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Posted: 10/5/2005 3:33:17 PM EDT
I own a 20" Bushy and on my windage, its like 11-12 clicks to the left, and not so great accuracy. The barrel is an HBAR (I want a gov't profile) 1:9 chrome lined. Any thoughts whats doing this? I hear most AR owners have their windage set at center or near center (+ or - a few clicks).
Can someone please shed some light on this for me?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:38:48 PM EDT
Don't know how old your rifle is but a couple of years back Bushie put out a bunch of rifles that had the barrel nuts overtightened, which twisted the barrels to the left a bit, making the rifles shoot to the right. Hence, overcorrection needed w/left windage.

Asuuming your rifle was factory assembled, I'd call Bushmaster, and explain the problem. My hunch is that they'll tell you to send it back for adjustment.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:47:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shamayim:
Don't know how old your rifle is but a couple of years back Bushie put out a bunch of rifles that had the barrel nuts overtightened, which twisted the barrels to the left a bit, making the rifles shoot to the right. Hence, overcorrection needed w/left windage.

Asuuming your rifle was factory assembled, I'd call Bushmaster, and explain the problem. My hunch is that they'll tell you to send it back for adjustment.



+1
I had the same issue a couple years ago.. Bushmaster will take care of you.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 3:58:32 PM EDT
I just got an HBAR.

Was off about a foot and half to the right when I shot the first time.

I am not an incredibly accurate shot, but I know I am not that bad...

I called em and they said to send it back...

Try to get them to pay shipping though...it will run you about 30 bucks UPS 6 day ground...and for something like that, something they should have done correctly the first time, you ought not have to pay shipping, at least not that much.

If they don't reimburse me my shiping cost, I won't buy Bushmaster again, there are too many alterantives out there.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:13:31 PM EDT
Would they have to ship back to my FFL dealer?
And also, do Bushmasters not have the propper "F" marked FSB on their flat-tops?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:22:29 PM EDT
Since you own the weapon, no, you're just sending it to them for repair. You'll be able to get it shipped directly to your door, no FFL involved.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:29:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dangerdan:
Would they have to ship back to my FFL dealer?
And also, do Bushmasters not have the propper "F" marked FSB on their flat-tops?




Just send them the upper no the whole weapon. It will be cheaper that way for shipping and insurance and if it gets lost you will at least still have the lower.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:43:05 PM EDT
My Bushmaster M4 type is like that, but to the right. No problems, it shoots straighter than I can aim it with 55 grain FMJ ammo. Zero malfunctions so far with maybe 1,000 rounds through it.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:59:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tarfu64:
Since you own the weapon, no, you're just sending it to them for repair. You'll be able to get it shipped directly to your door, no FFL involved.



Correct
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:09:05 PM EDT
I have the same problem with my A2 bushie, I had to adjust it 10 clicks to the left. I am not too worried about it though because it shoots fine and I still have plenty of adjustment left. Although for what they cost you would think Bushmaster would sent them out right the first time.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:09:36 PM EDT
Thanks. I'll be contacting Bushmaster.
JW, how much would my uppered reciever cost? It's an A3 upper. I've had it about a week with about 200 rounds through it.
I'm kind of thinking about a Gov't profile barrel with an F-marked FSB. I'm not to fond of the HBAR that much.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:15:19 PM EDT
Funny, my Colt LE6920 shot striaght right out of the box.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:17:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:
Funny, my Colt LE6920 shot striaght right out of the box.



Funny, I'm not talking about Colt though
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:25:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dangerdan:
I own a 20" Bushy and on my windage, its like 11-12 clicks to the left,


12 clicks is within the specifications. There is no issue



and not so great accuracy.

Define 'not so great'. Which aperture were you using? WHat is your experience (99.9% of the time it's the nut behind the stock)

And now Bushy's don't have the "F" front sight base. You shouldn't need it though.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:34:16 PM EDT
At 100 yards I missed the target :/
I live 1 yard over from a gun range. I'm trying to get ahold of the owner to become a member of the gunrange.

It's a nice range. They have different ranges for pistol/small calibers, to a 600 yard competition/USMC type rifle range (with 100, 200, 300 yard target backstops within the 600 yards)
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:35:09 PM EDT
my somewhere above intermediate and below expert opinion thinks the front site base is "canted" I have seen it first hand and not too dificult to see witht the naked eye.

11 -12 clicks might be within spec but it would make me friggin nuts enough to send it back. That's just my opinion....
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:37:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 6:37:41 PM EDT by theshootersden]

Originally Posted By Forest:
WHat is your experience (99.9% of the time it's the nut behind the stock)




+1
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:42:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 6:42:42 PM EDT by theshootersden]

Originally Posted By dangerdan:
Thanks. I'll be contacting Bushmaster.
JW, how much would my uppered reciever cost? It's an A3 upper. I've had it about a week with about 200 rounds through it.
I'm kind of thinking about a Gov't profile barrel with an F-marked FSB. I'm not to fond of the HBAR that much.




As Forest has already said, no need for the "F" marked FSB... The "F" FSB would only create another issue, the need for a COLT carry handle or taller FSP to compensate for the height issue...
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:55:04 PM EDT
I had a Bushmaster upper that had the same problem. I called Bushmaster and they told me to send to in for repair.

I sent just the upper (without handguards and bolt group). I got it back in about two weeks. The rear sight was 100% centered. It was the most accurate upper I owned. I sold it. I miss that upper.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:22:20 PM EDT
Could be an over tourqed barrel nut or canted FSB.All bushmaster flat tops need the taller post to zero.They are sending me one this week.The difference between the regular FSB and F marked is the shelf on top where the post goes and how deep between the ears its machined out.Colt is I assume .040 higher as thats the legnth post needed in a regular FSB that will zero with any upper but a flat top wich is an inch taller in height than a fixed handle.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:03:56 PM EDT
I have heard of this too many times now. Luckily, I have also heard Bushie is good with their customer service.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:08:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
Could be an over tourqed barrel nut or canted FSB.All bushmaster flat tops need the taller post to zero.They are sending me one this week.The difference between the regular FSB and F marked is the shelf on top where the post goes and how deep between the ears its machined out.Colt is I assume .040 higher as thats the legnth post needed in a regular FSB that will zero with any upper but a flat top wich is an inch taller in height than a fixed handle.



If "All bushmaster flat tops need the taller post to zero" why is it then that Bushmaster didnt have one already install on yours?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:30:08 PM EDT
So would a taller sight post help the accuracy better on a Bushy?
I really want a Gov't profile barrel to
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:09:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:
Funny, my Colt LE6920 shot striaght right out of the box.




please, pay no attention to the Colt Cult troll behind the curtain......jesus dude, the guy simply ask a question about his bushmaster, no one said anything at all about your stupid colt....take your stupid remarks somewhere else buddy......i think illgunner should apologize for this comment he made and delete it or be warned by the moderators.....it gets a little old after a while with people pushing there favorite brands off in other people's threads.....i think it just needs to stop all together.....


i do apologize on my part for taking up this space in this thread for this reason and i did not mean to hijack it.....just please, no more jumping into others threads with this nonsense(illgunner)


mods, please speak up....


and to not let this post go to total waste in this man's thread about his bushy, i agree to contact bushmaster and they should gladly allow you to return it to them(with no expense to you) for proper adjustment and repair work....they have a very good customer service record...they'll take care of you....

hope it all works out...


camaro
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:06:44 PM EDT
To the shooters den..I have no idea why but I did get alot of excuses from Bushmaster but they did send me out the taller one ASAP for free and aknowledged the problem.They told me they are aware of the problem and are gonna take steps to make sure the flat tops come with one.On the money making side think about why they dont.They sell the most ARs and they know people will want H buffers,M4 handguards and metal trigger guards and like the front post people wont bitch but just buy what they need to get it up to snuff...I just happened to bitch and yea while I was at it I told them at the least M4 handguards and an aluminum trigger guard should be standard.So why do you think they dont do it...because they know you will just buy it...more money for them.Its a fact that flat tops are an inch taller because you cant have the top of the receiver thin..something thats not a concern with fixed handle rifles.So with a normal FSB its gonna hit higher.Not a problem for people who loli pop their sight picture but for those of us who want the rifle to hit point of aim its a problem.So if people are not bitchin but buying the damn part theres no incentive for the factory just to add it they know they get the $5 for the part and $10 shipping.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 3:58:10 AM EDT
I noticed after I replaced (did work myself) my original barrel with the horrid Mini-Y comp with the same BM barrel with Phantom my rifle shot better.

This thread probably explains why!

Steve
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:19:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
...All bushmaster flat tops need the taller post to zero./



Pun, will you please spend some time with these guns before posting such drivel.

I've got 3 bushy flattops NONE have needed a taller front sight post (rifle or carbine), and I know my buddy has several more and again had no need for a taller front sight pin. Needing the taller front sight pin seems to be more the exception than the rule.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:22:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dangerdan:
At 100 yards I missed the target :/



At 100y if you're missing the the target completely. Then there are two things to check.

1) Are you zeroed properly? Note if you try zeroing at 25y, then go to shoot a 8.5x11" sheet of paper center-mass your rounds will miss the target completely at 100y. Zero the rifle at 50 yards then try again.

2) If you still can't get rounds on paper (or are using a very large target - say something 2'x2'). Then it's you. The worst AR i've ever seen still could manage 4" groups from a good supported prone position at 100y.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:30:41 AM EDT
I wish I had a dollar for every post about Bushmaster requiring X clicks for adjustment. I would retire today

In fact mine was the same. 13 was my number and was approx 80% of the available adjustment to the left.

Perhaps that is "within spec" but what happens when you need windage that direction? You are out of reach.

There is a tech bulletin of sorts posted on BM troubleshooting page that "may" apply

Check it out ---------> By clicking here

I realize it is different than you explain, but may be a solution just the same.

Team Member (Troubleshooting Moderator) Tweak has posted a half dozen links to "the same problem" and solutions to it.

If you can find him before he finds this, you are in luck.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:47:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:
Funny, my Colt LE6920 shot striaght right out of the box.



Congradulations! And it only cost you twice as much!
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:33:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By pun:
...All bushmaster flat tops need the taller post to zero./



Pun, will you please spend some time with these guns before posting such drivel.

I've got 3 bushy flattops NONE have needed a taller front sight post (rifle or carbine), and I know my buddy has several more and again had no need for a taller front sight pin. Needing the taller front sight pin seems to be more the exception than the rule.



+1 Forest...

Its the Mil-spec rear sights that wont align properly with the standard Bushmaster FSB/FSP.

From my experiences, the Bushmaster flat top A3's use a different carry handle with a lower rear sight height, not a taller FSP...

If your going to use mil-spec rear sights (like a COLT carry handle or Matech BUIS) on a Bushmaster A3, you will need the .040" taller FSP... If you are using a Bushmaster carry handle on a Bushmaster A3 you do not need the .040" taller FSP...
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:05:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
If your going to use mil-spec rear sights (like a COLT carry handle or Matech BUIS) on a Bushmaster A3, you will need the .040" taller FSP... If you are using a Bushmaster carry handle on a Bushmaster A3 you do not need the .040" taller FSP...



Shooters Den,
None of my Bushy's have carry handles. They all use military type BUISes, same with my buddies.

In order for someone to 'need' the taller FSP the tolorances have to stack against him. It happens, but most of the time there is plenty of adjustment in the front sight to allow zeroing. Of course it helps when you zero at 50y rather than trying to zero at 25y (or even 25M).
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:18:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 10:59:09 AM EDT by theshootersden]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
If your going to use mil-spec rear sights (like a COLT carry handle or Matech BUIS) on a Bushmaster A3, you will need the .040" taller FSP... If you are using a Bushmaster carry handle on a Bushmaster A3 you do not need the .040" taller FSP...



Shooters Den,
None of my Bushy's have carry handles. They all use military type BUISes, same with my buddies.

In order for someone to 'need' the taller FSP the tolorances have to stack against him. It happens, but most of the time there is plenty of adjustment in the front sight to allow zeroing. Of course it helps when you zero at 50y rather than trying to zero at 25y (or even 25M).



I have had different results... My COLT carry handle and MATECH BUIS elevation will not zero and the calibration is off on the MATECH when used with the Bushmaster A3 carbine, with the COLT carbine everything aligns up perfectly...
I have recently discovered the reason why... Measuring the handles using a micrometer, the rear shelf of my COLT and Bushmaster carry handles (where the sight mounts to) are different heights, there is a .042" difference between the two...
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 10:12:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
I have had different results... ...



Some people do (see my comments on the stacking of tolorances). But in my experience (with mine, my buddies, and the regulars who showed up at the MD shoots) it's usually not a problem. 0.04 is a small difference, but if the tolorances don't stack in your favor it's enough to prevent the sight pin from being secure when zeroed.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 11:58:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
I have had different results... ...


Some people do (see my comments on the stacking of tolorances).



Im picking up what your laying down... It very well could be the different type sights Im using thats giving me the those results...

Forest, what part of MD are you located at? Anywhere near the PA border?
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:07:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
Forest, what part of MD are you located at? Anywhere near the PA border?



I'm in central MD, about an hour to 75min from York.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:14:01 PM EDT
I think I've solved the problem. Since I dont like HBARs that much...I've decided to get a CMT upperd reciever with a 20" gov't profile barrel. No worries on a new rear iron sight being $100, I got some friends who can hook me up
Thanks
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:26:13 PM EDT
Have someone else shoot your rifle and see if they need as many adjustments as you. This will eliminate shooter sight picture error.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:27:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
Forest, what part of MD are you located at? Anywhere near the PA border?



I'm in central MD, about an hour to 75min from York.



Im in southwestern PA... To far of a drive... I was hoping to come visit you guys and do some shootin...
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:32:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:34:35 PM EDT
My rear sight sits to the left too. It's a Clinton era HBAR. I think I'll send it to ADCO for a govt. profile and a naughty flash hider.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 12:37:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
Im in southwestern PA... To far of a drive... I was hoping to come visit you guys and do some shootin...



I get out to Pittsburgh once or twice a year for some training with the FIRE Institute's crew. Come on up and join us there!
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:15:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:
Funny, my Colt LE6920 shot striaght right out of the box.



Funny, because 2 1/2 years ago, my Colt LE6920 was 25 clicks to the left to get zero.
Colt had me return it to my dealer, and I got another one that was good to go.

Jay
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 6:16:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 6:17:36 PM EDT by ttman]
nice to know Oly is not the only POS gun dat does this <---i own said POS gun.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 8:10:54 PM EDT
Man, my Bushmaster has been almost dead on everytime. I hope that this problem will be resolved for you. I just want to say, that my Bushmaster has been superb.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 8:29:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 8:35:28 PM EDT by theshootersden]

Originally Posted By Tweak:

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
the need for a COLT milspec carry handle or taller FSP to compensate for the height issue...



Fixt

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=240120

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=240121

to answer the original question; yes, quite a few of the ones seen here are.



Thanks Tweak

OK then, Heres what had happened... I compared a mil-spec Cardinal Forge carry handle off of a COLT carbine that has the mil-spec "F" marked FSB to a Cardinal Forge non-mil-spec carry handle that is used on my Bushmaster carbine that has a non-mil-spec FSB, and there is a .042" difference in the sight height between the two...

My conclusion is that COLT flat top carbines with the "F" marked FSB has mil-spec front and rear sights and Bushmaster flat top carbines has non-mil-spec front and rear sights

I have also discovered that the MATECH BUIS is calibrated to be used on the M4 with the "F" marked FSB and will not zero properly on a Bushmaster flat top carbine unless the FSP is raised approximatly .040"...
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 8:44:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By theshootersden:
Im in southwestern PA... To far of a drive... I was hoping to come visit you guys and do some shootin...



I get out to Pittsburgh once or twice a year for some training with the FIRE Institute's crew. Come on up and join us there!



Forest, You'll have to IM me next time your up this way... That place is only about 35 miles away from where I live
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 10:50:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AZCOP:

Originally Posted By Illinigunner21:
Funny, my Colt LE6920 shot striaght right out of the box.



Funny, because 2 1/2 years ago, my Colt LE6920 was 25 clicks to the left to get zero.
Colt had me return it to my dealer, and I got another one that was good to go.

Jay




Inconceivable !!! You're obviously lying!

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 11:03:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 11:46:11 AM EDT by 556Cliff]
E-mail from Bushmaster.

Subject: Sight heights

"When Colt came out with the A3 design with the detachable carry handle they made the front and rear sights .040" higher than the sights used on A1 and A2 rifles. The front sight forging is the same but the front sight post when set for mechanical zero is even with the top of the sight ears instead of below them as the plane for the sight post is milled higher. You will notice on 20" A3 barrels there are two raised bands on the barrel under the handguards. This designates that the barrel has the front sight base with the front sight that is milled high for the front sight post. Colt parts lists have a different part number for the higher front sight base barrels and sight bases for A3 and M4 barrels.

We decided when we began to build the A3 models with detachable carry handles that we would keep the sight heights the same for all models. Our A3 handle, Flat-Top Rear Sight and Rear Flip Up Sight has the same rear sight aperture height as on the A1 and A2 receivers so that all barrels with standard height front sight bases will interchange. The Mark Brown Flat Top Mount also uses this same rear sight height.

The A.R.M.S. Swan Sleeve, #40 Flip Up Rear Sights, Colt A3 handle and G. G. & G. have the higher rear sight aperture height. When used with standard height front sight bases the front sight post must be turned out to the .040" higher position where it is even with the top of the sight base ears for mechanical zero.

We now carry a .040" taller front sight post, part number 9349056-M for $4.95, to correct this difference.

I do not know why they changed the elevation of the sights on the A3 models. You would have to ask them why it was done if you can get a response from them."

Jim Eden, Tech Support

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 11:21:25 AM EDT
I have a upper from bravo that is like this, shoots way to to the right, but still within the adjustments of the sights. Its still a great upper, accurate and reliable. They already did a great job fixing another problem I had with it and it doesnt seem detrimental to funtion, so I never bothered sending it back in for this. But is there an easy way to get the zero more toward the center?
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 1:40:57 PM EDT
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