I was in another forum where this came up.

I got told (of course) that the AR15/M16 is a piece of shit that never works (So I wonder what I'm doing wrong, as mine have all been exceptional).

Then I got told the M14 is better because .308 turns "cover" (by which they meant "car doors," and claimed that sandbags were "unrealistic" cover...was this guy EVER in the military???) into "concealment."

Then that a Garand operator can reload without taking the firing hand off the stock, while of course anyone with an AR needs both hands to reload.  (I'm just  quoting these idiots, you understand.)

Now, the Garand is a fine rifle and I've shot several.  It's also a relic at this point.  The M14 had the ignominious distinction of being the shortest  lived small arm in the US inventory, because it wasn't signficantly better than a Garand and cost 3X as much.

Anyway, I issued a challenge to test all three weapons with the same conditions.

At which point I got stupid offers like "dump a can of creamed corn in the open action" and "Fill it with sand."

I'm proposing burying in sand, then shooting; sticking in a sandblast cabinet and swirling dust around (not direct blasting) and then shooting, and then dunking in mucky water and then shooting.

My personal experience with the AR (22 years) tells me it will handle this just fine.  It's also fairly realistic for military use (20 years experience).  I'm more than willing to volunteer my AR.  I need to find an M1A and a Garand that work well clean to submit to dirt.  I plan to document this in detail, with records and photos.

Anyone want to help with ammo, weapons or shooting tests?

Quoted: Never argue real guns with air softers.

Agreed, and no matter what tests are done, those people will only come up with different excuses.


You are wasting your time.  




ETA-  The difference between cover and concealment does change depending on what is being fired at you, they are correct on that note.

Any idiot that claims all ar's are junk or jam all the time are talking straight out of their ass. If they weren't fine rifles our military would have dumped thm a long time ago. End of story.I have a nice old russian SKS and have dumped a few thousand rounds through it with out a single failure. My Bushmaster has had close to 3000 rounds through it and has had 3 fte's.Not a bad record. All were with Wolf ammo. It works great in the SKS but I will not use it in my AR anymore. I know it won't hurt it but it's the only stuff that has ever failed in my AR.All other ammo has been perfect. Remember to never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with numbers. By the way I love creamed corn...just not in my rifle.

My M-16A2 functioned flawlessly during the 14 months I was in Iraq. I was confident that it would work without notice. But, I also kept my rifle clean. Cleaning was an absolute part of my daily routine. It got cleaned several times a day during dust storms. I also used an idea from D-day and kept my rifle wrapped in plastic bags while in my base camp.

I spent most of my time on open roads and my base camp was surrounded by "open" ground so the urban arguement wasn't much of a concern to me. I had all the confidence in the world that I was more than a match for a haji with an AK.

The only point I would agree on is that the 7.62 round would be much better in a MOUT environment. The 5.56 is not the best candidate for penetration in an urban environment.

I saw several 1st Infantry Division soldiers in Iraq with M-14's. I looked at them with envy without a doubt. 7.62 would be my pick in the urban fight!