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Posted: 12/16/2005 9:38:03 PM EDT
Just wondering if anyone has shot the new HK-416 and if anyone knows the price?
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:46:14 PM EDT
A few uppers were mistakenly sold. The ATF has a problem with them or something. I don't think you will ever see them available again.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:37:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Alien:
A few uppers were mistakenly sold. The ATF has a problem with them or something. I don't think you will ever see them available again.



I didnt think any had been sold. If they were you wont get your hands on any anytime soon.

POF (or POR?) makes an upper that is very similar to the HK416 that you can buy.

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:52:18 AM EDT
Not to be a search Nazi, but if you use the search function, you will find about eleventy billion threads on the 416, and, yes, some people here have shot them (but not very many).
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:00:22 AM EDT
I have one of their "HIGH-RELIABILITY 30-ROUND STEEL MAGAZINE "MARITIME" ANTI-CORROSION COATED MAGAZINE" whoa that was a mouthful. They cost a pretty penny, but it is far away better than any USGI mag. Night & Day isn't even enough of contrast to compare how superior they are.

$50 bucks a mag is still bullshit though. But, what are you going to do right? 1 H&K mag is good for me.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:07:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheMocoMan:
I have one of their "HIGH-RELIABILITY 30-ROUND STEEL MAGAZINE "MARITIME" ANTI-CORROSION COATED MAGAZINE" whoa that was a mouthful. They cost a pretty penny, but it is far away better than any USGI mag. Night & Day isn't even enough of contrast to compare how superior they are.

$50 bucks a mag is still bullshit though. But, what are you going to do right? 1 H&K mag is good for me.



I agree. I bought one HK mag for $50 and it is a lot of money, but it is the best AR15 mag I own. I guess the HK mags are not as expensive now. Some people said that dealers at the SAR show had HK mags for $30 and 35 bucks.

There was a good article on the HK 416 in one of the past issues of SAR magazine. Their findings is that the HK M416 is one of the best M16s ever built. Now sure there are other piston upper M16s out there but the HK is a very well built rifle.

As for price??? The price is whatever HK Defense is selling them to LEOs for. HK said that the upper would be sale for US civilian sales, but they retracted that idea.

Some class III dealers imported the HK 416 as complete rifles and then sold the uppers for $2,500 and up. HK did not like this and said that the uppers were stolen....even though they were not.

The dealers bought the uppers back and HK now has the "missing" uppers.

I am a fan of HK, I really enjoy their products but, I am very disapointed in HKs actions in the past five years.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 11:06:29 AM EDT
$2,500 for an upper? Unless they somehow improved the design (yeah right), then that is a rip off no matter how you cut it. A new gas system is not worth 1800+ dollars when you can get a better one for $300.

Supply and demand, I guess.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 11:35:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CrashAxis:
$2,500 for an upper? Unless they somehow improved the design (yeah right), then that is a rip off no matter how you cut it. A new gas system is not worth 1800+ dollars when you can get a better one for $300.

Supply and demand, I guess.



Supply and demand is right.

Lets say the HK were to sell the 416 as a semi auto in the US. I would pay up to $1,500 or 1,600 for it. Because I understand that it will cost more than a Colt 6920 and being imported the value of the dollar vs. the euro adds to the cost. And nothing HK is cheap.

As for $2,500 was it a rip off?? Well not really, since HK was not selling these and the BATF barrel ban the 416 upper would have been a great collectors item.

You want to know what is really sad...there is a guy on HKpro who has a WTB post on HKpro for a 416 upper. He is willing to spend up to $3,500

HK could be making a lot of money by selling these things in the US, but they won't and now thanks to the new BATF BS barrel ban looks like it was wise for HK not to sell in the U.S.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 2:29:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gbatch750:
Just wondering if anyone has shot the new HK-416 and if anyone knows the price?



If you want to buy one heres the closest thing:

http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-416upper.htm

POF-USA sells a semi-auto HK416 clone called P-415, and they have a full auto too (P-416).

Price for the upper is $975, the lower is another $375, for a grand total of $1350.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 2:30:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UZI4you:

Originally Posted By CrashAxis:
$2,500 for an upper? Unless they somehow improved the design (yeah right), then that is a rip off no matter how you cut it. A new gas system is not worth 1800+ dollars when you can get a better one for $300.

Supply and demand, I guess.



Supply and demand is right.

Lets say the HK were to sell the 416 as a semi auto in the US. I would pay up to $1,500 or 1,600 for it. Because I understand that it will cost more than a Colt 6920 and being imported the value of the dollar vs. the euro adds to the cost. And nothing HK is cheap.

As for $2,500 was it a rip off?? Well not really, since HK was not selling these and the BATF barrel ban the 416 upper would have been a great collectors item.

You want to know what is really sad...there is a guy on HKpro who has a WTB post on HKpro for a 416 upper. He is willing to spend up to $3,500

HK could be making a lot of money by selling these things in the US, but they won't and now thanks to the new BATF BS barrel ban looks like it was wise for HK not to sell in the U.S.



Whats with the BATF barrel ban? what exactly does it ban/say?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 3:21:02 PM EDT
The HK upper is a definate improvement, but 99% of us will never know to what extent.

The POF is not like the HK, it only has a similar name to go along with the HK selector markings on the lower. It is not a clone, it is just marketed to appear similar.

I'd like an HK416 upper, but I'll pass on the mags. For the price of one HK mag, you could have two Magpul improved mags, that are quite possibly better in performance.

AR mags were made out of aluminum for a reason. I'm not going to drive over an empty mag, so having a heavy and rust prone mag body serves no purpose for me.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 3:50:16 PM EDT
The HK mag is much more reliable than a standard NATO mag even with a Mag Pull.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:03:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 4:06:33 PM EDT by olds442tyguy]

Originally Posted By Blackmagic94:
The HK mag is much more reliable than a standard NATO mag even with a Mag Pull.



Has that been proven? Under what circumstances?

It's very rare that you hear complaints about USGI mags, let alone when they're fitted with Magpul accessories. All I've heard about the 416 mags has been word of mouth and camp fire stories.

Don't take my skepticism as an insult, I just don't see why people are willing to pay $50 for a steel mag that it is very closely compareable to a standard mag at half the price.

Eventually HK's coating wears off, and that wearing will be accelerated when it's in a mag well. Bare steel rusts very easily, especially when it's in contact with the oils from human hands.

ETA: Sorry man, we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about Magpul followers, not the magazine attachments at the bottom of the mag.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:08:53 PM EDT
Okay, to avoid being blasted out of the water for what I'm about to say, let me add this caveat: TAKE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT.


A friend of mine who is a pilot in the 160th AvnRgt (Nightstalkers) nearby at Ft. Campbell is a gun afficianado like myself. The other day he called HK to inquire about the 416 upper, as some of his work "customers" utilize them and he had developed an interest. He tried to get them to sell him one as a military member but of course, no dice. However, before he ended his conversation the guy told him that HK was going to TRY to make the 416 available for commercial sale, but couldn't guarantee anything. This reminded me of a post I read here not long ago (that got instantly pooh-pooh'ed) that HK was considering making these for civie sale.


Having said the above, I still doubt we'll ever see it happen.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:01:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 5:08:26 PM EDT by jaymeister99]

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:

Originally Posted By Blackmagic94:
The HK mag is much more reliable than a standard NATO mag even with a Mag Pull.



Has that been proven? Under what circumstances?

It's very rare that you hear complaints about USGI mags, let alone when they're fitted with Magpul accessories. All I've heard about the 416 mags has been word of mouth and camp fire stories.

Don't take my skepticism as an insult, I just don't see why people are willing to pay $50 for a steel mag that it is very closely compareable to a standard mag at half the price.

Eventually HK's coating wears off, and that wearing will be accelerated when it's in a mag well. Bare steel rusts very easily, especially when it's in contact with the oils from human hands.

ETA: Sorry man, we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about Magpul followers, not the magazine attachments at the bottom of the mag.



I'll second that. I have yet to see a USGI mag rust. My USGI alloy mags will last long after I die, even if I let em sit out in the garage for 50 years. Try that with an old steel mag. My AK steel mags that were out there are already rusted up after a year. Granted the HK mags have much better corrosion resistance, but run a couple of thousand rounds through em and see how fast they rust up when the finish wears off.

I know, the steel mags dont dent as easily. But you have to handle em pretty rough to dent a USGI mag. Ive dropped em onto concrete, ice, and rocks. I have yet to dent one.

As for the reliability, the HK mags supposedly have a 30-50% better rate till failure than a standard USGI mag. I dont know if I buy that.

Even if it does, doesnt it make more sense to buy new USGI mags at 1/3 the price? At that rate if the USGI mags were replaced sooner they would be more cost effective and just as reliable. Drop in a magpul type follower and they could be twice as cost effective and relatively more reliable. See what Im saying here?

I'll stick with my old USGI mags and put some maqpul followers in em. Cheaper, lighter, and well proven.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:17:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 5:54:11 PM EDT by redfisher]
I realize the topic is the HK 416, but that is not happening for civilians for the foreseeable future.

gratuitous pix!





A pretty good HI RES 416

with respect to the HK mags..............that has been debated ad infinitum here, and while there is no consensus among armchair commandos, there is substantial reference from professionals that affirm the HK mags reliability increase, and have been universally accepted it as the best available

scientific? No

But apparently the military thinks enough of them to make them part of the SOPMOD enhancements and assigned them a NSN.

They are much more durable (mag body), have stronger springs, have buttery smooth steel followers, lack any "holes" in the mag body to prevent dirt, sand and junk getting in and fouling the action, and have a special corrosion resistant finish.

Just wish Magpul had a Ranger Plate for them
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:56:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ABNAK:
However, before he ended his conversation the guy told him that HK was going to TRY to make the 416 available for commercial sale, but couldn't guarantee anything.




Once HK gets its US factory up to speed in the US, the 416 will be a go for civilian sales. This is what I've been told from people who have been right on other interesting things in the past. Pricing is going to be real close to Colt, or at least so I've been told so far. Figure them to be roughly a couple hundred bucks more than a 6920.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:01:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 7:24:55 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
I have handled and shot a 10.5" HK416. I also had the system explained to me in great detail by an expert closely related to the project. The upper was mounted on a semi-auto only LMT lower. It was a dream to shoot and I came away very impressed. The fit, finish, and reliability of the weapon was absolutely impeccable. I would buy one in a heartbeat. In fact I would already own one if not for being on vacation when they became available and falling victim to the BS Internet speculation about them. One upper was still available when I got back, but I hesitated until it was too late. At least 99.9% of what you read on the Internet about the HK416 is complete BS or grossly inaccurate at the very least. I have a feeling competition has much to do with this.

Just a few facts:

(1.) HK's Military/LEO price for the HK416 upper is between $1000-$1300. I’m told the civilian price (If it ever happens) will be a couple hundred more. The $2300 price was set by the few dealers (One in particular) who got their hands on a small number of uppers from a cancelled military/LEO order. HK cannot be blamed for this high price. They did not inflate the price; a few dealers did that all by themselves.

(2.) The POF is not a “Clone” of the HK416. Its just another AR gas piston design using name recognition to it’s fullest.

(3.) HK can also not be blamed for the $50 asking price we see for the "High Reliability" mags. I seen a few dealers selling them for $30-$35. They are certainly not losing any money selling them. I would assume HK dealer price must be in the $20-$25 range. That means dealers and not HK are setting the highly inflated price. I payed $43 each for mine.

(4.) The much talked about "Stolen" uppers have been deemed perfectly legal by the ATF. I'm sure the wild BS that was talked about on every Internet forum scared a few buyers, but the truth is out now. It only proves that you should not believe everything you read on Internet forums. I know several guys who still own theirs. Hell, I'm still trying to talk them into selling it to me.

(5.) The HK416 is already in service with several Tier 1 U.S. Military and Federal LEO units. I was just told 3,000-5,000 uppers are in military service alone, but I have not had this confirmed.

I’m still trying to be optimistic on them becoming available to the civilian market in late 2006. I keep hearing rumors of State/Local LEO sales in 2006. Hopefully civilian sales will come after that. I keep hearing that the Colt lawsuit against HK’s use of the name “M4” might have played a hand in their delay to the State/Local LEO market, as well as the civilian market but I have never gotten a straight answer on this.

Pictures I have collected:

The most recent came from an industry show in Paris a few weeks ago:







Photos emailed to me from an HKPro member:

HK416 (10.5", 14.5", and 16")






Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:42:44 PM EDT
Hey Dinger, an excellent (and well informed) summary. As a 25 yr HK collector, I have ZERO faith that they will sell these things to the general public. I hope I'm wrong because they are the HEAT:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b243/conndcj/HK41607.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b243/conndcj/HK41604.jpg

BTW, $3500 and climbing. Truthfully, my Noveske/Colt/LaRue uppers are right there with it but people will pay for the little red HK.hug.gif
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:01:13 PM EDT
I'd love to hav one but I'm going to settle with a LW piston until HK decides what they really want to do...

Spooky
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:09:09 PM EDT
I had a set of the sights...





...but I lost them in my boating accident.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 9:32:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 10:03:42 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
I would love to know if HK really made a deal to keep the HK416 off the civilian market as part of the out of court settlement with Colt over the "M4" lawsuit. I keep reading and hearing that this is part of our problem.

If so, they should have used Bushmaster's lawyer.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 11:04:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I would love to know if HK really made a deal to keep the HK416 off the civilian market as part of the out of court settlement with Colt over the "M4" lawsuit. I keep reading and hearing that this is part of our problem.

If so, they should have used Bushmaster's lawyer.



I have heard that as well. Allthou, I think it would be VERY hard for Colt to argue that people would mistake a standard M4 for the 416, there is considerable product differentiation there. As you said,
they should have hired better attorneys.

In regards to the factory (Stickman), does anyone know what the current state of affairs is with that?

Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:21:38 AM EDT
After seeing those photos, who can say that is not the pinnacle of the AR15/M16 to date?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 5:53:57 AM EDT
Apparently in the mad rush for HK416 components a few of the diopter sights became available. As per 48th Highlander, he sold the few he had only to find out that they were not compatible with standard flattop uppers. It seems that the extra height of the 416 upper receiver skews the equation when used with standard flattops and standard front sights, i.e. they don't line up properly. Buyer beware!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:03:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ABNAK:
Apparently in the mad rush for HK416 components a few of the diopter sights became available. As per 48th Highlander, he sold the few he had only to find out that they were not compatible with standard flattop uppers. It seems that the extra height of the 416 upper receiver skews the equation when used with standard flattops and standard front sights, i.e. they don't line up properly. Buyer beware!



The problem with the HK sights is the height in relation to the bore center-line. Since the picatinny rail on top of the 416 receiver and the 12 o'clock rail on the free-float are higher than a standard AR/M16 (approx 1/4"-3/8"). The HK iron sights are slightly shorter than commonly available AR/M16 sights (such as Troy units) to compensate for this additional height. HK sights can be used on a regular AR/M16 as long as they are used as a pair, but they sit about 1/4"-3/8" lower than standard units. The opposite is also true, any currently available BUIS can also be used on a 416 but they will be about 1/4"-3/8" higher. That is what a Gov. agency did when they purchased 416's, they replaced the HK units for Troy units. The only thing you can't do is mix & match HK sights with commonly available AR/M16 sigths. HK also makes a folding front sight for the 416, but it is part of the gas-block for the piston system.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:37:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By ABNAK:
However, before he ended his conversation the guy told him that HK was going to TRY to make the 416 available for commercial sale, but couldn't guarantee anything.




Once HK gets its US factory up to speed in the US, the 416 will be a go for civilian sales. This is what I've been told from people who have been right on other interesting things in the past. Pricing is going to be real close to Colt, or at least so I've been told so far. Figure them to be roughly a couple hundred bucks more than a 6920.



Stickman, I know you have been around here for awhile, and you have some nice weapons. Do I see a 416 in your future..... not likely. Would I like to have one too? Absolutely. The HK factory will most likely only produce handguns to help fufill the homeland security contract.... If HK every decided to actually start constuction. Unless you have an "insider" with HK, this is not the same story I'm hearing from HK. Lets hope I'm wrong, because I'd shell out some extra clams for a legitimate HK 416.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:41:21 AM EDT
Okay, I have a fair amount of experience and a little bit of knowledge regarding older AR/M16 variants.

As far as new stuff, I have a lot to learn.

Can someone tell me what kind of pistol grip is on the 416 receiver?

Thanks in Advance,

Steve D aka uxb
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:21:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uxb:

Can someone tell me what kind of pistol grip is on the 416 receiver?




Well, in the first set of pics it is a Tango down. Then in the second, it looks like an Ergo Grip, and in one of the pics there looks like a Magpul MIAD.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:23:42 PM EDT
Thanks, Stainless!
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 9:04:16 PM EDT
The H&K mags are now standard SOPMOD issue. They ARE nice, but a bit heavier than the standard aluminum mag. I share the opinion of a lot of fellas who want that weight difference to be in extra ammo, not a magazine. I'm deploying with em' but I'm bringing the ally ones too.
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