Quoted: Recently talked to a friend who was an armorer in the USMC in the 70's.  He was talking about how many of the barrels would get bent from all sorts of abuse.  His could change up to 70 barrels a day for this reason alone.  I don't know if the shorter barrels are any less prone to this, but I would suspect they are.   For me, it's the HBAR all the way.   Compared to my milsurps, all AR's with 20" or shorter barrels are carbines to me and even with a HBAR still a lot lighter to carry around all day.   Even the K98a Mauser used in WWII was considered a carbine by some old soldiers who shouldered the original WWI model with it's 29" barrel.

I'm suprised no one has called BS on this yet.

70 bent barrels a day?

350 a week?

1,400 a month?

Really, a Brigade's worth of bent barrels a month?

A shitstorm like that would ratchett all the way up to Congress.

******

Here's my anectdotal evidence: four years in the Marines ('83-'87), NOT ONE bent barrel ever seen...

NOT EVEN at Pendleton when the jeep-driving WM wiped out a hasty stack of A1s...

Broken plactic only.

*****

Go with the Govenment profile. Then send it off to have the thick part in front of the front sight base milled down to .600".

Or just buy a Lightweight.

I've got a Bushy 16" HBAR and I was thinking of either getting it turned down to a Govt. profile or just getting a new 16" Govt profile barrel with the "F" stamped FSB.


What is the weight difference between a 16" HBAR and a 16" Govt. profile??

how much weight am I going to save??

Heres one to consider. Get a fluted HBAR instead of the goverment profile. It has the advantages of the HBAR with the lighter weight of the government profile with the added benefit of increased heat dissipation.

what do you want the rifle to do?

here is my take on the barrel dilema,

if you plan on building a scope and bipod rifle, go heavy.  i have premium heavy stainless steel barrels (white oak, wilson) on rifles for precision work in 16", 18" and 20". mostly beacause they are bipod guns and not something i plan on humping around with. althought the 16 hbar is not bad with a acog and rail.

if its going to be street fighter weapon (with an aimpoint/eotech/iron site) gun, then a gov/skinny is perfect. your targets are inside 100yards and any skinny barrel will shoot minute of person at that range.

i guess full auto could change that equation though.

street fighter,,


counter sniper,,

Quoted: Hbars weed out the mall ninjas tinypic.com/im0z61.jpg

Amen! I love my Hbars....

Quoted: I wouldn't quite say that, but I think the weight difference between an HBAR and Gov't is really pretty negligible all things considered.  Isn't it less than a pound?  Then again I am a big guy and my 20" HBAR is the 2nd lightest rifle I have.

I'm a big guy too, and NO, the weight difference isn't negligible.


Try taking a course where you are holding a rifle at low ready all day and see if you notice a difference.


Ultimately, 1lb less barrel is 1lb more ammo - probably more, since ammo load isn't cantilevered out in front of you.


For all you Hbar He-Men, why not go a bull barrel then?   Hump a 38lb .50 cal all day.  

Quoted: The first AR I bought was with an HBAR. Never again...  M4/Govt/Pencil... anything but HBAR. - BG

Ditto...and I had that rectified when I sent the upper in to ADCO for a ban-expiration exorcism.

Quoted: I'm a big guy too, and NO, the weight difference isn't negligible. Try taking a course where you are holding a rifle at low ready all day and see if you notice a difference. Ultimately, 1lb less barrel is 1lb more ammo - probably more, since ammo load isn't cantilevered out in front of you. For all you Hbar He-Men, why not go a bull barrel then?   Hump a 38lb .50 cal all day.

+1

His record was 70 barrels in one all nighter.  Guy has a very good attitude about work.  Beside, only combo Jarhead/Dead Head I know.  

I have seen a handful of barrels destroyed in my time in the Marine Corps, one was pinched by the trails of a M198 howitzer, the flash suppressor was destroyed.  One was run over by a 7 ton the hand guards and the flash suppressor was destroyed.  One was destroyed by an in bore explosion, the whole receiver extension was destroyed.  A few have been destroyed by enemy action, but only direct strike of frag or bullets have damaged the barrel.

This gun will not be a dedicated bench gun.

If my plans pan out I will be spending time carrying it around varmint hunting and using it for gun games.

It will be a multi purpose weapon that will also spend time punching holes in paper at the bench.

Thanks for all the feedback, very informative.

Damn you guys, NOW I want a dedicated HBAR bench gun as well!

Quoted: This gun will not be a dedicated bench gun. If my plans pan out I will be spending time carrying it around varmint hunting and using it for gun games. It will be a multi purpose weapon that will also spend time punching holes in paper at the bench. Thanks for all the feedback, very informative. Damn you guys, NOW I want a dedicated HBAR bench gun as well!

Sounds like you may want to split the difference and get Denny's "Operator", a midlemgth, midweight barrel...

Quoted: Sounds like you may want to split the difference and get Denny's "Operator", a midlemgth, midweight barrel...

excellant advise,,,

Quoted: Quoted: Glad to see you out of HTF Spiff. Hbars weed out the mall ninjas tinypic.com/im0z61.jpg That is a carbine.... you mall ninja. Real men carry rifles.

Real men carry BARs, Garands, and Barrets...

Quoted: If you put any noticeable tension on a barrel, it will change the point of impact. Not because you are bending or flexing the barrel; but because you change how the barrel vibrates. Get your barrel zeroed and then rest the barrel on a block of wood (instead of resting your handguards on the block) and you will see a shift in zero. So an HBAR doesn't really offer any advantages here that I've noticed (and that was with the shorter and even stiffer 16" barrel). I ran a 16" HBAR for years and several classes and never had trouble with it, even with rails, flashlights, etc.; but it does start to get heavy when you add to it. The thing is you don't get any practical benefit over the gov't profile from the HBAR for the extra weight. A 16" HBAR weighs 2.7lbs. A 20" Gov't profile weighs 2.5lbs. On a 20" HBAR the barrel alone is going to weigh upwards of three pounds.

I thought that the vibration chanrge would also chnage your group size for a given load.

I love it!  All you weight-weenies are the same.

You're talking about saving a few ounces in barrel weight, then hanging 50 pounds of gadgets off the end.

Not to mention, there's probably an extra 50 pounds to lose in the old MRE housing group (beer belly).

Quoted: Heavy barrels are for machineguns and for shooting off the bench.

The HBAR is great off of a bipod on the M16A1 (poor man's LMG) on full (son's 2nd favorite full auto - Thomson still number 1 - for the history). For everything else the Gov profile is better.

For accuracy the HBAR is of course no longer in the running (funny what a few cases of ammo on full does to eliminate accuracy ;-).

Quoted: Quoted: I wouldn't quite say that, but I think the weight difference between an HBAR and Gov't is really pretty negligible all things considered.  Isn't it less than a pound?  Then again I am a big guy and my 20" HBAR is the 2nd lightest rifle I have.   I'm a big guy too, and NO, the weight difference isn't negligible. Try taking a course where you are holding a rifle at low ready all day and see if you notice a difference. Ultimately, 1lb less barrel is 1lb more ammo - probably more, since ammo load isn't cantilevered out in front of you. For all you Hbar He-Men, why not go a bull barrel then?   Hump a 38lb .50 cal all day.

I'm not really interested in taking "courses".  If I have to hump a rifle through the woods a lot I figure a good share of the time its going to be slung, and if so < 1lb is not going to matter.  If 1lb matters that much, I would just as soon leave 1lb of other junk behind and keep my HBAR.  As I've said before, soldiers carried a lot heavier rifles than my 20" HBAR for a lot of years.  My AR is the lightest center fire rifle I have, even with an HBAR.

Realistically for most people, most of our shooting is going to be at the range, hunting from a stand, or hunting where we can drive or ride in close enough we don't have to walk all day.   Given that, even a 24" bull barrel isn't going to be a problem for a big guy to handle.  I'm too old to be playing wannabe Rambo, and I'm not really all that worried about SHTF scenarios.    I guess I just don't see the super-ultra lightweight obsession, nor do I understand the mega-tactical mania...  But people should buy whatever they want or whatever fits their needs, I just don't see why people like to dump on HBARs so much, and I rarely ever see any HBAR fans dump on other barrel profiles.  I guess I am conservative and just don't go in for a lot of gee-whiz stuff.

Quoted: I just don't see why people like to dump on HBARs so much, and I rarely ever see any HBAR fans dump on other barrel profiles.

You obviously are having trouble reading this post.  BOTH sides are adamantly defending their *purchases*.  Some people refuse to look at the issue with an open mind, and just take it personally - like they have to defend what *they* bought.  

If you like your HBAR - great.  The bottom line, is that both sides will make their arguments.... just those who believe in a lighter barrel profile for fighting are right.  

I thought the general consensus was to get both

Government profile is what I am getting this time.

I have one more lower and when the time comes it will get a HBAR upper.

I already have a RRA middy so the carbine angle is covered.

The choices are so many that I started this thread to help me decide what I should do.

The truth is I want a multipurpose 20" upper.  The government profile gives it the flexabilty of being light.

The bench gun will be more purpose built and set up.

1 pound of extra barrel is nothing compared to the 40 around my waist.