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Posted: 12/13/2005 5:49:10 PM EDT
I will be buying a complete 20" upper very soon.

My inclination is to go with a government profile barrel.

How fast does this profile barrel start heating up and loosing accuracy?

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:53:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:59:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:42:02 PM EDT
Heavy barrels are for machineguns and for shooting off the bench.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 6:55:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 6:56:16 PM EDT by cmm]
Neither. Pencil thin is what I prefer

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:14:55 PM EDT

Heavy barrels are for machineguns and for shooting off the bench.


Pretty much what I thought and where I was heading. This will not be strictly a bench gun hence my question about HBARs.

Any issues with free floating government profiles?

Sweet looking rifle there cmm. What kind of barrel is that?

The finish on it makes it look like carbon fiber.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:15:50 PM EDT
Having owned HBARs, and Gov't Profiles, I say GOV'T.


Prob will even have an HBAR turned down to GOVT profile.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:27:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 7:29:09 PM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]
I've shot a 20" government profile to the point that the CLP smoked off the barrel and the barrel turned white and it never showed a significant change (>2 MOA) in zero at 100yds.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:28:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:29:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmm:
Neither. Pencil thin is what I prefer

i8.photobucket.com/albums/a21/cmam_az/IMG_7892.jpg



How is that shooting for you, CMM?
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 7:47:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 8:03:25 PM EDT by fight4yourrights]
I've sold off all my Hbars.


Gov't profile all the way.


Even for my DMR (yes, it's a gov't profile):






and another

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:00:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 8:01:49 PM EDT by SelectFire]
I've got a Government profile RRA 20 on layaway at the "local gun shop"
It's going to be made into my version of a SP1 and you can tell the difference.
Government profile rules.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:14:48 PM EDT
Yeah I'm getting a government profile. Just didn't pull the trigger yet and was having last minute doubts.

Already have the green furniture and the lower. The upper will be my Chrismas present to myself!

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:19:13 PM EDT
The first AR I bought was with an HBAR.



Never again... M4/Govt/Pencil... anything but HBAR.



- BG
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:22:43 PM EDT
Govt all the way.

This thing feels lighter than my M4.


Floated Govt:

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:55:37 PM EDT
Gee, I just bought a 20" HBAR upper from a member here on the boards and I kind of like it. It isn't as light as my M4gery, but c'mon, AR heavy ain't quite the same as "other" rifle heavy. Say for instance, an HK91!!
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:04:56 PM EDT
Glad to see you out of HTF Spiff.

Hbars weed out the mall ninjas



Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:10:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 45Ron:
Sweet looking rifle there cmm. What kind of barrel is that?

The finish on it makes it look like carbon fiber.

I believe it is a carbon fiber barrel.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:10:11 PM EDT
govt profile all the way

Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:25:08 PM EDT
Get the govt profile. HBARS are too heavy. It's not bad if your just shooting at a target off of a bench, but trust me walking around all day hog hunting with 3 or 4 mags and an HBAR gets tiring real fast.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:38:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By luckypunk:
Glad to see you out of HTF Spiff.

Hbars weed out the mall ninjas

tinypic.com/im0z61.jpg




That is a carbine.... you mall ninja.

Real men carry rifles.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:46:26 PM EDT
Naw....they use boat oars
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 9:48:39 PM EDT
Govt profile is the way to go unless your shooting CMP matches.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 10:18:24 PM EDT
I've always liked the feel of an HBAR. I like the balance, and recoil properties. Put a few thousand rounds through both under various conditions and you'll find what you prefer more.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:22:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By luckypunk:


Hbars weed out the mall ninjas bench warriors







Fixed it.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:23:42 AM EDT
Recently talked to a friend who was an armorer in the USMC in the 70's. He was talking about how many of the barrels would get bent from all sorts of abuse. His could change up to 70 barrels a day for this reason alone. I don't know if the shorter barrels are any less prone to this, but I would suspect they are. For me, it's the HBAR all the way.

Compared to my milsurps, all AR's with 20" or shorter barrels are carbines to me and even with a HBAR still a lot lighter to carry around all day. Even the K98a Mauser used in WWII was considered a carbine by some old soldiers who shouldered the original WWI model with it's 29" barrel.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:43:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:46:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:47:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gaweidert:

Recently talked to a friend who was an armorer in the USMC in the 70's. He was talking about how many of the barrels would get bent from all sorts of abuse. His could change up to 70 barrels a day for this reason alone. I don't know if the shorter barrels are any less prone to this, but I would suspect they are. For me, it's the HBAR all the way.




Do you spend all day practicing bayonetting?



I'd rather carry more AMMUNITION
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:11:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
I'd rather carry more AMMUNITION



Amen brutha, and pass the ammo.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:41:27 AM EDT

ecently talked to a friend who was an armorer in the USMC in the 70's. He was talking about how many of the barrels would get bent from all sorts of abuse. His could change up to 70 barrels a day for this reason alone. I don't know if the shorter barrels are any less prone to this, but I would suspect they are. For me, it's the HBAR all the way.


He was probably talking about the A1 barrels; that's one of the reasons the A2 is thicker past the FSB, idiots were bending the barrels doing things they shouldn't have been doing with them.

This topic comes up like once a week, and every time the "real men carry HBARs and gov't profiles are for sissies" crowd comes out from under their rocks.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:44:21 AM EDT
Govt Profile is best........which reminds me I have to send one off to get turned down after Christmas
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:49:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:55:19 AM EDT
I've heard that shooting with a tight sling (for support) will change POI at longer distances.

Will the POI change more by using a .gov profile? Will the HBAR work better in this case?

This would be in a NON-floating handguard application...(standard handguards).

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:58:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:09:54 AM EDT
I have a Colt 16" HBAR and do not find the weight any issue at all. I'm no big guy either (5'8" 150 lbs) so I'm surprised many are concerned about the weight.

Does anybody the exact weight difference btw the two
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:12:27 AM EDT
Gov't profile is so wonderful.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:14:40 AM EDT
Government profile.

Max
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 10:08:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 10:23:36 AM EDT by FishKepr]

Originally Posted By RRA-A2:
I've heard that shooting with a tight sling (for support) will change POI at longer distances.

Will the POI change more by using a .gov profile? Will the HBAR work better in this case?

This would be in a NON-floating handguard application...(standard handguards).

Thanks



Yes it is TRUE, but will it shift enough to bother you? Only you can answer that. If you use a LOT of tension (like me), no barrel profile will be enough to prevent a POI shift. If it bugs you, install a CMP type tube since you want to stick with standard handguards.

BTW, it's not the shift itself that messes you up. In theory, if you put the same tension on the rifle EVERY time, you'd be all right because the shift would be the same. However, in the real world that is next to impossible.

In general: Match shooters, or those who are simply trying to squeeze every ounce of accuracy of their rifles, are better off with a HBAR with a FF tube of some type. Pumpkin blasters are just fine with a LW profile.

ETA: Just get both so you're covered either way!
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 12:04:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 12:06:48 PM EDT by Rmplstlskn]
+2 for the Gov't profile...
Rmpl

Colt AR15A2 Gov't Model (6550)




Colt Sporter Target w/ gov't barrel (6551)
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 12:24:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FishKepr:

Originally Posted By RRA-A2:
I've heard that shooting with a tight sling (for support) will change POI at longer distances.

Will the POI change more by using a .gov profile? Will the HBAR work better in this case?

This would be in a NON-floating handguard application...(standard handguards).

Thanks



Yes it is TRUE, but will it shift enough to bother you? Only you can answer that. If you use a LOT of tension (like me), no barrel profile will be enough to prevent a POI shift. If it bugs you, install a CMP type tube since you want to stick with standard handguards.

BTW, it's not the shift itself that messes you up. In theory, if you put the same tension on the rifle EVERY time, you'd be all right because the shift would be the same. However, in the real world that is next to impossible.

In general: Match shooters, or those who are simply trying to squeeze every ounce of accuracy of their rifles, are better off with a HBAR with a FF tube of some type. Pumpkin blasters are just fine with a LW profile.

ETA: Just get both so you're covered either way!



Thanks for the reply. Being still new with my AR...I'll stay with my standard non-FF guards. Once I feel I'm not getting any better, I'll pick up a floated one. I'm sure I still have ALOT of room to improve myself as it is now.

I havent gotten a loop-type sling yet...just using the "hasty-sling" method. When in position, its tight....but not super tight...snug basically.

Sorry if I hi-jacked this thread @ all.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:40:08 PM EDT
If you put any noticeable tension on a barrel, it will change the point of impact. Not because you are bending or flexing the barrel; but because you change how the barrel vibrates. Get your barrel zeroed and then rest the barrel on a block of wood (instead of resting your handguards on the block) and you will see a shift in zero. So an HBAR doesn't really offer any advantages here that I've noticed (and that was with the shorter and even stiffer 16" barrel).

I ran a 16" HBAR for years and several classes and never had trouble with it, even with rails, flashlights, etc.; but it does start to get heavy when you add to it. The thing is you don't get any practical benefit over the gov't profile from the HBAR for the extra weight. A 16" HBAR weighs 2.7lbs. A 20" Gov't profile weighs 2.5lbs. On a 20" HBAR the barrel alone is going to weigh upwards of three pounds.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:43:07 PM EDT
I like lighter barrels. It means I can still run my optic and light without becoming a full time weight lifter.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:43:41 PM EDT
10" Fluted HBAR 1.5
10" HBAR 1.6
11.5" (A1 profile - XM177 type) 1.3
11.5" Fluted HBAR 1.6
11.5" HBAR 1.8
14.5" M4 1.6
14.5" M4A1 (heavier under the handguards) 1.8
14.5" Fluted HBAR 1.8
14.5" HBAR 2.1
16" Super Light Weight (A1 type) 1.5
16" M4 1.8
16" Mid Length (Govt Profile under handguards) 1.6
16" Medium Profile (0.75" for entire length) 1.8
16" Medium Profile MRP Barrel (includes gas block & gas tube) 2.3
16" Fluted HBAR 2.1
16" HBAR 2.3
16" M4 Dissapator 1.9
16" Fluted HBAR Dissapator 2.2
16" HBAR Dissapator 2.6
20" 'Pencil' (A1) Profile 1.8
20" Govt (A2) Profile 2.1
20" Fluted HBAR 2.6
20" HBAR 3.1
24" Fluted HBAR 2.7
24" HBAR 3.5

These weights do not include handguard cap, flash supressor, barrel nut & associate hardware. Weights are in pounds.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 3:59:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 4:08:06 PM EDT by cmm]

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
No issues with free floating them at all.

CMM's barrel looks like one of the new ABS carbon fiber wrapped stainless match barrels.



Yesireee, it is. It's from the ABS group buy that due to some turn of events, the barrels ended up being turned to pencil thin rather than government profile which is a good thing.


Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:

Originally Posted By cmm:
Neither. Pencil thin is what I prefer

i8.photobucket.com/albums/a21/cmam_az/IMG_7892.jpg



How is that shooting for you, CMM?



I posted this in another thread but will repeat this here:

I promised a range report and here it is. I got out to the range around 6:45AM, still dark but the range officer was letting people shoot and the illuminated reticle on the NF scope proved to be just wonderful. But back on topic. Load used was 23.5 grain Varget behind Hornady 75gr BTHP match bullets. Note this is a starting load for me so there's a possibility that there may be a more optimum charge weight for this bullet in this barrel for someone who's a more proficient shooter than I.

The following are the best 4 of 8 groups of the morning.


This one is a three shot group that went into 0.39 inches center to center. Cool!


The next three groups are 5 shot groups. I was still tweaking the scope settings so the center of the groups are not identical from group to group.

This one I had a flier when I jerked the trigger. It went off the paper.


The next two are my last two groups of the day and what a way to end the shooting session!







Finally, this is not a "bench" gun. I did this to see what the barrel was capable of and was extremely pleased. This will probably spend more time "naked" with iron sights and maybe slap on an Eotech on occassion. Rifle without scope weighs about 5 3/4 lbs with six CR123's in the stock, no magazine. Me like it this way VERY much. It's just nice to know that I have the precision of a match heavy barrel with the weight of a pencil thin profile so that I can hump this thing if I ever had to. The Carbon Fiber allows the barrel to cool 4x as fast and maintain rigidity so you can fire as fast as you want and not have the shots walking around as the barrel heats up. Well, at least that's what's claimed and I have never tested this (yet) though I have no reason to doubt it.

Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:45:40 PM EDT
OK im definately a newbie with AR's, so please bare with me and no I'm not a troll. I have been trying to figure out what barrel profile for a little while now, and no I havent purchased one yet, but I am very soon. What is the gov't profile? Who offers this barrel in a complete rifle - I'm not ready to tackle a home-grown build yet. I like the bushmaster rifles, but havent seen anything other than the super lite, M4, and HBAR. I'm guessing that the Govt profile is somewhere between a superlite and HBAR is strength and weight, but without the M4 M203 cutouts and profile (just straight), is that correct? Is the Govt profile offered in a 16" barrel?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:04:30 PM EDT
Government profile is light under the handguards, heavier out past the gas port (FSB). I'll speak for Colt rifles since that's what I'm familiar with, others may talk about other brands. Colt LE6920 are light under the handguards, heavy out past the gas port (except for the M203 cutouts). The LE6721 is HBAR, meaning heavy under the handguards as well as towards the muzzle. The LE6520 is superlite (pencil) profile meaning thin barrel. Anyone want to clarify what I said, please do so. Lightweight barrels do not come without disadvantages as we all know.

You are correct that the Govt profile is in between an HBAR and superlite (pencil thin) profile, and yes you can get the Govt profile in a 16" barrel. If you have a barrel you like that is not the correct profile, you can always have it turned down by ADCO. I was a fan of HBAR until I got the ABS barrel which is like a superlite. Now I think I'm going to sell my HBAR uppers after experiencing what a light barrel feels like in terms of handling and ease of carry. Hopes this helps you out.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:05:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By boltcatch:
This topic comes up like once a week, and every time the "real men carry HBARs and gov't profiles are for sissies" crowd comes out from under their rocks.



I wouldn't quite say that, but I think the weight difference between an HBAR and Gov't is really pretty negligible all things considered. Isn't it less than a pound? Then again I am a big guy and my 20" HBAR is the 2nd lightest rifle I have. The only rifle I have that is lighter is a Savage Mark II in .22LR with a synthetic stock. I am pretty sure even my AK is heavier than my AR. All my other rifles are way heavier... Springfield M1A, M1 Garand, SKS and a bunch of military bolt actions... Soldiers lugged those around for a lot of years...
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:09:35 PM EDT
www.bushmaster.com/shopping/barrel-assemblies/

Here are pictures of different barrel contours.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:14:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
www.bushmaster.com/shopping/barrel-assemblies/

Here are pictures of different barrel contours.



Great link. Couldn't have said it better .
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:39:03 PM EDT
Thanks for the link, I saw the superlight, HBAR, M4, and dissipator barrels in 16" from bushy, but the govt profile in 20". I am looking for a complete rifle though.

At this point I think the Govt profile would be best. M4 is my second consideration.

What I am looking for is the following (complete rifle) (ABCDR)

16" Govt profile chrome lined barrel 4150 valadium preferably (1:9 or 1:7 = still not sure)
5.56mm chrome lined chamber
aluminum not carbon receiver
6 or 4 position collapsible stock
a2 FH (or at least threaded for change later)
bayonet lug (with or without = dont care)
A3 style (flat-top with removable carry handle or buis)
I dont care about ambidextrious anything or FF at this point.

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