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Posted: 11/7/2005 7:39:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 7:52:32 AM EDT by Frens]
I went to my favourite gun store today and I took some pics of this German Made AR15. :)
It's a midlenght carabine (16'' barrel) with the A2 fixed stock.
the price of this carabine is simply crazy: 2700€.
it didn't impressed me at all and I wouldn't pay 2700€ for this rifle: the german stainless steel barrel must be great, but everything else can't be compared to a Colt, Bushmaster or Armalite.
the only things made in Germany are the barrel and the receivers. the receiver are machined very well and they have a nice quite shiny black finish, a lot different from a milspec rifle but still nice. the finish on the barrel was very bad under the front sight base as you can see in the pic below. the flash suppressor was an A1 bird cage with the holes all around. the bolt and the bolt carrier were unmarked. the heat shield under the handguards were badly mounted. also some of the screws/pins/springs were rusting. the 5 round mag with the green follower was made by Bushmaster.












Frens
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 7:42:10 AM EDT
Your links are broken
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 7:48:07 AM EDT
I wouldn’t pay more then $800.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 7:52:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I wouldn’t pay more then $800.



ARs are expensive (and rare) here in Italy; if a Colt MT6400C costs about 2600€ and a Colt Match Target 20" costs about 2000€, then I wouldn't pay more than 1600 for that Oberland.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 7:55:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:04:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2005 8:04:32 AM EDT by Hylton]

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
Great pics !


I looks like the receivers might be machined from stock instead of forgings ?




Or Castings
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:08:06 AM EDT
Are regular citizens allowed to buy such weapons in Italy?

I always thought it was nearly impossible for the population to bear arms in Europe with the exception of a shotgun etc for hunting.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:08:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2005 8:09:29 AM EDT by Wackypeacock]

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
Great pics !


I looks like the receivers might be machined from stock instead of forgings ?




Or Castings




Nope. They are machined from billet. I believe it's 7075T6.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:12:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
Great pics !


I looks like the receivers might be machined from stock instead of forgings ?




Or Castings



I have heard here before that they are machined from bar stock.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:12:56 AM EDT
i wonder what grenade launcher they plan on using with that cutout in a midlength barrel... must be metric...

j/k
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:13:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Frens:

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I wouldn’t pay more then $800.



ARs are expensive (and rare) here in Italy; if a Colt MT6400C costs about 2600€ and a Colt Match Target 20" costs about 2000€, then I wouldn't pay more than 1600 for that Oberland.



Yeah but I'd bet that you can get your hands on some firearms over there that we can only drool about here in the US...
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:17:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sogsifu:
Are regular citizens allowed to buy such weapons in Italy?

I always thought it was nearly impossible for the population to bear arms in Europe with the exception of a shotgun etc for hunting.



yes we can :)



we can't have sound suppressor or grenade launcher, semiautomatic rifles' mags must have only 10 rounds and the 9x19 is the only caliber still banned (we have to use 9x21). and from 1975 we can't own full auto guns.

Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:17:19 AM EDT
Then again I doubt its junk coming from Germany, if its one thing Germany is known for its quality firearms.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:18:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:26:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:

(the M203 releif cut on the mid barrel is interesting ?)




I like it.................
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:29:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2005 8:31:43 AM EDT by BravoCompanyUSA]
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:31:57 AM EDT
IIRC Cato has an Oberland M4gery... I would like to know if his carabine is like this
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:33:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Frens:

Originally Posted By sogsifu:
Are regular citizens allowed to buy such weapons in Italy?

I always thought it was nearly impossible for the population to bear arms in Europe with the exception of a shotgun etc for hunting.



yes we can :)



we can't have sound suppressor or grenade launcher, semiautomatic rifles' mags must have only 10 rounds and the 9x19 is the only caliber still banned (we have to use 9x21). and from 1975 we can't own full auto guns.





You live in Italy and don’t own a Beretta? Are you insane?
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:48:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2005 8:49:14 AM EDT by Stottman]

Originally Posted By Frens:

Originally Posted By sogsifu:
Are regular citizens allowed to buy such weapons in Italy?

I always thought it was nearly impossible for the population to bear arms in Europe with the exception of a shotgun etc for hunting.



yes we can :)



we can't have sound suppressor or grenade launcher, semiautomatic rifles' mags must have only 10 rounds and the 9x19 is the only caliber still banned (we have to use 9x21). and from 1975 we can't own full auto guns.




In Germany, people can own better stuff in the US.. Just a major PITA to get it. There are no SBR laws, and some MGs can be converted to semi only and sold.

The Oberland guns were originally made after 9-11.. The US State department stopped the export of AR-15 types for the civilian market for awhile.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 10:19:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:
Then again I doubt its junk coming from Germany, if its one thing Germany is known for its quality firearms.



Forgings are superior to machined stock.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 2:49:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2005 2:52:11 PM EDT by j3_]
Lower parts look like Armalite parts. They are the only ones I have seen selling a bolt catch made the way that one is.

I have never owned a mid-length. Do all of the mid lenght handguards use a triangle shaped handguard cap like the 20" ones do?
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 2:56:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:
Then again I doubt its junk coming from Germany, if its one thing Germany is known for its quality firearms.



That and invading France....
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 3:14:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By j3_:
Do all of the mid lenght handguards use a triangle shaped handguard cap like the 20" ones do?



As far as I know, yes, but it can be easily changed to a round hanguard cap if that's what you want. take the flash hider off, tap out the 2 pins under the front sight base, and pull the base off. Take the cap off and put new one on. Assemble in reverse. just don't expect to put the standard handguards back on...
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 3:18:01 PM EDT
I have an Armalite AR10 A2 upper that is a midlength with an M203 bbl. I suppose it is a bit of an oddball though.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 3:22:19 PM EDT
Nice machine work on the receivers (upper and lower).....Simply awesome.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:17:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2005 12:40:53 AM EDT by Cato]
My experience has been so-so. They really improved quality control, dumped
their poorly heated stainless bolt catch parts and are now using Armalite bolt
& trigger parts instead of DPMS (which I always hated to see in a 2700,- USD
rifle). And one has to thank them and the importer, Seidler, that they made a
product available to Austrian civilians which was a big no-no a few years ago.
So, no doubt, Oberland Arms produces nice rifles for sport shooters, but people
in Austria are still allowed and like to do combat shooting. Some friends and I
experienced some horrible jams with hot Hirtenberger surplus ammo. Even with
the chamber reamed to 5.56 Wylde and polished, one 16" carbine won't run with
it.
Concerning the M4/"M5" models- we have some very competent guys here
on record saying that thin stainless barrels won't shot well and that a cutout
in it is an invitation to structural failure. Moreover the teflon finish scratches
easily. IMHO there is no sense in not offering chrome lined barrels for the
M4/"M5", just because its much easier for OA to get Walther barrels.
I am also not convinced that the machined receivers are really an improvment,
which are worth the money. If you can get Colt in Italy, my choice would be clear.
But then I am no high precision shooter...
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 8:52:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2005 8:54:08 PM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By misterjg:
Nice machine work on the receivers (upper and lower).....Simply awesome.



I wouldn't use the term "awesome" to decribe this. It is inferior to American ARs.

Sadly, it is one of few options in Europe.
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 9:30:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2005 9:49:59 PM EDT by DeeJay574]

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By misterjg:
Nice machine work on the receivers (upper and lower).....Simply awesome.



I wouldn't use the term "awesome" to decribe this. It is inferior to American ARs.

Sadly, it is one of few options in Europe.



Maybe it´s inferior to a tier one AR-15 like a Colt or a FN but not to the "ordinary" other brands like Armalite, DPMS others.

Yes, these weapons are really, really expensive. But that´s a problem here in Europe, because the US government won´t sell these "dangerously" weapons since the 9-11 and so there is no real competition on the European market.
Otherwise here in Germany you are not allowed to buy a military looking gun like an AR-15 that has been manufactured on the same assembly-line like the weapons that goes to the Army etc. These weapons are called "War weapons" and are a no-no here. So you are only allowed to buy an AR-15 that has been manufactured especially for the civilian market on a "civilian" assembly-line.

Another option in Europe is a "Sabre Defense" AR-15. These SD are manufactured in the United Kingdom and are a little bit cheaper. But on the Sabres you get only a junk carry handle from China and a roughly finish. Also you can´t get a chrome lined barrell, only a chrome-moly barrell.

So i went with an Oberland. Yes, it´s more expensive, but you get a very, very accurate SS barrell, a nice finish, a very good customer service and it´s made in Germany.

But don´t compare the prices for such an european AR like you do this for your USA made AR.
It´s a totally different thing.
Here in Germany the shooting sport is a really expensive sport, because only a few people go to shooting ranges and so you are a individualist and you pay the higher price for that....
Link Posted: 11/8/2005 3:49:34 AM EDT
the midlength m4 profile barrel looks kinda cool.
Link Posted: 11/8/2005 5:02:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DeeJay574:
But don´t compare the prices for such an european AR like you do this for your USA made AR.
It´s a totally different thing.
Here in Germany the shooting sport is a really expensive sport, because only a few people go to shooting ranges and so you are a individualist and you pay the higher price for that....



Yes, its all relative.. Minimum wage is something like $13 an hour.

The cheapest AK sold in Germany still runs $750-800. Thats for the same rifle that sells for $250 in the US.
Link Posted: 11/8/2005 7:20:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/18/2005 3:15:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DeeJay574:

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By misterjg:
Nice machine work on the receivers (upper and lower).....Simply awesome.



I wouldn't use the term "awesome" to decribe this. It is inferior to American ARs.

Sadly, it is one of few options in Europe.



Maybe it´s inferior to a tier one AR-15 like a Colt or a FN but not to the "ordinary" other brands like Armalite, DPMS others.

Yes, these weapons are really, really expensive. But that´s a problem here in Europe, because the US government won´t sell these "dangerously" weapons since the 9-11 and so there is no real competition on the European market.
Otherwise here in Germany you are not allowed to buy a military looking gun like an AR-15 that has been manufactured on the same assembly-line like the weapons that goes to the Army etc. These weapons are called "War weapons" and are a no-no here. So you are only allowed to buy an AR-15 that has been manufactured especially for the civilian market on a "civilian" assembly-line.

Another option in Europe is a "Sabre Defense" AR-15. These SD are manufactured in the United Kingdom and are a little bit cheaper. But on the Sabres you get only a junk carry handle from China and a roughly finish. Also you can´t get a chrome lined barrell, only a chrome-moly barrell.

So i went with an Oberland. Yes, it´s more expensive, but you get a very, very accurate SS barrell, a nice finish, a very good customer service and it´s made in Germany. heIt´s a totally different thing.
Here in Germany the shooting sport is a really expensive sport, because only a few people go to shooting ranges and so you are a individualist and you pay the higher price for that....



The European Sabre Defence is the same company as Sabre Defence in the U.S. They manufacture AR-15s in both the USA and the U.K. From what I've seen of their rifles (US or UK) they are very good quality. I don't believe they use "junk carry handles from China". And, Yes, you can now get a chrome-lined barrel from them in the Europe. Sabre makes just about all the major components themselves - barrels, uppers, lowers, bolts and carriers. Its good stuff. You should take another look. Pick up a copy of the recent Visier AR-15 Special Issue magazine that compares the Sabre's to the Oberlands. I don't know much about Oberland Arms, but I think their barrels are made by Walther Lothar, which are known for good quality. Sabre is a major supplier of barrels to the U.S. military. They make Mil-Spec barrels and use top-quality chrome-moly vanadium steel.
Link Posted: 11/18/2005 3:38:34 PM EDT
The SDI sold in Europe and US are different.
In the US they are pretty nice rifles (made in the US IIRC) but in Europe I got to try few of them and was not impressed with the overall quality, those ones are made in UK I think.
Link Posted: 11/19/2005 12:17:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sogsifu:
Are regular citizens allowed to buy such weapons in Italy?

I always thought it was nearly impossible for the population to bear arms in Europe with the exception of a shotgun etc for hunting.



You are mistaken. The laws vary a lot from country to country. For example, in Finland we can buy suppressors off the shelf without paperwork. Top of the line quick-detach suppressors for ARs cost less than 400 dollars (Finnish manufactured stuff, soon available in the US through Sabre Defence if I'm not mistaken). Lower receivers are not considered firearm parts, you can buy as many as you like without any paperwork what so ever. Only barrels and bolts require permits. We have no SBR laws, although some police deparments are reluctant to issue permits for short barreled shotguns and rifles. I never had a problem with mine. Owning full-auto firearms is legal if you are a registered collector.

All in all, I think our gun laws are pretty functional. I'm afraid however that it's only a matter of time until some asshat decides to take our priviledges away. I'm almost certain that the European Union will make a union wide law at some point that will ruin it for us all. Then it's time to apply for a Green Card.
Link Posted: 11/19/2005 12:48:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Manx:
I don't believe they use "junk carry handles from China".



Oh, you better believe that. I´ve seen on on Finnish guys Sabre. Maybe Sabre is using them because they think "they are going to put optics on the rail anyway".
That´s very bad thinking in my opinion..

Pics of carry handle can be found here


Originally Posted By sogsifu:
Are regular citizens allowed to buy such weapons in Italy Finland?

I always thought it was nearly impossible for the population to bear arms in Europe with the exception of a shotgun etc for hunting.



You can see on that forum we have some rights left here, too.
MN
Link Posted: 11/19/2005 12:52:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2005 1:04:29 AM EDT by Hired_Gun]

Originally Posted By DeeJay574:

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By misterjg:
Nice machine work on the receivers (upper and lower).....Simply awesome.



I wouldn't use the term "awesome" to decribe this. It is inferior to American ARs.

Sadly, it is one of few options in Europe.



Maybe it´s inferior to a tier one AR-15 like a Colt or a FN but not to the "ordinary" other brands like Armalite, DPMS others.

Yes, these weapons are really, really expensive. But that´s a problem here in Europe, because the US government won´t sell these "dangerously" weapons since the 9-11 and so there is no real competition on the European market.
Otherwise here in Germany you are not allowed to buy a military looking gun like an AR-15 that has been manufactured on the same assembly-line like the weapons that goes to the Army etc. These weapons are called "War weapons" and are a no-no here. So you are only allowed to buy an AR-15 that has been manufactured especially for the civilian market on a "civilian" assembly-line.

Another option in Europe is a "Sabre Defense" AR-15. These SD are manufactured in the United Kingdom and are a little bit cheaper. But on the Sabres you get only a junk carry handle from China and a roughly finish. Also you can´t get a chrome lined barrell, only a chrome-moly barrell.

So i went with an Oberland. Yes, it´s more expensive, but you get a very, very accurate SS barrell, a nice finish, a very good customer service and it´s made in Germany.

But don´t compare the prices for such an european AR like you do this for your USA made AR.
It´s a totally different thing.
Here in Germany the shooting sport is a really expensive sport, because only a few people go to shooting ranges and so you are a individualist and you pay the higher price for that....



That is by far the worst description of a Sabre product I have ever heard to the point of being irresponsible.

All Sabres I have seen had Cardinal forge carry handles, and sabre uses Chrome Moly Vanadium Alloy steel in their barrels, which is the same type of steel used in their
50 cal., M60, and machine gun barrels which sabre provides to the USA military. Chrome lining is an option as well. The finish is also beautiful. Deep black, even, durable…etc

They are a top notch company with an extremely well built product. I seriously doubt Sabre builds a great product for the USA and decides to build shit for Europe

Link Posted: 11/19/2005 3:33:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2005 3:42:05 AM EDT by Humminbird]

Originally Posted By Hired_Gun:
That is by far the worst description of a Sabre product I have ever heard to the point of being irresponsible.

All Sabres I have seen had Cardinal forge carry handles, and sabre uses Chrome Moly Vanadium Alloy steel in their barrels, which is the same type of steel used in their
50 cal., M60, and machine gun barrels which sabre provides to the USA military. Chrome lining is an option as well. The finish is also beautiful. Deep black, even, durable…etc

They are a top notch company with an extremely well built product. I seriously doubt Sabre builds a great product for the USA and decides to build shit for Europe




Hey, how many Sabre Defence products have you bought in Europe??? I've seen one and the carry handle is absolute crap. I'm sorry, but that carry handle never saw Cardinal Forge or any other forge for that matter, it is most certainly cast.

Now I don't know why it is this way, it may be that some exporter decided to make a few extra euros and sold the rifle with an inferior carry handle, I don't know. Had it been my Sabre I would've been really pissed and called them for an explanation. But since it's not mine and I have no intention to order a Sabre, I haven't bothered to call them up. I will buy US made ARs, thank you very much.
Link Posted: 11/19/2005 3:39:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hired_Gun:

Originally Posted By DeeJay574:

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By misterjg:
Nice machine work on the receivers (upper and lower).....Simply awesome.



I wouldn't use the term "awesome" to decribe this. It is inferior to American ARs.

Sadly, it is one of few options in Europe.



Maybe it´s inferior to a tier one AR-15 like a Colt or a FN but not to the "ordinary" other brands like Armalite, DPMS others.

Yes, these weapons are really, really expensive. But that´s a problem here in Europe, because the US government won´t sell these "dangerously" weapons since the 9-11 and so there is no real competition on the European market.
Otherwise here in Germany you are not allowed to buy a military looking gun like an AR-15 that has been manufactured on the same assembly-line like the weapons that goes to the Army etc. These weapons are called "War weapons" and are a no-no here. So you are only allowed to buy an AR-15 that has been manufactured especially for the civilian market on a "civilian" assembly-line.

Another option in Europe is a "Sabre Defense" AR-15. These SD are manufactured in the United Kingdom and are a little bit cheaper. But on the Sabres you get only a junk carry handle from China and a roughly finish. Also you can´t get a chrome lined barrell, only a chrome-moly barrell.

So i went with an Oberland. Yes, it´s more expensive, but you get a very, very accurate SS barrell, a nice finish, a very good customer service and it´s made in Germany.

But don´t compare the prices for such an european AR like you do this for your USA made AR.
It´s a totally different thing.
Here in Germany the shooting sport is a really expensive sport, because only a few people go to shooting ranges and so you are a individualist and you pay the higher price for that....



That is by far the worst description of a Sabre product I have ever heard to the point of being irresponsible.

All Sabres I have seen had Cardinal forge carry handles, and sabre uses Chrome Moly Vanadium Alloy steel in their barrels, which is the same type of steel used in their
50 cal., M60, and machine gun barrels which sabre provides to the USA military. Chrome lining is an option as well. The finish is also beautiful. Deep black, even, durable…etc

They are a top notch company with an extremely well built product. I seriously doubt Sabre builds a great product for the USA and decides to build shit for Europe




+1

You are 100% correct. Every single Sabre product I have ever seen was absolutely perfect. M4arc's Sabre M4 upper and midlength barrel are absolutely top of line.
Link Posted: 11/19/2005 3:43:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2005 3:44:36 AM EDT by Humminbird]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
+1

You are 100% correct. Every single Sabre product I have ever seen was absolutely perfect. M4arc's Sabre M4 upper and midlength barrel are absolutely top of line.



Do you ever read what others post? Please tell us how many Sabre products you have seen/bought inside Europe? Have you noticed that in Sabre's web catalogue it reads "For US market only, not for Export"?
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 6:47:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Humminbird:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
+1

You are 100% correct. Every single Sabre product I have ever seen was absolutely perfect. M4arc's Sabre M4 upper and midlength barrel are absolutely top of line.



Do you ever read what others post? how


The Sabre catalogue reads "for US market only. Not for Export" probably because of State Department export rules. Besides Sabre manufactures in the U.K. and it is much easier for them to export around Europe from the U.K. BTW- I've been to both Sabre factories (US and UK) and I never saw a carry handle like the one in the link provided by Hummingbird. I've also seen their rifles at IWA and Small Arms Symposium at Shrivenham and I've shot with their rifles at Bisley. I also own one in the States. They make top quality kit. I that think maybe some unscrupulous dealer somewhere along the line made a switch on the carry handle. Just a thought. Did you contact Sabre about it? From the rest of the pictures, the weapon looks pretty good. Did you have any other problems with the rifle?
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 7:15:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2005 7:25:42 AM EDT by Humminbird]
The link isn't mine, nor is the rifle. Like I posted above, had it been my rifle I'd been pissed and called them up. But since it's not mine and I have no intention to buy their product, I didn't do a thing about it. Yes, it is very possible that the rifle didn't leave the factory with that carry handle. I don't know how the guy got his, but I believe it wasn't a private import but rather through a Finnish importer. Many possibilities for things to go wrong there. When I order a rifle it will be a private import from a US manufacturer whose product I trust. Sabre isn't on that short list yet, but that may change if I start seeing more products from them and if they really are on par with the top names in the game.

BTW, I can get a Sabre Defence product through any dealer with an export license if I want to, and there is simply nothing that text in the catalogue can do about it. State Department will issue export papers for Sabre products like they have been for other AR makers for a long time. I only pointed out the text since I figured it might indicate that Sabre's export sales would normally go though their UK factory, thus making it possible that there really is a different product for the European market. I wouldn't know.
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 11:03:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2005 11:06:36 AM EDT by pizzigr1]
Well, here in Italy the possibility to have AR15 type rifles is not an issue, whereas the availability of them IS an issue.
Most AR15 styles and configurations are allowed, with the limit on some rifles of 5 and some other 10 round magazines, and some other pretty confusing detail, like not being able to change the upper on a rifle to switch from, say, a 16" to a 20": if it is registered as a 16", it has to stay a 16"... if you want a 20" upeer you have to buy another rifle.

AR15's, though, simply are not on sale, no gun shop has them and the few around have a very, VERY steep price tag...

The point is the US State Dept will not allow export on a commercial license, but will allow a private export, on a DSP83 end user certificate, as I did for my slightly customized Olympic ML2 rifle.
Heck, last I checked, I would have been granted the export of a SR25 RAS match rifle, almost a dead ringer for the Mk11Mod0, had I not had problems of dough....
It took me almost a year, but I did manage to get what I wanted, without having to purchase the OA crap.
also consider I am no mil or LE, just a private citizen.

You would be very surprised what we are allowed here in italy... SIG 550 (actually a version of it that looks a lot like the Blue Star but black), Steyr AUG in all configurations, including shorties and A3's, SPAS 12 and 15 which are now collector's items in US, and big bore guns like 338 Lapua and 408 Cheytac... granted, Germany's got the lead now, and Finland is essentially where everybody would like to be, Ar15-wise, in Europe....
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 11:20:50 AM EDT
Pics are no good.
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 11:21:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Knife_Sniper:
Your links are broken



Yup.
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 11:30:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pizzigr1:
Well, here in Italy the possibility to have AR15 type rifles is not an issue, whereas the availability of them IS an issue.
Most AR15 styles and configurations are allowed, with the limit on some rifles of 5 and some other 10 round magazines, and some other pretty confusing detail, like not being able to change the upper on a rifle to switch from, say, a 16" to a 20": if it is registered as a 16", it has to stay a 16"... if you want a 20" upeer you have to buy another rifle.

AR15's, though, simply are not on sale, no gun shop has them and the few around have a very, VERY steep price tag...

The point is the US State Dept will not allow export on a commercial license, but will allow a private export, on a DSP83 end user certificate, as I did for my slightly customized Olympic ML2 rifle.
Heck, last I checked, I would have been granted the export of a SR25 RAS match rifle, almost a dead ringer for the Mk11Mod0, had I not had problems of dough....
It took me almost a year, but I did manage to get what I wanted, without having to purchase the OA crap.
also consider I am no mil or LE, just a private citizen.

You would be very surprised what we are allowed here in italy... SIG 550 (actually a version of it that looks a lot like the Blue Star but black), Steyr AUG in all configurations, including shorties and A3's, SPAS 12 and 15 which are now collector's items in US, and big bore guns like 338 Lapua and 408 Cheytac... granted, Germany's got the lead now, and Finland is essentially where everybody would like to be, Ar15-wise, in Europe....



wait a second, from this and other things I have been reading, it seems like Europe is finally making a rebound from its idiotic gun laws. Would you say this is an accurate analysis?
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 12:11:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2005 12:13:07 PM EDT by Humminbird]

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By pizzigr1:
Well, here in Italy the possibility to have AR15 type rifles is not an issue, whereas the availability of them IS an issue.
Most AR15 styles and configurations are allowed, with the limit on some rifles of 5 and some other 10 round magazines, and some other pretty confusing detail, like not being able to change the upper on a rifle to switch from, say, a 16" to a 20": if it is registered as a 16", it has to stay a 16"... if you want a 20" upeer you have to buy another rifle.

AR15's, though, simply are not on sale, no gun shop has them and the few around have a very, VERY steep price tag...

The point is the US State Dept will not allow export on a commercial license, but will allow a private export, on a DSP83 end user certificate, as I did for my slightly customized Olympic ML2 rifle.
Heck, last I checked, I would have been granted the export of a SR25 RAS match rifle, almost a dead ringer for the Mk11Mod0, had I not had problems of dough....
It took me almost a year, but I did manage to get what I wanted, without having to purchase the OA crap.
also consider I am no mil or LE, just a private citizen.

You would be very surprised what we are allowed here in italy... SIG 550 (actually a version of it that looks a lot like the Blue Star but black), Steyr AUG in all configurations, including shorties and A3's, SPAS 12 and 15 which are now collector's items in US, and big bore guns like 338 Lapua and 408 Cheytac... granted, Germany's got the lead now, and Finland is essentially where everybody would like to be, Ar15-wise, in Europe....



wait a second, from this and other things I have been reading, it seems like Europe is finally making a rebound from its idiotic gun laws. Would you say this is an accurate analysis?



In Finland the gun laws have never been tighter than this, and as you can see we are quite well off. I don't know what to tell you other than I believe UK is the only place in Europe where things are truly fucked up. In other places things are pretty good and have been for a very long time as far as I know. I'm not sure why Americans always seem to think that Europe is some kind of anti-gunners paradise. Cuz it ain't.

Link Posted: 11/20/2005 4:18:00 PM EDT
I beg to differ! True, after paperwork for which you get a class III license
in the USA, we now are allowed to own "assault rifles"- but it is like being
an endangered species here- always on the edge of becoming extinct.
If one guy goes on a shooting rampant ala Dunblade, shooters here could
be history tomorrow. Almost in every central European country the
socialdemocrats and green party are for a total ban of handguns &
semi auto rifles as well as combat shooting or owning a gun for defense.
And our carry laws SUCK BIG TIME!!
Link Posted: 11/20/2005 7:34:35 PM EDT
get the pics back up please.

The last OA rifle I saw (probably Cato's) showed the unique lower parts OA uses. They are indeed neat looking but someone linked to the entire parts kit and it was VERY expensive!
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 4:53:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:
wait a second, from this and other things I have been reading, it seems like Europe is finally making a rebound from its idiotic gun laws. Would you say this is an accurate analysis?



Well, actually Italy had dark times and the last 10 years have been a Renaissance for gun owners, and the AR type weapon community.

the point is that Italy is going to have a lot of problems if the lefties win next year, there's a Green Party that wants to ban hunting and the Ultralefties (Rifondazione Comunista) would love to ban private property of any firearm...

but in the while, we play until it is allowed....

ciao

ps I registered in USA cause I live in Boston when I am stateside. Gun laws in MA are actually worse, in some respect, to Italy. Food for thought...
Link Posted: 11/21/2005 8:44:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pizzigr1:

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:
wait a second, from this and other things I have been reading, it seems like Europe is finally making a rebound from its idiotic gun laws. Would you say this is an accurate analysis?



Well, actually Italy had dark times and the last 10 years have been a Renaissance for gun owners, and the AR type weapon community.

the point is that Italy is going to have a lot of problems if the lefties win next year, there's a Green Party that wants to ban hunting and the Ultralefties (Rifondazione Comunista) would love to ban private property of any firearm...

but in the while, we play until it is allowed....

ciao

ps I registered in USA cause I live in Boston when I am stateside. Gun laws in MA are actually worse, in some respect, to Italy. Food for thought...



+1 on everything pizzigr1 said about gun laws in Italy and italian political situation. btw all the 30rounds mag for my AR are limited to 5/10rounds

sorry guys,I had to remove the pics because they were too big. I will get the pics back using imageshack in 10minutes.

Link Posted: 11/21/2005 9:01:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2005 9:08:59 AM EDT by Frens]
ok,pics should work now


btw, ciao pizzigr1 benvenuto su AR15.com
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