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Posted: 12/17/2005 10:16:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 10:17:26 PM EDT by SecretKeeper]
I can't believe I am asking this question considering I was issued a M16A1 during my service..., well, while I was at boot camp...

All I did was shooting pop-up targets out to 250m to qualify. The instructor told me where to aim w/ A1 rear sight on pop-up target to hit torso area. I never got hold of another M16A1 once I left boot camp and then assigned to office working.

How A1 sight system was used for longer distance shooting? Was A1 sight system designed only cover relatively shorter engagement distance?



Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:26:04 PM EDT
Rotate front sight post for elevation.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:29:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cjk1:
Rotate front sight post for elevation.



I know and my question is more of...how did soldiers shoot during combat w/o readily adjustable elevation setting?

I guess A2 elevation would be still hectic to adjust during heat of combat but still it would be easier than A1 sight system.

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:45:24 PM EDT
my a2 sights are set to 100yds, I don't move them for 200 or 300yds
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:45:29 PM EDT
The A1 rear sight has 2 positions, one is marked "L" for long range, the other is for range out to 300m or so.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 11:04:32 PM EDT
Something like 90% of all combat shooting is done at 300 meters or less, if memory serves me. Given that, the two position flip sight of the M16 and M16A1 is perfectly adequate for it's intended use.

Ask any veteran of the Iraq imbrolio, either the first one or the current operation, how often they actually cranked the elevation knob in action, and my hunch is that nearly all them will say "never", or "hardly ever". But then my hunches have been off base before.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 9:42:58 PM EDT
my brother said he never did
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 9:58:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shamayim:
Something like 90% of all combat shooting is done at 300 meters or less, if memory serves me. Given that, the two position flip sight of the M16 and M16A1 is perfectly adequate for it's intended use.

Ask any veteran of the Iraq imbrolio, either the first one or the current operation, how often they actually cranked the elevation knob in action, and my hunch is that nearly all them will say "never", or "hardly ever". But then my hunches have been off base before.



+1
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:59:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SecretKeeper:
How A1 sight system was used for longer distance shooting? Was A1 sight system designed only cover relatively shorter engagement distance?



From 0-300M all you need to do is aim center of mass and fire. The flat trajectory of the M16A1 combined with the 43M/250M battlesight zero meant you had a very good chance of hitting the target if you aimed center of mass.

Now 0-300M covers something like 99% of all battlefield engagements.

IF there was somthing out in the 400M range you could flip to the other aperture (marked 'L') for the 375M zero and try.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:01:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 8:02:33 AM EDT by 1-Michigun]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By SecretKeeper:
How A1 sight system was used for longer distance shooting? Was A1 sight system designed only cover relatively shorter engagement distance?



From 0-300M all you need to do is aim center of mass and fire. The flat trajectory of the M16A1 combined with the 43M/250M battlesight zero meant you had a very good chance of hitting the target if you aimed center of mass.

Now 0-300M covers something like 99% of all battlefield engagements.

IF there was somthing out in the 400M range you could flip to the other aperture (marked 'L') for the 375M zero and try.



So, if I'm reading/understanding this link correctly (groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/officialm16m16a1zeromethod.msnw) all I have to do is flip my A1 rear sight aperture to the “L” & zero it dead on @ 25m… and once this is completed all I have to do then to get it “battle ready” is to flip it back to the “unmarked” aperture?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:08:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1-Michigun:
So, if I'm reading/understanding this link correctly (groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/officialm16m16a1zeromethod.msnw) all I have to do is flip my A1 rear sight aperture to the “L” & zero it dead on @ 25m… and once this is completed all I have to do then to get it “battle ready” is to flip it back to the “unmarked” aperture?



Yep - simple to zero & shoot.

The trajectory from a M16A1 with M193 is close to the Santose IBSZ, though it rises a bit higher (up to 5" IIRC) at it's peak, but doesn't drop as much at 300M.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:55:16 AM EDT
I remember having to shoot low at the 50 meter target and aiming at the head of a 300 meter target to get a center of mass hit. Takes to long to adjust sights, even flipping the aperature. It's faster to change your point of aim but it takes practice and an ability to determine range with the naked eye.

Can you say "Kentucky Windage"?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 9:30:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By 1-Michigun:
So, if I'm reading/understanding this link correctly (groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/officialm16m16a1zeromethod.msnw) all I have to do is flip my A1 rear sight aperture to the “L” & zero it dead on @ 25m… and once this is completed all I have to do then to get it “battle ready” is to flip it back to the “unmarked” aperture?



Yep - simple to zero & shoot.

The trajectory from a M16A1 with M193 is close to the Santose IBSZ, though it rises a bit higher (up to 5" IIRC) at it's peak, but doesn't drop as much at 300M.



Thanks Forest... that wasn't stated very clearly on The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:29:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1-Michigun:
Thanks Forest... that wasn't stated very clearly on The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site.



Which part wasn't clear? The instructions or the trajecotory?

If you need info on the trajectories I've got a chart in the Documents section called "Ammo Track.XLS" with trajectory data for a variety of zeros, fired from a variety of barrel lengths, using a variety of ammo (M193, M855, Mk262). You can compare the different zeros (data & graphs) using that file.

hope it helps.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:40:17 AM EDT
Love the A1
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:00:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By 1-Michigun:
Thanks Forest... that wasn't stated very clearly on The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site.



Which part wasn't clear? The instructions or the trajecotory?



Well, without trying to come off a bit slow……. it was the instruction part.

Inside the actual “Army 250 Meter Zero for the M16/M16A1 Rifle” instructions I saw no reference to where we were to be shooting at a target placed on the 25m line.

Maybe it’s just me?
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:33:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1-Michigun:

Inside the actual “Army 250 Meter Zero for the M16/M16A1 Rifle” instructions I saw no reference to where we were to be shooting at a target placed on the 25m line.

Maybe it’s just me?



No you're right - It's inferred in the description and the last instruction point but never explicitily pointed out.

Thanks I'll correct that!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:35:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

Can you say "Kentucky Windage"?





Sadly, I think there is a large group of people who won't even know what that is, never mind actually use it.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:36:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2005 12:36:35 PM EDT by mfingar]
We zeroed our A1's at 25 Meters, and never adjusted them after that.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:10:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

Can you say "Kentucky Windage"?





Sadly, I think there is a large group of people who won't even know what that is, never mind actually use it.



Yeah, but the drill sergeants preach against it during the whole basic rifle marksmanship block so it has a negative stigma.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:14:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Skyssx:

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

Can you say "Kentucky Windage"?





Sadly, I think there is a large group of people who won't even know what that is, never mind actually use it.



Yeah, but the drill sergeants preach against it during the whole basic rifle marksmanship block so it has a negative stigma.



We're not talking about windage, so what is this, Tennessee elevation? Missouri hold-over?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 3:44:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 3:49:16 AM EDT by 1-Michigun]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By 1-Michigun:

Inside the actual “Army 250 Meter Zero for the M16/M16A1 Rifle” instructions I saw no reference to where we were to be shooting at a target placed on the 25m line.

Maybe it’s just me?



No you're right - It's inferred in the description and the last instruction point but never explicitily pointed out.

Thanks I'll correct that!



Very good sir! (Always nice to find out that it wasn’t just you. )

By the way, once I stopped & thought about it all for a bit it dawned on me that I had to be shooting at a target placed on the 25m line… because after all, one click to the A1 sights would have moved a HECK of a lot more then 0.25” @ 250 meters!

I’d also like to take this time to say; GREAT site/work Forest, I stop by often! (FYI, between my 1st & 2nd post in this thread is when I finally figured out that The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site was all you… I guess I hadn’t read that far yet. )


Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

Can you say "Kentucky Windage"?





Sadly, I think there is a large group of people who won't even know what that is, never mind actually use it.



Not only do I know what "Kentucky Windage" is, but also know what a "Kentucky Rifle" is.







.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:21:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 10:22:19 AM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By 1-Michigun:
(FYI, between my 1st & 2nd post in this thread is when I finally figured out that The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site was all you… I guess I hadn’t read that far yet. )



Thanks for the kind words, but I'd like to take a moment to point out the site is NOT "all me". I have contributions from many many people (several from this site) and Fight4YourRights helped alot in the begining adding & editing the articles with me. I may be 'top dog' at the site, but it was a group effort.



Oh those are just works of art! Did you build them?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:29:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:
Can you say "Kentucky Windage"?


Sadly, I think there is a large group of people who won't even know what that is, never mind actually use it.



It's critical. I always wonder WTF is going on when I see pics of soldiers in the mid east with their rear sight bases dialed WAY UP! (you can see daylight under em sometimes)

To me it's not that hard to compensate for holdover or bullet drop.

Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:33:46 AM EDT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Stickman:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

Can you say "Kentucky Windage"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sadly, I think there is a large group of people who won't even know what that is, never mind actually use it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Yeah, but the drill sergeants preach against it during the whole basic rifle marksmanship block so it has a negative stigma.



They preach against it now because the A2 zero procedures are designed so a soldier can aim center mass at all ranges out to 300 meters. One step closer to an idiot proof soldier, I guess.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:00:18 AM EDT
I still think A1 sights are superior to A2's. For service/combat use, battle sight zero and forget it. The extra "stuff" is just something else to break.

If you are shooting a long range competition, it might be useful.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 10:30:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1-Michigun:
Can you say "Kentucky Windage"?



Nice Matchlock! The others are pretty nice too.

I'm working on a snaphaunce fowler myself.

Cheers,

ZD
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 10:49:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 10:55:43 AM EDT by 1-Michigun]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By 1-Michigun:
(FYI, between my 1st & 2nd post in this thread is when I finally figured out that The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site was all you… I guess I hadn’t read that far yet. )



Thanks for the kind words, but I'd like to take a moment to point out the site is NOT "all me". I have contributions from many many people (several from this site) and Fight4YourRights helped alot in the begining adding & editing the articles with me. I may be 'top dog' at the site, but it was a group effort.



I'm sure you're just being modest.


Originally Posted By Forest:



img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/Michigun/1Traditionalist.jpg



Oh those are just works of art! Did you build them?



I wish I had that kind of patients/talent (It’s the stock/wood work that kicks my butt.)… those are some of my father’s “from scratch” builds (I’ll pass along your kind words)… the “from scratch” powder horn & its scrimshaw work is also another of his talents.

And to think that my wife feels that my AR habits are a bit overboard… they pale in comparison to my father’s muzzleloading (& EVERYTHING else to do with the colonial times) habits!


Originally Posted By ZipityDoodah:
Nice Matchlock! The others are pretty nice too.



Thanks, I’ll pass along the compliments!


Originally Posted By ZipityDoodah:
I'm working on a snaphaunce fowler myself.



I’m sure my dad would be VERY interested in that build… his current (going on 2 years now) project is a “wheel-lock”.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 11:24:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:
I still think A1 sights are superior to A2's. For service/combat use, battle sight zero and forget it. The extra "stuff" is just something else to break.

If you are shooting a long range competition, it might be useful.



Um, that's all you do with an A2. Zero it at 25 meters, verify at a KD range if you can and you are good to go. You do have to remember that little task of adjusting your elevation knob one or two clicks depending if you have an A2 or A4, but that is pretty simple.

Oh, you mean that elevation knob/range adjustor/wannabe bullet drop compensator that hardly anyone ever uses. Stuff that I've never seen broken or damaged. I think I played with them once on a live fire defense, but I don't know anyone who has ever actually used them. The chance of breaking something is so small, that I'd bet you'd be damaging the entire carrying handle before you hurt the sight. Never used, but I guess it's nice to have just incase you do need to lay some supressive fires at 800 or 600 meters.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:26:25 AM EDT
They didnt need to use the sights, they had full auto.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:53:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:

Originally Posted By efpeter:
I still think A1 sights are superior to A2's. For service/combat use, battle sight zero and forget it. The extra "stuff" is just something else to break.

If you are shooting a long range competition, it might be useful.



Um, that's all you do with an A2. Zero it at 25 meters, verify at a KD range if you can and you are good to go. You do have to remember that little task of adjusting your elevation knob one or two clicks depending if you have an A2 or A4, but that is pretty simple.

Oh, you mean that elevation knob/range adjustor/wannabe bullet drop compensator that hardly anyone ever uses. Stuff that I've never seen broken or damaged. I think I played with them once on a live fire defense, but I don't know anyone who has ever actually used them. The chance of breaking something is so small, that I'd bet you'd be damaging the entire carrying handle before you hurt the sight. Never used, but I guess it's nice to have just incase you do need to lay some supressive fires at 800 or 600 meters.




Yes, that elevation wheel. I will freely admit that I have not seen one break, either. But, I believe in Murphy's law and K.I.S.S.
1. the more "stuff" there is, the more stuff that can/will break
2. I have never used one/seen one used
3. an area target @ 600/800m is pissin' in the wind. (my opinion)

I know most people who post here can outshoot Carlos Hathcock, but I can't! I never trained to shoot that far, or even went over any senario's that raised the possibility. I know long distance shooting is covered in a FM or TM somewhere, but I don't have to worry about that anymore!

I just think the A1 sights are better.



Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:24:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USNTopGun378:
They didnt need to use the sights, they had full auto.


Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:49:10 PM EDT

Yeah, but the drill sergeants preach against it during the whole basic rifle marksmanship block so it has a negative stigma.


We were told to aim low for 100m and 150m targets. It worked well and was easy to remember so I still do it.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:06:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By boltcatch:

Yeah, but the drill sergeants preach against it during the whole basic rifle marksmanship block so it has a negative stigma.


We were told to aim low for 100m and 150m targets. It worked well and was easy to remember so I still do it.



Because that's where the highest point in the trajectory is with a 275 yard some odd zero. I was trying to tell my cousin this who shot expert and said he always missed one around 100 yards. And that was the only one he missed. He didn't understand what I meant though.
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