Blackhawk Down carbine setup used by Delta - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Blackhawk Down carbine setup used by Delta (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 8/4/2005 9:55:18 AM EDT

[#1]

I think what you see in the movie are 11.5" m733 with one of the early aimpoints, that use wire instead of rubber to keep the caps together.

Posted: 8/4/2005 10:08:49 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
While we are arguing semantics, the term CAR-15 is a good one. Earliest reference I know of regarding the CAR-15 dates back to 1964, and it was used by Colt's as a blanket name to cover their entire line of 5.56 weapons including 20" HBARs.

I guess I just always thought of the CAR-15 as the RO607 series, whereas I view the XM177 designation starting with the RO609(E1 Army) to include RO610/610B (E1 USAF), RO619, RO620 (E1 export), RO629 (E2 Army) and RO6309 E2 USAF), RO639/640 (E2 export w&w/o FA) and of course the 9mm XM177 commandos (RO633/633HB, RO634 & RO635.)

It just seems that anything with an 11.5" barrel and collapsible gets labeled a CAR-15. Doesn't seem right, looking at the nomenclature tables. The RO608 also seems to be labeled as "CAR15" even though it did have fixed stock. (survival rifle with 10" (254 mm) barrel and fixed tubular buttstock. About 10 produced.)

I supposed this could be dabated forever with no clear resolution, but those are what I come up with... any body have TBR I? I'd like to say what they say.

Sure, the term is now sorta slang for a "shorty carbine".

Posted: 8/4/2005 10:14:18 AM EDT

[#3]

The way it's COMMONLY interpreted (not saying this is by the book) is that:

Pre M4 carbines are referred to as CAR15s (even XM177E1 and E2)
"AR15 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any civillian AR15 type rifle
"M16 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any mil AR15 type rifle (even M4 and other carbines. M16A2 lower with an 11" barell is still an M16)
"Shorty" would designate any carbine with a bulett hose of around 11" or lower.

Am I about right?

Posted: 8/4/2005 10:19:38 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
that's definitely not entirely correct. An M4 is not an AR15. If you are trying to say that carbine length AR15s are CAR15s, then an M4 would not be a CAR15 because it is not built on an AR15 lower, it is built on an M16 lower.

You are wrong again. An M16 is an AR-15. Just like a M4 is an AR-15. An XM177 is an AR-15.

An AR-15 is a complete family of weapons.

Here is a link for you to look at...

http://www.specializedarmament.com/images/art/SMGCAR.GIF

ok, i see- I went off on a tangent and ended up in nevernever land.

What I was originally getting at was that the newest iteration of the CAR15, what people know as the M4, wasn't around in Somalia. The 14.5" barrel with birdcage, cut barrel, feedramps, detachable carry handle, etc. were not yet available on an issued rifle and any instances of them in the movie or in advertising are wrong.

that's all i was trying to get at. The M4 is the newest evolution in the family of CAR15s but there is absolutely no reason to call it a CAR15 especially when the discussion is nitpicking the differences between what was and what wasn't available at the time.

Posted: 8/4/2005 10:46:41 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
The M4, IIRC, was developed in 1984 and accepted into service in 85 or 86. The Marine Corps was one of the main forces in its development.

According to www.army.mil, the M4 entered service in 1997.

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:01:55 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The M4, IIRC, was developed in 1984 and accepted into service in 85 or 86. The Marine Corps was one of the main forces in its development.

According to www.army.mil, the M4 entered service in 1997.

That might possibly be when the army started to issue it to the regs as opposed to the elite?

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:08:46 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The M4, IIRC, was developed in 1984 and accepted into service in 85 or 86. The Marine Corps was one of the main forces in its development.

According to www.army.mil, the M4 entered service in 1997.

That is when it was accepted and type classified. There are units that get to purchase weapons through other channels.

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:09:31 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The M4, IIRC, was developed in 1984 and accepted into service in 85 or 86. The Marine Corps was one of the main forces in its development.

According to www.army.mil, the M4 entered service in 1997.

That might possibly be when the army started to issue it to the regs as opposed to the elite?

That website is incorrect. First contract award was in 1994:

www.colt.com/law/history.asp

The M16A4 was adopted Standard A in 1997. Regular infantry began receiving M4 Carbines in 1995. Something like 200 were delivered to each Infantry Division.

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:11:41 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The M4, IIRC, was developed in 1984 and accepted into service in 85 or 86. The Marine Corps was one of the main forces in its development.

According to www.army.mil, the M4 entered service in 1997.

That is when it was accepted and type classified. There are units that get to purchase weapons through other channels.

That M4 was accepted Standard A in 1995. Guess I need to type out a time line?

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:15:42 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The M4, IIRC, was developed in 1984 and accepted into service in 85 or 86. The Marine Corps was one of the main forces in its development.

According to www.army.mil, the M4 entered service in 1997.

That is when it was accepted and type classified. There are units that get to purchase weapons through other channels.

That M4 was accepted Standard A in 1995. Guess I need to type out a time line?

Yes, but did not actually hit the line until 1997. Even then, it was only issued to NCOs and Officers in light infantry units. I would imagine thats about the same time the first run of M4A1s was done.....

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:17:03 AM EDT

[#11]

IIRC Delta ordered the Colt 723 carbine. These had 14.5" non-stepped barrels, and A1 rear sights. This appears to be what's in the real pictures of Delta in the Mog.

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:18:52 AM EDT

[#12]

Here is a thread titled "M4 time line", or something like that:

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=242732

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:22:23 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The M4, IIRC, was developed in 1984 and accepted into service in 85 or 86. The Marine Corps was one of the main forces in its development.

According to www.army.mil, the M4 entered service in 1997.

That is when it was accepted and type classified. There are units that get to purchase weapons through other channels.

That M4 was accepted Standard A in 1995. Guess I need to type out a time line?

Yes, but did not actually hit the line until 1997. Even then, it was only issued to NCOs and Officers in light infantry units. I would imagine thats about the same time the first run of M4A1s was done.....

With only 200 allotted per Division from the first batch, then yes only NCO's, RTO's, Officers and such would have been issued them. Think the first order in 1994 was for 19,000 M4's, those will only stretch so far.

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:30:18 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
IIRC Delta ordered the Colt 723 carbine. These had 14.5" non-stepped barrels, and A1 rear sights. This appears to be what's in the real pictures of Delta in the Mog.

I have a picture of a guy doing VIP security detail for Gen. Schwarzkopf during Desert Storm. Would guess the security guy was Delta? The carbine he is holding has a 14.5" barrel with the 203 cut, an A1 rear sight, and old style carbine handguards. This was back in 1991, so if this guy was Delta, then you could figure that they still had those carbines during "Black Hawk Down". Lot of conjecture there though.

Do know that the picture I posted on page 2 has a couple of M16A2 carbines with 14.5" barrels. Took that picture off a Black Hawk Down website, supposed to be Rangers.

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:36:03 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
IIRC Delta ordered the Colt 723 carbine. These had 14.5" non-stepped barrels, and A1 rear sights. This appears to be what's in the real pictures of Delta in the Mog.

I would definitely like that version but I'd but the fat handguards.

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:41:51 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
IIRC Delta ordered the Colt 723 carbine. These had 14.5" non-stepped barrels, and A1 rear sights. This appears to be what's in the real pictures of Delta in the Mog.

I have a picture of a guy doing VIP security detail for Gen. Schwarzkopf during Desert Storm. Would guess the security guy was Delta? The carbine he is holding has a 14.5" barrel with the 203 cut, an A1 rear sight, and old style carbine handguards. This was back in 1991, so if this guy was Delta, then you could figure that they still had those carbines during "Black Hawk Down". Lot of conjecture there though.

Do know that the picture I posted on page 2 has a couple of M16A2 carbines with 14.5" barrels. Took that picture off a Black Hawk Down website, supposed to be Rangers.

Take a peak at the pictures _Dr posted on page 1 from www.bhd93.com. Those apparantly are actual photos from Somalia, and though not the best quality, the second one down shows some good profile shots of the carbines. They look like 14.5" barreled weapons with A1 sights to me.

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:43:35 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
SFOD-D (Delta) related pics in Somalia showing equipment.

poor quality pics, but there aren't a lot around for obvious reasons. Digital cameras were not "de riguer" in 1993. source: www.bhd93.com

img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/darowden/ahm.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/darowden/marines_d.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/darowden/intro.jpg

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:47:37 AM EDT

[#18]

I can't really make it out, but the guy seated and closest, looks like that might have A1 rear sights?

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:55:49 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/darowden/marines_d.jpg

I can't really make it out, but the guy seated and closest, looks like that might have A1 rear sights?

That's what I'm thinking. It's definitely hard to make out, and all you really have to go on is the size of the opening in the loop, which appears A1 size, at least to me.

Posted: 8/4/2005 11:58:03 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/darowden/marines_d.jpg

I can't really make it out, but the guy seated and closest, looks like that might have A1 rear sights?

That's what I'm thinking. It's definitely hard to make out, and all you really have to go on is the size of the opening in the loop, which appears A1 size, at least to me.

Could be, and would make sense considering the 1991 picture I have.

Posted: 8/4/2005 12:06:34 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
IIRC Delta ordered the Colt 723 carbine. These had 14.5" non-stepped barrels, and A1 rear sights. This appears to be what's in the real pictures of Delta in the Mog.

I have a picture of a guy doing VIP security detail for Gen. Schwarzkopf during Desert Storm. Would guess the security guy was Delta? The carbine he is holding has a 14.5" barrel with the 203 cut, an A1 rear sight, and old style carbine handguards. This was back in 1991, so if this guy was Delta, then you could figure that they still had those carbines during "Black Hawk Down". Lot of conjecture there though.

Do know that the picture I posted on page 2 has a couple of M16A2 carbines with 14.5" barrels. Took that picture off a Black Hawk Down website, supposed to be Rangers.

This was my understanding as well.

Posted: 8/4/2005 12:26:39 PM EDT

[#22]

.

Posted: 8/4/2005 4:03:11 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
How well does an Aimpoint work on a carry handle? Seems they would be very high up and pretty far back.

Works OK for me… more of a 'chin weld' than a 'cheek weld'……

A2 with a CompM and an A.R.M.S. 16A handle mount……

ANdy

Posted: 8/4/2005 4:19:39 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
The way it's COMMONLY interpreted (not saying this is by the book) is that:

Pre M4 carbines are referred to as CAR15s (even XM177E1 and E2)
"AR15 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any civillian AR15 type rifle
"M16 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any mil AR15 type rifle (even M4 and other carbines. M16A2 lower with an 11" barell is still an M16)
"Shorty" would designate any carbine with a bulett hose of around 11" or lower.

Am I about right?

M4's are M4.s, M16's are M16's… with an 11" barrel it's an M4 Commando

www.colt.com

Posted: 8/4/2005 6:42:36 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The way it's COMMONLY interpreted (not saying this is by the book) is that:

Pre M4 carbines are referred to as CAR15s (even XM177E1 and E2)
"AR15 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any civillian AR15 type rifle
"M16 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any mil AR15 type rifle (even M4 and other carbines. M16A2 lower with an 11" barell is still an M16)
"Shorty" would designate any carbine with a bulett hose of around 11" or lower.

Am I about right?

M4's are M4.s, M16's are M16's… with an 11" barrel it's an M4 Commando

www.colt.com

Not if it was an 11" barrel in 1991 it wasn't (an M4 commando)

you sure like to talk alot- 10000 posts in 1-1.5 years? do you have AR15s in England?

Posted: 8/4/2005 9:04:54 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
How well does an Aimpoint work on a carry handle? Seems they would be very high up and pretty far back.

Works OK for me… more of a 'chin weld' than a 'cheek weld'……

A2 with a CompM and an A.R.M.S. 16A handle mount……

img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/DSC00106.jpg

ANdy

nice setup andy, i myself like the scope on carryhandle.

Posted: 8/4/2005 10:20:35 PM EDT

[#27]

The most common carbines were:

1.) Colt 653's rebarreled and updated with 1/7 twist 14.5'" pencil or M4 profile barrels, and new stock assemblies NSN 6D1005-01-029-3866 most of these came from a stock of 1500 or so carbines that were bought circa 1976/78

2.) Colt 723 carbines( Basically an M4 with C7 upper) NSN OA1005-LL-L99-5287

3.) Or the newer Colt 720's and 727's which were a mix of M16A2 carbines with 14.5" M4 or pencil barrels NSN 1005-01-231-0973

The standard sight at the time was the Aimpoint 5000 series.

There were also some of the left over Bushmaster XM4's from the 350 unit contract from GW1....most of the Bushmaster units were retro fitted with Colt Stock and Handguard assemblies as the Bushmaster parts were not up to milspec.....about 50 or so were fitted with the earlier Aluminum Colt stocks.

Posted: 8/4/2005 10:28:39 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

2.) Colt 723 carbines( Basically an M4 with C7 upper) NSN OA1005-LL-L99-5287

What kind of NSN is that? Even a local (added by the unit) NSN would still a 00 or 01 instead of the LL.

Posted: 8/4/2005 10:59:05 PM EDT

[#29]

It's the only one I've seen published for the 723....its the NSN assigned to the Colt 723's sold to NSW by Colt circa 1987/89...Kevin Dockery listed it in his Special Warfare Special Weapons book....as far as Army SF and CAG as far as I know all the 723's were COTS purchase or were bought as PIP kits to update older M16A1 and XM177 series carbines.

The other NSN #'s I have for the Colt 653's are

USN NSN 1005-01-029-3866

USAF NSN 1005-01-042-9820

US Army NSN 1005-01-081-4582

Posted: 8/5/2005 3:08:00 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
It's the only one I've seen published for the 723....its the NSN assigned to the Colt 723's sold to NSW by Colt circa 1987/89...Kevin Dockery listed it in his Special Warfare Special Weapons book....as far as Army SF and CAG as far as I know all the 723's were COTS purchase or were bought as PIP kits to update older M16A1 and XM177 series carbines.

The other NSN #'s I have for the Colt 653's are

USN NSN 1005-01-029-3866

USAF NSN 1005-01-042-9820

US Army NSN 1005-01-081-4582

1005-01-081-4582 is an M-231 port firing weapon

1005-01-042-9820 is listed as a GUU-5P, tele stock, 14 1/2 barrel, so a 653.

1005-01-029-3866 is listed as Part no "653" .

1005-01-231-0973 is listed as part no 939, and is an M4 with burst. Basically the regular Army flattop M4.

1005-01-376-7245 is listed as part no 727, and "Carbine, 5.56mm".

Posted: 8/5/2005 6:56:38 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

1005-01-081-4582 is an M-231 port firing weapon
1005-01-042-9820 is listed as a GUU-5P, tele stock, 14 1/2 barrel, so a 653. isn't this the GAU-5P that the airforce gets?
1005-01-029-3866 is listed as Part no "653" .
1005-01-231-0973 is listed as part no 939, and is an M4 with burst. Basically the regular Army flattop M4. is that the correct interpretation? did the initial M4s have flattops or just A2 carry handles? I thought the flattop came along with the A1 designation and the full auto, but i guess there could have been a transitional period.
1005-01-376-7245 is listed as part no 727, and "Carbine, 5.56mm".

GOOD JOB GUYS, NOW WE JUST NEED PICTURES FOR EACH OF THOSE DESIGNATIONS...

Posted: 8/5/2005 6:56:58 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
There were also some of the left over Bushmaster XM4's from the 350 unit contract from GW1....most of the Bushmaster units were retro fitted with Colt Stock and Handguard assemblies as the Bushmaster parts were not up to milspec.....about 50 or so were fitted with the earlier Aluminum Colt stocks.

By any chance do you documentation on this?

Posted: 8/5/2005 7:13:34 AM EDT

[#33]

Id like to see it too. 24 years in the military, most in spec ops, never once have I seen an issued Bushmaster product. Of course the company makes a big deal of it. I have never seen documentation that the military has purchased any complete weapons from Bushmaster.

Posted: 8/5/2005 7:32:53 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
do you have AR15s in England?

In the UK we are allowed to have manually operated (straight pull) AR15 type rifles. We can only have semi-auto AR15s if they are a rimfire caliber (ie .22) So the only options open to us is to have a full bore AR15 where you have to pull back the charging handle after every shot, or to have a semiauto .22.

For both types of firearms you need a Firearms Certificate. To obtain said certificate you need to demonstrate "good reason" to own the rifle and you need a place to safely store and use the rifle.

It really does suck

EDIT: The only good thing is that we have pretty much free reign over supressors. We can stick a can on our rifles without paying that awful tax.

Posted: 8/5/2005 7:44:53 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The way it's COMMONLY interpreted (not saying this is by the book) is that:

Pre M4 carbines are referred to as CAR15s (even XM177E1 and E2)
"AR15 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any civillian AR15 type rifle
"M16 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any mil AR15 type rifle (even M4 and other carbines. M16A2 lower with an 11" barell is still an M16)
"Shorty" would designate any carbine with a bulett hose of around 11" or lower.

Am I about right?

M4's are M4.s, M16's are M16's… with an 11" barrel it's an M4 Commando

www.colt.com

Not if it was an 11" barrel in 1991 it wasn't (an M4 commando)

you sure like to talk alot- 10000 posts in 1-1.5 years? do you have AR15s in England?

Pay attention, … see that picture I posted a page back? that's an AR15, MY AR15…

So where is the 1991 reference in that post? and what the fuck's my post count got to do with owning an AR15?

If you haul your ass over to the UK Hometown you will see lots of British AR's…

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=5&t=193680

ANdy

Posted: 8/5/2005 7:44:55 AM EDT

[#36]

Also, notice the Rem 870 in the doorway behind the operator closest to the camera? Wooden fore end very obvious...

Posted: 8/5/2005 7:45:51 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Jeez, it is a movie! They cannot accurately recreate everything. ..

+1

Posted: 8/5/2005 7:49:48 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How well does an Aimpoint work on a carry handle? Seems they would be very high up and pretty far back.

Works OK for me… more of a 'chin weld' than a 'cheek weld'……

A2 with a CompM and an A.R.M.S. 16A handle mount……

img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/DSC00106.jpg

ANdy

nice setup andy, i myself like the scope on carryhandle.

Thanks… I did have a 1.5-5 scope up there but the Aimpoint said 'buy me'

Andy

Posted: 8/5/2005 8:04:55 AM EDT

[#39]

If I remember correctly some personnel from Delta and Joint Special Operations (JSOC) had Colt commercial/export CAR-15's with both light weight 14.5 barrels,and even a few with the M-4 type of barrel recessed for the m203. All the upper receivers had M16A1 sights and the M16A2 brass deflectors. I also noticed quite a few Bushmaster commercial Car-15 type of carbines with the fore mentioned upper receivers. I think most of the Bushmasters were purchased during Desert Storm, most had very little finish left on the receviers and a few had been rebuilt using Colt barrels bolt carriers and all the Bushmasters were equiped with the colt type lower receiver extention tubes. I recall that on at least one TDY trip to Somaila while assigned to JSOC I was issued a Bushmaster Carbine that had a Colt barreled upper receiver and the weapon had been painted with solid flim lubicant. As far as what type optics the Delta operators used I can not recall the model but it was much longer than the current Aimpoint/M68. I was not offered an optic sight to use on my weapon. I always felt somewhat uncomfortable carring a carbine in the pre-M4 period since they tended to make you stand out in a crowd and always drew unwanted attention. As a field grade officer it made me feel like sniper bait. Hope this information helps.

Cheers!

Posted: 8/5/2005 8:25:20 AM EDT

[#40]

Where will these carbines be now (the ones that DELTA used in '93)? Will they still be in Army circulation?

Posted: 8/5/2005 9:09:34 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Quoted:

1005-01-081-4582 is an M-231 port firing weapon
1005-01-042-9820 is listed as a GUU-5P, tele stock, 14 1/2 barrel, so a 653. isn't this the GAU-5P that the airforce gets?
1005-01-029-3866 is listed as Part no "653" .
1005-01-231-0973 is listed as part no 939, and is an M4 with burst. Basically the regular Army flattop M4. is that the correct interpretation? did the initial M4s have flattops or just A2 carry handles? I thought the flattop came along with the A1 designation and the full auto, but i guess there could have been a transitional period.
1005-01-376-7245 is listed as part no 727, and "Carbine, 5.56mm".

The the 1005-01-231-0973 is one of the NSNs used for the current flattop M4. I think its actually called, Rifle, 5.56mm though for some reason.

The 927 I have always understood to be the M4 with A2 sights. It depends on what source you look at, as some list the 927 as having an A1 upper (with deflector).

Posted: 8/5/2005 9:13:21 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Where will these carbines be now (the ones that DELTA used in '93)? Will they still be in Army circulation?

If they are, then not in their original configuration. The m4 type is on its like 2nd generation of issue (1995 M4A1s, 2001 M4A1HBs) for normal SOF units, and at least the 3rd or 4th for tier I and II units. Bushmasters being almosts 15 years old, have certainly been retired, especially when you consider how many rounds those guys shoot.

Posted: 8/5/2005 9:20:15 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Where will these carbines be now (the ones that DELTA used in '93)? Will they still be in Army circulation?

If they are, then not in their original configuration. The m4 type is on its like 2nd generation of issue (1995 M4A1s, 2001 M4A1HBs) for normal SOF units, and at least the 3rd or 4th for tier I and II units. Bushmasters being almosts 15 years old, have certainly been retired, especially when you consider how many rounds those guys shoot.

Might the recievers still be in service? I've read of some USAF guys carrying rifles with some very old lower markings on them.

Posted: 8/5/2005 9:21:36 AM EDT

[#44]

I am not up on the history.... But I do know for sure...

I had a Colt M4 upper in 1989 and a Bushmaster M4 upper shortly after....

no M4 feed ramp and no double heat shields. A2 upper. Pretty much a standard CAR with 14.5 inch M4 profile barrel.

Posted: 8/5/2005 9:32:28 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Might the recievers still be in service? I've read of some USAF guys carrying rifles with some very old lower markings on them.

The Army and USAF tend to deal with weapons differently. Its pretty easy to find old and modified M16s in the USAF, but harder to do with the Army.

I figure part of it has to do with the USAF spending more on their priority, which is aircraft. Its pretty easy to get parts through the system for CATM, but getting new weapons is a different matter.

Posted: 8/5/2005 9:45:12 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Might the recievers still be in service? I've read of some USAF guys carrying rifles with some very old lower markings on them.

The Army and USAF tend to deal with weapons differently. Its pretty easy to find old and modified M16s in the USAF, but harder to do with the Army.

I figure part of it has to do with the USAF spending more on their priority, which is aircraft. Its pretty easy to get parts through the system for CATM, but getting new weapons is a different matter.

Its always possible, but I doubt it. Sure they have refurbished and sent abroad as aid or something.. Dont know if the Army still takes old M16A1 receivers and recycles them into something else. Know they did this during the A2 era, but dont know about know.

The Bushmasters were possibly also a commercial off the shelf purchase.. While looking up NSNs, I found a local NSN for an "M-16A2 carbine".. Not sure what the Mil does with those when they are turned in.

The Air Force is still pulling AR-15s out of the box, so who knows.

Posted: 8/5/2005 2:22:40 PM EDT

[#47]

I think you are correct regarding the Bushmasters being COTS. I asked a former colleague about the the Bushmasters today. He is still on activity duty in the community. He said the Bushmasters were rebuilt in late 2001. Early 2002 they were sterilized by having their serial numbers removed by machining the numbers out of the mag wells. He said just the number s were removed on each weapon and barcodes were placed on the weapons for accountablty. At that time they were removed from the property books. Why this was done or who recevied the weapons are anyones guess.

Cheers

Posted: 8/5/2005 4:22:36 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The way it's COMMONLY interpreted (not saying this is by the book) is that:

Pre M4 carbines are referred to as CAR15s (even XM177E1 and E2)
"AR15 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any civillian AR15 type rifle
"M16 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any mil AR15 type rifle (even M4 and other carbines. M16A2 lower with an 11" barell is still an M16)
"Shorty" would designate any carbine with a bulett hose of around 11" or lower.

Am I about right?

M4's are M4.s, M16's are M16's… with an 11" barrel it's an M4 Commando

www.colt.com

Not if it was an 11" barrel in 1991 it wasn't (an M4 commando)

you sure like to talk alot- 10000 posts in 1-1.5 years? do you have AR15s in England?

Pay attention, … see that picture I posted a page back? that's an AR15, MY AR15…

So where is the 1991 reference in that post? and what the fuck's my post count got to do with owning an AR15?

If you haul your ass over to the UK Hometown you will see lots of British AR's…

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=5&t=193680

ANdy

you are looking for a 1991 reference in my post? I'm not trying to answer questions regarding 1991. I'm trying to decide whether you are the person to be answering any questions regarding a rifle you've only seen in pictures. If you are in the military, I apologize. If not, you obviously have read a lot and looked at a lot of pictures. Just didn't think you'd have time to read enough to know it all AND have time to make 10000 posts as well.

Posted: 8/5/2005 5:27:26 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
If I remember correctly some personnel from Delta and Joint Special Operations (JSOC) had Colt commercial/export CAR-15's with both light weight 14.5 barrels,and even a few with the M-4 type of barrel recessed for the m203. All the upper receivers had M16A1 sights and the M16A2 brass deflectors....................

Cheers!

So the way I have my latest build configured is the way some of the Delta guys had their weapons?

Posted: 8/5/2005 5:59:04 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The way it's COMMONLY interpreted (not saying this is by the book) is that:

Pre M4 carbines are referred to as CAR15s (even XM177E1 and E2)
"AR15 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any civillian AR15 type rifle
"M16 family of weapons" is the term used to commonly describe any mil AR15 type rifle (even M4 and other carbines. M16A2 lower with an 11" barell is still an M16)
"Shorty" would designate any carbine with a bulett hose of around 11" or lower.

Am I about right?

M4's are M4.s, M16's are M16's… with an 11" barrel it's an M4 Commando

www.colt.com

Not if it was an 11" barrel in 1991 it wasn't (an M4 commando)

you sure like to talk alot- 10000 posts in 1-1.5 years? do you have AR15s in England?

Pay attention, … see that picture I posted a page back? that's an AR15, MY AR15…

So where is the 1991 reference in that post? and what the fuck's my post count got to do with owning an AR15?

If you haul your ass over to the UK Hometown you will see lots of British AR's…

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=5&t=193680

ANdy

you are looking for a 1991 reference in my post? I'm not trying to answer questions regarding 1991. I'm trying to decide whether you are the person to be answering any questions regarding a rifle you've only seen in pictures. If you are in the military, I apologize. If not, you obviously have read a lot and looked at a lot of pictures. Just didn't think you'd have time to read enough to know it all AND have time to make 10000 posts as well.

That's very decent of you to permit me to post, I'll feel a lot better now when I walk back onto the base on Monday after I spent Sunday morning at the range shooting my AR…

You tried to 'out' the wrong guy, you might want to ask the other poster here about his ACTUAL hands on with any AR15 or M16…

ANdy

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Blackhawk Down carbine setup used by Delta (Page 2 of 3)

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