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Posted: 9/2/2005 10:21:09 AM EDT
[#1]
Very true, about the 100 lbs of light weight gear. However, as you know there is a reason we add the lasers, optics and lights. You would eventually have to add them to either platform, so if you start with a heavier platform it is going to weigh allot more when you add the combat multiple tools to it. The middle of a fire fight is not the time to cross level, but right afterward is. I remember from when I use to trained army FSO you guys save TTP we do. Right after seizing the object or repealing an attack you cross level, from the least engaged to most engaged. |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 10:31:32 AM EDT
[#2]
I would take whatever I was issued and make the best with it. If you are going to take the time to bitch and whine over getting the "wrong" weapon instead of mastering it and making the best of it you are a waste of time.
BOTH have thier strong points BOTH have thier weak points Both are great weapons platforms and both have thier "perfect" niches for engagment. You cannot take one and expect it to excel in both areas whether it be open country or MOUT operations. I wonder if the M16/M4 hadnt gotten the popularity it has lately and all the list of goodies to go with it, what would all of the answers be? |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 10:40:51 AM EDT
[#3]
But.....
Nevertheless...I'm loving this debate here gents.....very informative from both angles...but I still think my "Varminter Suggestion" is das shid....love it...thanks....and... L8R, Bill. 
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Posted: 9/2/2005 10:49:07 AM EDT
[#4]
As issued, the M14 is very limited to what you can mount to it. So the weight savings with the M4 is negligible. There are some after-maket rails that are available for the M14 and if pressed, I'm sure SA would sell the SOCOM M1A rail system/stock to the Army as a COTS buy.
My SDMs have M14s and there have been times when we have had to de-link M240 ammo for them. This is akin to running cheap mexican gas in a Ferrari. But ya gotta do what ya gotta do to stay in the fight. As an 11B4V I am well aware of when FM 7-8 says to cross level ammo. I was was trying to make the point that 7 mags is inadequate to the task here in Iraq. You get into a serious contact with only 7 seven mags and you WILL be begging your buddy for a mag before the end of it. Mike |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 11:13:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Fuzion,
Yes, the M4 MWS is more effective than a vanilla M14. When you add in all the M4 attachments, the weight savings between an M14 and an M4 aren't that great. I agree with you about effectiveness. But your comment was about the weight of the two systems, not effectiveness. Mike |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 11:44:03 AM EDT
[#6]
Wrong....weights just always been 1 factor of many I've cited...including ergo's, compactness and the ability of the M4 to be a far better "cyclic rate" fast handling tactical performer...and imho?...that just can't be denied. |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 11:53:57 AM EDT
[#7]
I was really hoping this wouldn't degrade into a M16 versus M14 thread.
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Posted: 9/2/2005 12:11:13 PM EDT
[#8]
I don't think it's "Degrading"...I think there's some great info and points being made. 
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Posted: 9/2/2005 4:57:58 PM EDT
[#9]
M16 v M14... M16 by a hair.
M4 v M14......M4 all the way. Lightweight, and much handier w/o all of the bells and whistles. And plenty effective under 100m. |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 5:12:42 PM EDT
[#10]
The weapon in question there was not an M-14, but a much cherished M-21. There was a huge debate about this a long time ago, because he used the -21 when the -25 was vogue amongst his peers. But I'll just keep my trap shut about that. RLTW. |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 5:39:45 PM EDT
[#11]
I'd feel lucky!
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Posted: 9/2/2005 11:08:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Fuzion, I'm gonna stir teh pot up some more
600 rounds of 5.56 on one hand, and 160 7.62 (using your numbers). Now how much of an advantage is it when it takes 3 hits from 5.56 to put someone down compared to 1 from the 7.62?
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Posted: 9/2/2005 11:21:26 PM EDT
[#13]
As a old 11B who humped both I'd take a M14 any day.
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Posted: 9/3/2005 4:01:16 AM EDT
[#14]
I Would gladly take one of the new Springfield SOCOM carbines or one from Fulton Armory. The real deal is that the carbine is so much better suited to the close quarters drill we have to live by here in SWA. Since most of our Soldiers are in armored HMMWV's getting in and out quickly is a key reason you see so many M4's. A good mix of M4's and SOCOM's would be fine with almost any unit. Just keep the Ammo coming and we will do the shooting.
The Army Owns the Night God bless America Very Respectfully, David |
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Posted: 9/3/2005 5:10:14 AM EDT
[#15]
Well when you throw in it normally take several (if not dozens) misses for both systems to get that one hit, it really changes the math. |
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Posted: 9/3/2005 8:35:52 AM EDT
[#16]
First off...I don't see it as "Stirring The Pot"...I see it as good healthy informative intelligent "Debate"...which when engaged in properly?...more often than not serves to make both parties wiser in the end....and imho "THAT'S" a good thing. Now onto answering your question.....600/3=200-160='s 40...so..."40" is your answer...so mathmatically and theoretically you could put 40 more dicks in the dirt with 600rds of triple tapped 5.56 than you could with 160 single shot kills from a 7.62....40 MORE with the 600rds of 5.56....and a much lighter, far more compact weapon to carry back after your finished. L8R, Bill.
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Posted: 9/3/2005 8:45:50 AM EDT
[#17]
Ahhh....now there's a point....however....I believe all those "Dozens Of Misses" you cite are often times refered to as..."Supresssing Fire"....an extremely valuable asset...especially if you wind up pinned down and need to buy some time for help to arrive....and 160rds doesn't buy ya a whole lotta time no matter what caliber it is....maybe 15-30 minutes at best under a real aggressive advance...if doled out wisely....where ya might be able to stretch things out for a couple hours with 600rds....and I by far prefer that as opposed to RUNNING OUT OF AMMO 1 1/2 hours ago.  L8R, Bill.
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Posted: 9/3/2005 9:04:35 AM EDT
[#18]
Yes, they are different, which is why I'd be looking for adiscarded AK & ammo, not just ammo alone. |
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Posted: 9/3/2005 9:09:56 AM EDT
[#19]
give me the M40A1
catfish |
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Posted: 9/3/2005 9:23:18 AM EDT
[#20]
The Springfield SOCOM is a whole new gun. Very sweet handling.....haven't shot one but they are real nice. Don't feel like a M14 at all....light and very well balanced. I would expect the blast & recoil to be rather ferocious. Hmmm....a good candidate for a Noveske diverter or a short moderator.
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Posted: 9/3/2005 9:33:57 AM EDT
[#21]
Nope not suppressive fire but actual attempts to hit identified targets, BTDT with both types of fire and you would be surprised how many rounds put down range don't hit what they are being aimed at. The RCO has helped allot but still have allot of misses for every hit.
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Posted: 9/3/2005 9:37:36 AM EDT
[#22]
An M14 would be terrible in MOUT fighting.
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Posted: 9/3/2005 9:54:03 AM EDT
[#23]
+ a HUGE BIG 1...and I can't stress enough just how slow the effective cyclic rate of the 14's substancial recoil is....shot-to-shot sight recovery is not that noticable for 1-3 shots but...you get into some seriously heated urban work and you'll feel like your armed with your grandpas deer rifle as opposed to the Ferrari like performance of an M4...hell...if I hadta mill through some tight streets and allyways I'd almost feel better slinging my 14 and breaking out a .45.....but with an M4 there's no need for either of those. |
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Posted: 9/3/2005 10:31:31 AM EDT
[#24]
M4 or A4 over the M14/M1A any day.
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Posted: 9/4/2005 12:37:09 PM EDT
[#25]
I don't know where you're getting the 160 round loadout from. Heck from my dad who carried a M1 during WW2, He'd have 10x8 + 1 clip in the rifle ='s 88 rounds + 5 extra Bandoleers 8x6x5= 240 rounds. So even way back then they'd carry 328 rounds of '06. On the same line of thinking in '77 my unit went to 29 Palms for a joint service training exercise. We were issued 2 canteens. I told every one in my squad to go over to clothing sales and buy 2 more canteens and covers. Most of my squad didn't, saying that if they needed them the Army would issue them extra canteens. Guess who ran out of water and were crying. Then you'd have the people who smoked cigarettes and would take 1 or 2 packs for a week in the field. Packs that sold for $.25 at the PX were worth $2.00 or more in the field. People would have cash with them but not the supplies they needed. I'd take 2 or 3 cartons of smokes and make a killing in the field. |
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Posted: 9/5/2005 12:23:28 AM EDT
[#26]
Also I don't care what the TO&E says, you'll find a way to hump as much ammo and water as you need. I might have been dirty cold and hungry but I carried the water and ammo I felt I needed. And we walked no riding around in Hummers or Bradleys in my day. A 100 lbd ruck was a easy day.
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Posted: 9/5/2005 1:08:41 AM EDT
[#27]
The M14 from 40 ago years has some drawbacks
Recoil Length Weight No provisions for modern advancements like red dots, optics, flashlights And I think springfield has addressed these issues well with their SOCOM and Scout models http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/rifles/AA9122Large.jpg http://www.springfield-armory.com/images/rifles/AA9627Large.jpg I recently had the chance to play with the Scout M1A and it's very impressive and addresses some of the issues I mentioned The muzzle device shaves down recoil alot making it much faster than the old school M14 It's 40" long, making it 4" shorter than the vietnam M14, or about the length of an M16A4 It's about a 1lbs lighter And it has an integrated rail for a forward mounted optic or red dot, but there isnt any space for a flashlight For my line of work (private security) the scout is still too big and conspicuous, but it's the right size for a war rifle of it's caliber. I've always thought the M16A4 was bigger than it needs to be. And lets not forget with the M1A you get gobs of power for defeating barriers and unarmored vehicles at further ranges than the 5.56. Personally I'd rather let the .308 do the entry work than put me or of my teammates in harms way I really like the scout, but for what I do it cant replace my FN PDW or RRA carbine with one |
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Posted: 9/5/2005 7:13:00 AM EDT
[#28]
OK, the point of issuing M-14's in theater is that you have one in a platoon (or squad if the Supply Fairy) loves you to take the longer shots that a M4 will not do reliably. M855 ammo is a lousy stopper. I've seen it. The battalion only owns two 7.62mm bolt guns otherwise, so do the math. 5.56mm is also bad for shooting cars at checkpoints or on drive-by shootings. We lost a soldier to a drive-by, and later on when we tracked the shooters down, the garaged car was full of 5.56mm holes that had still failed to stop the getaway no matter how well they were placed. Perhaps a squad 7.62mm would have made a difference, I don't know.
I personally had to pass up a couple long shots (4-500 meters) with civilian buildings for a backdrop where I knew I did not have the accuracy or knockdown power with an M4 to drop the dirtbags in question. So what did I do? Got on the deadliest weapon on the battlefield, a radio, and informed the next OP up the road they had a couple RPG-toting locals, and they shot them instead. Based on my duties last time, I would rather have had an M-14, or even a rail-forend .308 Garand. I was never in a very high volume of fire situation, I was in situations where prolonged slow aimed fire was the order of the day. Other units had it differently. This time where I'm driving a HQ truck, I'll keep my M4/203 combo. |
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Posted: 9/5/2005 7:38:41 AM EDT
[#29]
The head shed at Benning is saying the addition of the M14 to each squad didn't really yield any improvement, though. My Battalion had zero bolt guns, but the very few times we had to shoot at "long" distance we used our 50 cals and got on the radio to ask for CIFS, but about 99 percent of the time we shot ever weapons system, minus pistols, at the target. I may have a different perspective on it, but I would rather wound a Haji, than not take the shot no matter what. Since the factor limiting accuracy is not the weapon or round but the human I wouldn't really wouldn't count on a improved long range ability to hit just because of switching out rifles. |
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Posted: 9/5/2005 8:34:28 AM EDT
[#30]
Corporal John Roland Burke used an M14 successfully out to 1,000yds. I think that dispells any myths about the M14 family being a poor sniper rifle.
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Posted: 9/5/2005 9:54:10 AM EDT
[#31]
Yeah, my SL told me if I was going to shoot from the OP and probably compromise it, I had one round to do it with. I'm pretty good, but I couldn't be sure enough to take it. We also had zero .50's in the company, and fire support required Brigade approval. We weren't engaged, so wasn't worth trying to get. Besides, we were worried about loose rifle rounds, loose mortar rounds would have been worse.
AMU's CO also said in an interview the M14 was 30 years out of date and had no spare parts left in the system so they were against reissuing it. A lot of times it WON'T make a difference, I think Benning is right on that, but there are times it would and they're ignoring the small improvements as not worth their effort, so for that reason I suggest the following. 1. An M-14 per squad or platoon pending change to 77gr like SOCOM and the USMC(short term) 2. Armywide changeover to the 6.8mm (medium term) 3. A push-rod upper conversion similar to the HK416 in 6.8mm This will allow steady improvement in the lead we send downrange and upgrade the rifles we carry it in while allowing the magazine inventory to change over and all the money dumped into tactical gear not to be made obsolete by a new mag. |
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Posted: 9/5/2005 10:53:23 AM EDT
[#32]
I'm surprised no one answered in the true ARFCOM fashion and say both! That's what I did last rotation. Had a M4A1 with EOTech and a National Match M14 with a SA forward scope mount with EOTech. I never had a problem getting M118LR but did run into a National Guardsman working with my son's company in Baghdad that also carried a standard M14 with M68 CCO. All he had was 4 mags with M80 ball. M80 ball isn't hard to get but you do have to delink it. This year I couldn't sign out the M14 but do have a M24 in .300 WM for the long shots and same M4 for everything else. Its nighttime now and I have to attach the PVS-17 on top of the M4.
CD |
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Posted: 9/5/2005 1:18:16 PM EDT
[#33]
If I was doing lots of urban house clearing, I would want the M4. No question.
If I'm only doing the occasional house clearing, but I'm in the open terrain the majority of the time, I'd take the 14. Also no question about it either. Course, I have a Polytech M14 and a handful of AR's so I can compare them back to back (and have with a couple hours of coyote hunting). I recently found out that I'm lethal out to 700yds on a human sized target with the Polytech, but I'll have to see how I do with my AR's at that range. I feel that the .308, and the M14, is a match made in heaven. Course, I'm 190lbs of farm kid, so the .308 doesn't affect me much more than an M4gery. It is a little bit bigger push, yes, but I PERSONALLY can recover pretty quickly with the 14. Then again, I'm kinda old school for my age, so I'm a little biased. I think I was just born too late WIZZO |
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Posted: 9/5/2005 7:15:52 PM EDT
[#34]
i thought i read somewhere that the modern springfield M1A's are being issued as precision marksman (sniper) rifles?
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Posted: 9/5/2005 7:19:20 PM EDT
[#35]
M-21's and M-25's, and have been for years to the sniper/counter-sniper types. But it sounds like the DM's are being issued M-14's, which don't quite offer the precision that the -21/-25 does.. |
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