in the exact ratios.
I attempted to offer a different perspective.

In the end, the point is that ounces add up to make pounds. If it was just a matter of one system being a few ounces more than another, then it is just a few ounces. But when you start adding up your gear, those ounces add up into pounds. There are always tradeoffs.

Posted: 12/28/2005 11:12:58 AM EDT

[#39]

Weight was not one of the reasons why I ditched my SIR.

Posted: 12/28/2005 12:33:19 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
will a SIR fit a POF piston upper?

POF Makes their own rail/forearm system, the Predator I think it's called, and it does fit over their piston systems.

John

"Shoot, Move, Communicate"

Posted: 12/28/2005 2:00:33 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Everyone's argument about the weight difference is in pounds, its not. Weight ratio is the factor. So your DD equipped carbine weighs 128 oz (8 lbs) and my ARMS equipped carbine weight 136 oz (8.5 lbs). I guarantee you that I can lift that 136 oz carbine just as many time as the 128 oz carbine. It 6% more in weight.

Another point that people overlook. Slings? Anyone ever use them? Used them correctly?

Thanks for putting both of these items together in your post.

Slings are a big part of the equation. I shoot competitions and in classes that require you to either keep the rifle slung and/or at low ready. A matter of ounces DOES add up over the course of a 4 hour competition or an 8 hour class. I know this firsthand from the two rifles that I built this year. The top one was a direct response to the fatigue issues with the bottom one, and my current builds for my be-all end-all carbines reflect the lessons I learned. I bought two Colt 6520s and am keeping with the lightest quality parts I can find (DD over Larue, Vltor over Magpul, etc).

I'm curious as to what it is you do with your rifle and what your experiences have been in the past? Classes? Competitions? If you only shoot at a static line then no, I don't expect the weight would ever be an issue or that you would really be qualified to comment on its effects over time.

Posted: 12/28/2005 2:03:12 PM EDT

[#42]

If 1/2 a pound bothers you it MIGHT be time to hit the gym.

Posted: 12/28/2005 2:13:48 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
If 1/2 a pound bothers you it MIGHT be time to hit the gym.

You need to go back and re-read page 3 and 4.

Posted: 12/28/2005 2:24:00 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If 1/2 a pound bothers you it MIGHT be time to hit the gym.

You need to go back and re-read page 3 and 4.

I've read it and that did not help.

Blackwater instructors and private security contractors seems to have no trouble taking that whopping 1/2 a pound extra into combat. Like I said, the only problem I have with the SIR is the $100 extra price tag compared with a LaRue witch is a slightly "Better" product in the first place. Paying that extra $100 now days just does not make sense. As for the ½ pound, if it bothered me I would just hit the gym.

Posted: 12/28/2005 2:55:36 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If 1/2 a pound bothers you it MIGHT be time to hit the gym.

You need to go back and re-read page 3 and 4.

I've read it and that did not help.

Blackwater instructors and private security contractors seems to have no trouble taking that whopping 1/2 a pound extra into combat. Like I said, the only problem I have with the SIR is the $100 extra price tag compared with a LaRue witch is a slightly "Better" product in the first place. Paying that extra $100 now days just does not make sense. As for the ½ pound, if it bothered me I would just hit the gym.

Lol, did you read anything the man just told you? A human being of any size, any strength will be able to hold something that is lighter for a longer period of time than they could hold something that is heavier. I do not understand why that is so difficult for people to comprehend.

Posted: 12/28/2005 8:37:09 PM EDT

[#46]

As with Hawkeye, my No. 1 carbine has a SIR. Here we are enjoying a course at Blackwater:

Heavy? Yes, but rifle PT takes care of that. It is solid and takes mucho abuse. There are other fine rail systems (I have had a RAS II and another weapon sports a Samson MRFS) out there, but I am satisfied with my SIR equipped weapon.

FWIW....SIRs are all they put on the weapons used by the folks at Blackwater (doing PSD work over in the Sandbox). I saw the Blackwater armorer's shop and all they had were drawers full of SIRs waiting to be installed on weapons.

Posted: 12/29/2005 1:44:55 AM EDT

[#47]

Come on GUYS !!! EVERYTIME a friggin' SIR thread comes along, this $H!T happens!

The question was simple enough .... so post your opinion and move on! Let's not argue. At the end of the day, its all a matter of PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

Posted: 12/29/2005 3:01:25 AM EDT

[#48]

I do not own a SIR rail system. I just haven't been able to justify the price for it.

I had not handled a SIR until about a month ago at one of the gunshows. It was mounted on an M4 platform. What caught me off guard was that I couldn't believe how light it was. After reading all of the posts on this board, I was convinced this rail system was an anchor.

Posted: 12/29/2005 3:13:41 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

I still havent seen anyone pictures of them in action, and I just ran down ot the local book store, nope none in SOF Magazine either.

Sorry I have the last 2 issues of SOF (Jan & Feb) on my coffee table at home and there are ARMS products (in-use) in pics in them, but here is a link which will more than suffice for most that ARMS products are in use in Iraq: www.armsmounts.com/catalog.php?action=110&cat_id=10

Mike

E.T.A. - you'll also note this there:

ANNOUNCEMENT
U.S. Department of Defense
Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs)
Contracts
--------------------------------------------------
5 p.m. ET March 29, 2005
--------------------------------------------------
Atlantic Research Marketing Systems, of West Bridgewater, Mass.was one of 3 companies, each one awarded a firm-fixed price, indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity award contract for $16,666,666 for the delivery of up to 92,877 Rail Interface Systems II (RIS II(S.I.R.)) and associated data.

The announcement can be viewed on the DOD web page at:

www.dod.mil/contracts/2005/ct20050329.html

excerpt:

Atlantic Research Marketing Systems, West Bridgewater, Mass.; Daniel Defense, Savannah, Ga.; and Knight’s Armament Co., Titusville, Fla., are each being awarded a firm-fixed price, indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity multiple award contract for a not-to-exceed task order ceiling of $16,666,666 (each) for the delivery of 92,877 (each) Rail Interface Systems II (RIS II) and associated data. Work will be performed in West Bridgewater, Mass.; Savannah, Ga.; and Titusville, Fla., and is expected to be completed by March 2010. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This multiple award contract was competitively procured via Federal Business Opportunities website, with eleven offers received. Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane Division, Crane, Ind., is the contracting activity (Atlantic Research Marketing Systems: N00164-05-D-4863; Daniel Defense: N00164-05-D-4864; Knight’s Armament Co.: N00164-05-D-4865).

Posted: 12/29/2005 4:55:09 AM EDT

[#50]

I saw a number of them in use in Afghanistan during 2001/2002. Boiled down to personal preference. They do seem to work well with the Eotech and ACOG sights that were common there.Keep in mind that what is popular amoung sport shooters in the US has very little bearing on what the military actually uses.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How come you never see a.r.m.s S.I.R here? (Page 2 of 3)

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