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Posted: 12/2/2005 5:47:37 AM EDT
Well, after reading the disappointing news from ASA regarding the M16A1 lowers, I got to wondering something.

Fulton Armory has this Legacy Vietnam-Era Rifle.

Does anyone know how accurate the lower receiver is on this rifle? And if the lower is available separately?
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:47:07 AM EDT
They use standard current style lowers.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 7:51:46 AM EDT


Thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 12/2/2005 3:35:29 PM EDT
If you look hard you should be able to find an SP1/lower at a reasonable price.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 9:11:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
If you look hard you should be able to find an SP1/lower at a reasonable price.



SP1s never came with an M16A1 (full fence) style lower AFAIK. I've posted the question here and searched the web until my fingers were sore. Colt may have made a few SP1 lowers from M16A1 lower forgings, but I cant find one. I can't even find anyone who's seen one.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 9:15:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Essayons:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
If you look hard you should be able to find an SP1/lower at a reasonable price.



SP1s never came with an M16A1 (full fence) style lower AFAIK. I've posted the question here and searched the web until my fingers were sore. Colt may have made a few SP1 lowers from M16A1 lower forgings, but I cant find one. I can't even find anyone who's seen one.



I am pretty sure he means the regular slab side SP1. It isn't perfect for your needs, but it looks more retro than an A2 style.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 9:32:19 AM EDT
If you can live with used and can find one, Sendra lowers were A1.

Link Posted: 12/3/2005 9:36:49 AM EDT
Along with Sendra, some early PWA SGW and early Eagle Arms had A1 lowers too. The only problem was they were usually black and very mismatched from the Colt grey upper that you'd mate it with. But I 've heard that Norrels Moly Resin was the magical answer to fix that.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 5:53:21 PM EDT
What's the deal with that ASA deal anyway? All of a sudden it just disappeared.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:41:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tat2steve:
What's the deal with that ASA deal anyway? All of a sudden it just disappeared.



What he ended up showing us was a "sorta-kinda" early lower, and most of us who care enough about authenic appearance to not want to use current style lowers were sure not going to settle for "sorta-kinda".

I, and a number of others who had signed up for the waiting list, withdrew our names. I had already successfully converted a Rock River lower to A1 dimensions; but the work involved was such a hassle that I would have been more than happy to get an earlier XM16 type lower. What he was showing as his early style was so non spec appearing that I just said the heck w/it, and am currently doing over a DPMS lower. Started w/the front wall, have done the side, and am in the middle of the rear ring mods. It's as big a hassle as was the A1 clone, but at least I'll have an accurate appearing lower to put under the Air Force surp upper at my house.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:53:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Beowulf:
If you can live with used and can find one, Sendra lowers were A1.

pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL176/1171244/2214857/46812260.jpg



Yep. This is my Sendra.


Link Posted: 12/3/2005 6:56:42 PM EDT
I would personally settle for a quality cast lower made to A1 dimensions. Why won't somebody make one of these?
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 7:03:07 PM EDT
I've got a DPMS that was made to A1 spec. Came from the factory that way, around 99-00.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 7:21:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cjk1:
I would personally settle for a quality cast lower made to A1 dimensions. Why won't somebody make one of these?



Cast parts are unacceptable in a combat weapon.
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 7:29:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By cjk1:
I would personally settle for a quality cast lower made to A1 dimensions. Why won't somebody make one of these?



Cast parts are unacceptable in a combat weapon.



Even if that is true (and I'm not convinced), if you really want a "combat weapon" then I believe that you really should get something with the current designs. There is a purpose for an early style M16 lookalike AR15 rifle -- nostalgia. But you have to figure that they wouldn't have changed the design to the newer A1, A2, A3, etc. if they weren't improvements. And for nostalgia purposes, looks may be more important to a lot of people than absolute replication of the operational parameters of the original, I think that is what cjk1 is saying.
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 1:49:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By cjk1:
I would personally settle for a quality cast lower made to A1 dimensions. Why won't somebody make one of these?



Cast parts are unacceptable in a combat weapon.




Cast parts are only a problem if they are substituted as a cost savings for forged or barstock parts.

Of course, a cast AR lower fits that description
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 4:41:30 AM EDT
Shamayim,
Yea I was signed up for one of his receivers also and was begining to wonder if it was ever going to happen. I just barely caught the end of a few of the posts concerning authenticity of his receivers and then they were "locked", I guess by the Mods. I recall reading something about the receivers weren't really from ASA but from that guy Brad. Was there a backdoor deal going on?
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 6:35:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tat2steve:
Shamayim,
Yea I was signed up for one of his receivers also and was begining to wonder if it was ever going to happen. I just barely caught the end of a few of the posts concerning authenticity of his receivers and then they were "locked", I guess by the Mods. I recall reading something about the receivers weren't really from ASA but from that guy Brad. Was there a backdoor deal going on?



I really have no idea of what the ins and outs of the deal were. I've always had a lot of respect for Colt 653's knowledge of the various permutations of the AR. His posts w/info have been helpful to me.

All I can say w/certainty is that I didn't care for what he posted for pics of the proposed early types, so I withdrew my name from his list. Beyond that, I'm totally ignorant.
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 7:26:23 AM EDT
Well, I hope things get sorted out for everyones sake, I could sure use a couple of correct early style receivers.
Thanks,
Later
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 7:31:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shamayim:

Originally Posted By tat2steve:
Shamayim,
Yea I was signed up for one of his receivers also and was begining to wonder if it was ever going to happen. I just barely caught the end of a few of the posts concerning authenticity of his receivers and then they were "locked", I guess by the Mods. I recall reading something about the receivers weren't really from ASA but from that guy Brad. Was there a backdoor deal going on?



I really have no idea of what the ins and outs of the deal were. I've always had a lot of respect for Colt 653's knowledge of the various permutations of the AR. His posts w/info have been helpful to me.

All I can say w/certainty is that I didn't care for what he posted for pics of the proposed early types, so I withdrew my name from his list. Beyond that, I'm totally ignorant.



If I remember right, he did say they were being sent back to the machinist to be modified closer to XM16E1 specs, but then it got locked, so he wasn't able to elaborate...
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 9:14:41 AM EDT
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=33&t=148750

Colt-653 replied to one of my emails. FWIW he said he would be posting an update soon. (He posted once or twice in the linked thread).

IIRC, the lowers are undergoing more machining in WA (Gig Harbor IIRC). That kind of reinforces the suspicion based on the photos that they were modified A2 forgings and not A1 forgings.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 10:16:46 AM EDT
The fact that ASA went out of business probably didn't help the project either, did it?


Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:18:05 AM EDT
Certainly not, but IMO the whole project was only nominally ASA's in the first place. That appears to be the reason (or one of the reasons) the original thread got locked. We were supposed to pay an FFL other than ASA who was not registered with the board (according to one of the Mod posts in the original thread).
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:23:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 7:57:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
there are a lot of A1 lowers floating around folks, Essential Arms, DPMS, older OAIs, PWA, hell anyone around in the mid 80s





??????
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 7:40:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
there are a lot of A1 lowers floating around folks, Essential Arms, DPMS, older OAIs, PWA, hell anyone around in the mid 80s



Yes, but they are hard to find (I've had a WTB in the EE and have been checking it at least once a week for a few months) and expensive ($400+ for a preban lower due to the demand in ban states).
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 8:31:54 AM EDT
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