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Posted: 12/19/2003 7:38:59 PM EDT
I was about to order a Carbon 15 but....
Now since its a big company they don't care about the little mom & pop gun shops. The people that sold and promoted their products. Now if you want to place an order you have to spend a chunck of change or just don't bother them. They don't produce anything. Everything is farmed out and whoever is lowest gets the job. Now all their lowers are made in Utah. All they have is a bunch of assembly tables putting rifles together. Its sad when a company get to big they crap on the same people that made them what they are today...A marketing company.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:00:19 PM EDT
Interesting post. I could only speak from my personal opinion and I'm sure others will follow. Bushmaster is best bang for the buck.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:08:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 8:08:40 PM EDT by tivoli410]
Originally Posted By Womb-Raider: Interesting post. I could only speak from my personal opinion and I'm sure others will follow. [s]Bushmaster[/s] [red]Rock River Arms[/red] is best bang for the buck.
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I have a Bushmaster, sweet finish and sweet rifle. I've heard good things about RRA, and my next AR will be built from a RRA lower, but I have not had any personal experience with them. Bushmaster - Closest to an actual Military rifle, less expensive than Colt RRA - Close to actual Military rifle, if you get a chromed lined bore and chamber, priced slightly less than Bushy
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:22:25 PM EDT
If the SHTF, use a COLT. If the shit is not hitting the fan, use an RRA with a Bushmaster barrel. JMHO.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:25:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARs4EVER: Now if you want to place an order you have to spend a chunck of change or just don't bother them. They don't produce anything. Everything is farmed out and whoever is lowest gets the job.
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I am not understanding some of your post. You don't have to spend a lot to get your order, just cost plus shipping even if it's just a single firing pin. What more do you want them to do for you? They produce firearms, and sell parts, accessories, and tools - just like other companies. Do you think they are the only one who farms stuff out? Many major companies do. Not everyone can or wants to make produce all their products in house. As a matter of fact, I can think of very few who make ALL their own stuff. If you are getting what you want, at a reasonable price, quality, and service - what is there to complain about? I have no problem buying Bushmaster whatsoever, but opinions vary...
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:33:35 PM EDT
Well shit, I guess I had better sell the four BMs I have. I mean, they function 100% and fit and finish is great. BM supports the 2nd amendment, has great customer service, and actually cares what its customers are interested in seeing developed. I guess you could say that about other companies, but it would be false to say that about all of them. As I understand it, the Carbon 15 is held to more strict quality control standards now that they are built under the control of BM.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:42:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:42:53 PM EDT
The profesional ordnance Carbon 15 rifles were total pieces of crap, no matter how good your customer service is if your product is crap your company fails, as it did and as it should have. Not that Bushmaster is producing them perhaps they can save the product, by buiding in quality. Bushmasters service is good. They don't discount the price of thier rifles much because they can get full price for them so why discount? I agree that a Colt would be the best SHTF gun because in that situation you might have to abandon your rifle and that would be one no one would mind leaving behind.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:44:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:13:46 PM EDT
Why hell yeah buy a bushmaster. you can't go wrong with a XM15.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:22:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: I agree that a Colt would be the best SHTF gun because in that situation you might have to abandon your rifle and that would be one no one would mind leaving behind.
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[rofl]
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 10:59:32 PM EDT
So if I have A PWA I still have a RRA rifle right? Bob [:D]
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 11:03:29 PM EDT
Who said that? : )
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 3:19:39 AM EDT
They have the best reputation for customer service and the most choices in configurations.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 4:10:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AK_Mike:
Originally Posted By ARs4EVER: Now if you want to place an order you have to spend a chunck of change or just don't bother them. They don't produce anything. Everything is farmed out and whoever is lowest gets the job.
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I am not understanding some of your post. You don't have to spend a lot to get your order, just cost plus shipping even if it's just a single firing pin.
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If you look at them from a dealers standpoint...they would bend over backwards for you but now since they are big they don't want to deal with the little mom & pop gun shops anymore unless your gonna place a very large order. People think they are getting a bushmaster developed, machined and assembled. Thats not the case. They are just a parts buyer from whomever can produce the parts for the least so they can sell at max profit. There is other companies out there that make almost all their own parts in house. My point being why buy parts from a middle man? When you ask them a question like "when will you be doing a batch of M4 profile barrels?" Their reply sounds like they are the ones doing the machine work. How can other companies sell the same thing for 2 bills less? I'm not saying bushmaster is bad just trying to shed some light on a company that has gotten to big and forgotten about the little guy that helped them suceed.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 5:21:11 AM EDT
I recently bought a m4 I did a lot of research and narrowed it down to bushmaster vs colt. A bushmaster would have only saved me about 70bucks couldn't see the point my self. The only thing people bitch about with colt is the price you find all kinds of differant complants varying about bushmasters. Personaly It doesn't matter what brand you buy as long as the owner is satisfied.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 6:46:30 AM EDT
I don't care if their parts are made in Timbuktoo, Bushmaster will stand behind what they sell 100% and that's good enough for me.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 6:50:37 AM EDT
Here we go again it's Ford vs Chevy vs Chrysler....
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 7:20:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2003 7:21:42 AM EDT by M4arc]
People think they are getting a bushmaster developed, machined and assembled. Thats not the case. They are just a parts buyer from whomever can produce the parts for the least so they can sell at max profit. There is other companies out there that make almost all their own parts in house. My point being why buy parts from a middle man?
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Bushmaster makes all their parts in-house and their rifles are 100% mil-spec so where are you getting your information? [;D]
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 7:43:20 AM EDT
ARs4Ever, You need to get a clue on the realities of business. They can no long afford to deal with the small gunshops - it takes too much time and staff (i.e. it would raise costs). They would rather you buy from the distributers. The distributers place the large orders and the mom & pop shops buy from the distributers. That way BM has to deal with fewer orders/less paperwork. And YOU get a better deal on a rifle. Ever notice you can get the Bushmaster Rifles cheaper from a distributer than you can from the Manufacturer? That is the advantage of bulk buying. Now you can offer the product for less which benefits you AND your customer. Its a win-win-win situation. Its sad when a small business owner doesn't understand the basic concepts of a manufacturing business & the economy - its even sadder when they have to resort to talking trash about a company in an effort 'to get even'.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 7:48:40 AM EDT
I'm a new AR owner, and new to the forum, as you can tell by the posts. I purchased a BM after doing a little researce, and talking to some of the local shops here. WOW!! what a gun. I have had a small problem with a burr on the rear of the carrier that dinged up the buffer plate. After a couple emails to BM, followed up with a call to a direct person they gave me the # for, they asked me to ship the part back & they'll exchange it. I think they are very much customer and quality oriented. My next toy will be a BM also. Mike
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 7:56:03 AM EDT
After you look around and cut through the chase, he says,she says etc, Bushmaster is 2nd to none. [:D] TG, told yea that [:D]
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 8:19:13 AM EDT
Oh no, not another "GO BUSHMASTER" thread. [|)]
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 8:41:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2003 8:41:54 AM EDT by _DR]
Yep. Brand loyalty strikes again. Having been issued an M16A1 with a receiver made by GM's Hydramatic Transmission Division (still remember the stamp to this day)in 1982, I realize that the name brand does not in itself make a good or bad rifle. It is the quality of the components that is important. I like Bushmaster, but probably wont pay the premium for their rifles(though it is a qulaity product), I'm more likely just to order one of their Chrome-bore barrel groups, as the rest is about the same as everybody else. Everyone will air their own opinion, that is what makes this forum great.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 11:03:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By go8dalejr: The only thing people bitch about with colt is the price
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Guess you didn't do much research. Non-standard parts & shitty company politics come to mind. Look guys, each company has their strong & weak points. When buying a complete gun, Bushmaster is undeniably one of, if not the, best companies. RRA offers what, one chrome lined barrel? BM offers a quality product at a reasonable price. RRA and others (olympic?) charge less for a reason. If you option up one of their guns to be the same as a BM, you wind up with the same price. This really is one of the stupidest topics that comes up on this board. I guess the fact that BM gets attacked by more non-owners than the other brands shows what these topics are really about.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 12:10:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARs4EVER: If you look at them from a dealers standpoint...they would bend over backwards for you but now since they are big they don't want to deal with the little mom & pop gun shops anymore unless your gonna place a very large order. People think they are getting a bushmaster developed, machined and assembled. Thats not the case. They are just a parts buyer from whomever can produce the parts for the least so they can sell at max profit. There is other companies out there that make almost all their own parts in house. My point being why buy parts from a middle man? When you ask them a question like "when will you be doing a batch of M4 profile barrels?" Their reply sounds like they are the ones doing the machine work. How can other companies sell the same thing for 2 bills less? I'm not saying bushmaster is bad just trying to shed some light on a company that has gotten to big and forgotten about the little guy that helped them suceed.
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As a dealer, you need to look at it from a COMPANY'S standpoint. They are in business to make money, not do good or make other people money. Fooling with small orders or small runs of parts is simply not conducive to maximizing profits. Are you blaming them for trying to make as much money as they can? They are doing great business so they are obviously not upsetting enough small dealers to hurt themselves significantly at this point. It may suck for you, but imagine if you owned Bushmaster - would you want to cut down on profits just so you can ensure other dealers can make more money? If you did and I were a shareholder I would try to have you removed. People do NOT think they are getting products developed, machined, and assembled by Bushmaster - if they do they are ignorant. There is no need for developement, the M16/AR-15 was out long before Bushmaster/QFI ever came to be. They bought out the Carbon15 design. Some of their parts are developed by others such as YHM. They simply bring it altogether for sale as any other company might do. If they did all their own development, machining, and assembling, their stuff would have to cost even more to cover initial costs. Pretty much all the manufactures buy parts from others at low cost, that's how they can make money, and pass along a product at lower cost to the consumer - that's standard business practice. If you don't like buying from a "middleman", then follow your own advice and start buying parts from cheaper vendors and put your own stuff together, just like Bushmaster does. Others can sell the same thing for "2 bills less" cause they are using even cheaper sources and inferior parts in some cases. Those companies absolutely do not do all their own production or it would cost more. They are doing what Bushmaster does, only in a more severe fashion. Smaller companies also have less overhead than a large company like Bushmaster. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, but you are blaming Bushmaster for good business practice and trying to mislead customers which they are not - nowhere does it say or imply they make all their own products, they just claim their products are superior. Even Colt and FN outsource parts. All the smaller companies selling cheaper MOST definitely outsource all the parts - as cheap of source as they can find, which is not how Bushy does it - they are trying to maintain a certain level of quaility and specs that customers have come to appreciate (another good business practice). It's simply how large companies do business, and they way they became large. You can do the same. Most people would not want to have to go to dozens and dozens of vendors to get my parts and assemble their own rifle so Bushmaster does it for you. It's just like automobiles - they do the same thing, buy parts from others and assemble them for you. Not everyone wants to or can afford to make all their own parts. You sound like you were under the impression Bushmaster did, but again, just like automobiles, anyone who thinks each gun company does or can produce all their own parts is foolish. If they all did this, everything would cost so much more it would be ridiculous. We like it the way it is thank you. Again, yeah, still sucks for the small dealer. Mom and pops operations do not make a lot of money - conceed to it or make larger orders and grow your business larger like Bushmaster did. If you do, you will find it astronimically expensive to make your own parts so you will have to outsource, and it will not be very profitable for you to supply very small orders from small time dealers. It's just the way of things.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 12:13:34 PM EDT
"Why should I buy a bushmaster?" Because they build fine rifles for a decent price, AND stand behind them - THAT'S WHY!!! I'm very happy with my Bushmaster, and was treated VERY well when I did contact customer service - I'd buy another one... - georgestrings
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 12:25:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2003 1:23:48 PM EDT by Matt_B]
I just picked up a Bushmaster upper with an ARMS #40 on it. Stupid me didn't check to make the clamping screw was tight before I christened it. After shooting for awhile, I noticed the #40 was sliding around...because the clamping screw fell into the grass. I tried to find it but it was gone. Anyway, I called Bushmaster the next day and told them of my problem. I admitted it wa my fault for not checking it in the first place (I guess I was too caught up in getting my Aimpoint mounted) but I also told them that I was surprised the person that assembled the rifle didn't clamp it down tighter. I was hoping they would replace it for free since their tech didn't tighten it up enough at the factory but, if they were going to charge me for it, I would have accepted it and not been a least bit mad about it. It was my fault for not checking the screw in the first place. I figured it's my gun and I should make sure it's good to go before I fire a single round. The bottom line - they sent me a replacement for free without any hassle. I never asked for them to replace it for free - they offered. That's good customer service in my book. As far as their quality, they look as good as anything else and have a reputation for being just as reliable as anything else. YMMV
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 12:40:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By norman74:
Originally Posted By go8dalejr: The only thing people bitch about with colt is the price
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Guess you didn't do much research. Non-standard parts & shitty company politics come to mind. Look guys, each company has their strong & weak points. When buying a complete gun, Bushmaster is undeniably one of, if not the, best companies. RRA offers what, one chrome lined barrel? BM offers a quality product at a reasonable price. RRA and others (olympic?) charge less for a reason. If you option up one of their guns to be the same as a BM, you wind up with the same price. This really is one of the stupidest topics that comes up on this board. I guess the fact that BM gets attacked by more non-owners than the other brands shows what these topics are really about.
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Hell, I have nothing to say about this topic after this post. Pretty much sums up what I was about to say.
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