Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 12/13/2003 3:34:20 PM EDT
OK, I'm thinking of home defense weapons - possibly a shotgun or a handgun.

What I'm wondering about is the wisdom of putting a light on either.

Wouldn't the light BOTH give your position away AND give the BG something to aim at??

I'm thinking they are not such a good idea.

Thoughts??
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 3:43:32 PM EDT
this will start a HUGE thread, as it was discussed in the "if some one is in my home, should i just shoot them" thread. BUT, i PERSONALLY think you MUST identify your target BEFORE shooting... as too much can go wrong with a "shoot first and ask questions later" mentality. so to directly answer your question. a light is a GOOD idea, in my opinion. stainless
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 3:53:15 PM EDT
a light like a Surefire will blind(at least temporarily) your enemy anyway
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:15:18 PM EDT
When you illuminate your subject, your not keeping that light on the whole time. You turn it on when you are close enough to identify, shoot, and then turn it off to change your position, then back on to hit him/her a second time if needed. If you have a bright enough flashlight you'll blind him enough that he will not be able to properly shoot you.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:16:57 PM EDT
How do you know what you are shooting if you cant see it?
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:18:37 PM EDT
Have one demosntrated to you at a gun store. They are incredibly bright and are said to be nearly as effective as getting shot (obviously within reason) at stopping a person for just a moment so you can identify them or deter them so the leave.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:21:18 PM EDT
So, intended use is to approach target, then before firing, flip the light on, blinding him, and you identifying the target?? I had envisioned it being on the entire time.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:28:02 PM EDT
Yeah, you get as close as conditions will allow, flip it on and ID the target. You can have it on in situations where you would otherwise have a normal flashlight, but when sneaking around the house or where ever, they are indeed a "Here I am" signal.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:36:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 4:37:01 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: How do you know what you are shooting if you cant see it?
View Quote
Listen to Lumpy!
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:42:09 PM EDT
As was stated, this is a thread that can not be "settled" here. It is an argument that has gone on for years w/ reasons both for and against. It's important thoughto keep as much in context as possible. An "intruder" by nature has a much different mindset than a "soldier" of a foreign army. So not all arguemunets are valid when determining, in which case a tactical light is appropriate and/or advisable. Soldiers are motivated, trained and believe in their cause and ideally, their given objective. Perps. are [b]not[/b] soldiers. By nature, their bottom line objective is to avoid arrest. As such they chose "soft targets" by design. Alarms, etc. are not perp. proof. they are deterrents. Perps. will, in theor, pass up the hardened targets, for the soft ones. SO...when in an unfamiliar home, on unfamiliar turf, faced by an armed adversary, flight usually takes precedence over fight. You will be familiar w/ your area of operations, you will be aware of a foreign presence, the perp. may not find you "foreign" they don't know what to expect if anything. You will illuminate the threat, from behind cover, hopefully, the threat, completely surrounded by unfamiliarities, blinded, and shocked at being discovered in the 1st place will be at a tremendous disadvantage. Like a banger w/o sound the lumens putout by a 9cell SF will shock the $#!t out of an arrogant untrained perp. FREEZE, like a deer in headlights. Now, beyond that, will he/she simply react by laying fire in response to a threat, any threat? Many won't some dedicated few will. So following Murphy's laws, we prepared for the worst. You're behid cover. He/She lets several rounds loose. You breathe, squeeze and neutralize your identified threat. Nothing is 100% so don't worry so much about trying to assure it, that you fail to close the percentage gap in your own favor. CAN lights be a liability, sure in certain instances, but rarely in defensive postures, especially at home on familiar ground. Things can go wrong but your certainly better off / a light and not need it, than needing a light and not having it. /S2
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:49:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 5:02:25 PM EDT by _DR]
I think it is important, though, to have a bright tactical light that has momentary on so you can light em up when you need to, but not advertise "I'm here" until you are ready to identify/engage, then light them up with a touch of your supporting arm forefinger. A constant-on light would be a Dead giveaway, but a momentary-on tac light becomes the edge you need as a defender in the dark.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:58:12 PM EDT
I am another strong supporter of having a light for you home defense weapon. Once you decide if you want one or not, then comes the hard part. You will have to start worrying which light is best. [;)]
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 5:03:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut: I am another strong supporter of having a light for you home defense weapon. Once you decide if you want one or not, then comes the hard part. You will have to start worrying which light is best. [;)]
View Quote
I think Surefire or Streamlight are pretty much the best. I bought a relatively inexpensive Surefire G2 Nitrolon which really lights up a room for my HD carbine.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 5:05:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 5:08:00 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Lights need to be used sparingly. They should be strobed just to allow you to find your way and identify targets, and once the target is identified, to blind it until it complies or until you are done shooting.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 5:11:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR: I think it is important, though, to have a bright tactical light that has momentary on so you can light em up when you need to, but not advertise "I'm here" until you are ready to identify/engage, then light them up with a touch of your supporting arm forefinger. A constant-on light would be a Dead giveaway, but a momentary-on tac light becomes the edge you need as a defender in the dark.
View Quote
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Lights need to be used sparingly. They should be strobed just to allow you to find your way and identify targets, and once the target is identified, to blind it until it complies or until you are done shooting.
View Quote
100% dead on.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 6:00:20 PM EDT
I agree w/ Lumpy 100%. BTW, If you're using deceptive light techniques you do give the BG something to shoot at: The flashlight instead of your face. -Cap'n
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 6:11:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 6:12:52 PM EDT by bsbg]
Oh no, not again... Light, shoot (or not),then move is the way to stay alive (and out of jail for shooting your drunken neighbor).
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:07:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 7:08:50 PM EDT by Lee0302]
I brought my 600 series surefire classic to Iraq and attached it to my M-16A2. It has proven itself the most important firearm addition even more so than optics because building interiors are dark day or night. With a light, you can initiate CQB any time, all optics other than NVD will only allow aimed fire during day and low light. In 99% of all confrontations (whether military or civilian), target identification is critical. In a home defense scenario it is imperative. Too many dumb kids and winos have been senselessly shot when a nice muzzle tap would do. Worse yet is the situation of an unexpected family member or roommate who forgot to call before coming over. Its happend. So I say buying a tactical light (whether hand held or weapon mounted)goes in conjuction in deciding to use a firearm in home defense.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:26:48 PM EDT
Stick and move.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:39:50 PM EDT
Like the subject about foreward grips, I was skeptical until I got my hands on one. Once you have a weapons light shown in your face in the dark, you start to understand. Factor that in with understanding that it is only used momentarily, and to me it becomes an obvious asset.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:45:41 PM EDT
First, I have no idea of your shooting background, but with weapon-mounted-lights, following the 4 rules becomes about a 1000 times more important due to the muzzle also pointing where the light is pointing. Second, where the hell do you get a smiley in a F-14?????????????? Wes
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 8:52:40 PM EDT
OK, now that we have covered the basics, can someone explain to me the value of having colored filters on a tactical light? I have seen these come with several of them. Although I see the need for colored filters on handheld flashlights in tactical situations (such as mapreading under a poncho -red filter - to keep the ememy from spotting you) or signals, but on a weapon light? What would be the rationale for that?
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 9:55:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR: OK, now that we have covered the basics, can someone explain to me the value of having colored filters on a tactical light? I have seen these come with several of them. Although I see the need for colored filters on handheld flashlights in tactical situations (such as mapreading under a poncho -red filter - to keep the ememy from spotting you) or signals, but on a weapon light? What would be the rationale for that?
View Quote
detachable light and it could possibly be for double usage.. use it for a weapons light and then detach to use for whatever some lights have attachable IR filters.. to provide night vision usage
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:50:37 PM EDT
I have Surefire lights for all of my weapons, and played around with them in my house often. Once I used them in the field, and shot with them, I came to the conclusion that while needed, they are highly over rated. Have one, but don't spend alot of coin on it. ( like I did )
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:52:05 PM EDT
The Feb. 2004 issue of "Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement" has a large article that tackles this issue. Good read. - BUCC_Guy
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:53:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: How do you know what you are shooting if you cant see it?
View Quote
Duh! Nogs! [;D]
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:56:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: How do you know what you are shooting if you cant see it?
View Quote
Duh! Nogs! [;D]
View Quote
Didnt feel the need to clutter the issue with extra verbage [;)]
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 5:55:15 AM EDT
If you dont live with anyone else, and someone is inside EMPTY THE MAG! I woulden't use a light but thats me. I would rather try to figure out if he has a weapon in the dark, then flash him and see if he blows me away. If it's an enimy he will shoot at you first anyway because he broke in and knows you arent his friend.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 6:54:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JustL00king: If you dont live with anyone else, and someone is inside EMPTY THE MAG! I woulden't use a light but thats me. I would rather try to figure out if he has a weapon in the dark, then flash him and see if he blows me away. If it's an enimy he will shoot at you first anyway because he broke in and knows you arent his friend.
View Quote
Justlooking I have two friends who take this point of view also. Needless to say, I refuse to visit their house after dark, for obvious reasons.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 7:23:45 AM EDT
You did say home defense right? Not going into someone elses home? Light up your house with a $6 night light and shoot the bastard from the dark. Blind a burglar and he will shoot indiscriminently in the direction of the light. I hope you have steel walls or live alone. Shoot your local LEO who mistakenly broke into your house while you have your 120 lumnen light on and your one screwed up person. Theres not defense for I didn't know he wasn't a burglar with a gun. Spot him with the light and don't shoot, you are a dead man with a gun in his hand. It's a no win senario. Sorry, I like my Surefire but not in my house. Tj
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 5:05:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 6:58:42 PM EDT
Troy, I agree with all of your points but one... I'd LOVE to shoot the apartment maintenence guy, our damned dishwasher still doesn't work [devil] -Cap'n
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 7:51:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2003 7:52:44 PM EDT by WilleECoyote]
First I think not indentifying a target is a major liability. Second like was said above if you have it you don't have to use it. But if you want the light its there. Third a good light like Surefire is a major intimidation factor along with loud voice commands. Until you have seen it work you can not truely beleave. And if that does not work you have lethal force. It will hold up much better when you are read your miranda rights.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 8:03:54 PM EDT
Like stated earlier. Listen to Lumpy....... and agree with him! Lights be good!
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 10:24:39 PM EDT
Be sure to make your first shot a good one !!! Dose anyone else notice all of the smoke, or is it just me ?
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 1:17:59 AM EDT
Another person in agreement with Lumpy (in agreement on flashlights, not aimpoints [nana]).
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 1:34:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By knightone: Another person in agreement with Lumpy (in agreement on flashlights, not aimpoints [nana]).
View Quote
Somebody has to like them [):)]
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 3:15:56 AM EDT
Willie-Pete thrown in a nonrandom variation.......... [BD] Dave S
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 6:19:00 AM EDT
Guess I am late to this party. Werd to da Lumpster.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 6:58:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2003 7:09:06 AM EDT by SULACO2]
If you dont live with anyone else, and someone is inside EMPTY THE MAG!
View Quote
nonsense.
I woulden't use a light but thats me. I would rather try to figure out if he has a weapon in the dark, then flash him and see if he blows me away.
View Quote
You could try...
...Light up your house with a $6 night light and shoot the bastard from the dark.
View Quote
Mutual lighting, if you see him, he sees you. [b] "If it's an enimy he will shoot at you first anyway because he broke in and knows you arent his friend. " [/b] [b] Originally Posted By TomJefferson: "Blind a burglar and he will shoot indiscriminently in the direction of the light. I hope you have steel walls or live alone." [/b] Most burglars are not interested in escalating the charge against them to felonious homicide, or homicide not w/ previous intent, but committed during the act of a felony. And the idea is, to defend an already established position, 1 hopefully that has been hardened. 1 that allows you to view and cover your target while maintaining as much cover as possible, he should stumble into a position that does not allow him to even know your their, let alone get a shot off. You really think, once your sight picture is acquired, and you illuminate your target, there's a chance of him shooting at an as yet unforeseen target before you squeeze off a round at a target you already have sighted in? [b] Originally Posted By TomJefferson: "Shoot your local LEO who mistakenly broke into your house while you have your 120 lumnen light on and your one screwed up person. Theres not defense for I didn't know he wasn't a burglar with a gun. Spot him with the light and don't shoot, you are a dead man with a gun in his hand. It's a no win senario." [/b] Right because most LEOs, shoot at flashlights in a home that they know might contain, innocents that are as surpirsed by his/her presence as he is at theirs. Most LEOs, most w/ at least a minor amount of shoot/no shoot training, will "turn and burn" on an unidentified target in an area possibly full w/ friendlies, there's no assumption the LEO is looking to arrest the home owner and everyone in the home, and/or that the LEO has any suspicion there's a threat to anyone's safety in the home. In response to jobs UCs sometimes respond w/ uniform, in addition to other means provided the uniformed officer for identifying another member of service is the use of cover. It will buy the uniform time to ID and threat and react, or fail to accordingly. The use of cover will enable the defender to ID a threat w/o "needing" to shoot and will prevent the "threat" or PO in this case, from shooting at a law abiding citizen, defending his/her home. Lights over shooting in the dark any day of the week.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 8:09:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: Light up your house with a $6 night light and shoot the bastard from the dark.
View Quote
Light the way for the bad guy - but provide insufficient light for ID and YOU can shoot a loved one accidentally.
Blind a burglar and he will shoot indiscriminently in the direction of the light.
View Quote
Geeze make a sound and might shoot indiscriminatly toward the sound. If I'm already blinding him with my light my rounds will be on target before he can raise his weapon to fire (action beats reaction - if my light is on him then all I have to do is squeeze).
Shoot your local LEO who mistakenly broke into your house while you have your 120 lumnen light on and your one screwed up person.
View Quote
And the reason why you are screwed up is you didn't properly ID the target before firing. You deserve to be screwed.
Theres not defense for I didn't know he wasn't a burglar with a gun. Spot him with the light and don't shoot, you are a dead man with a gun in his hand.
View Quote
Shoot a cop in the dark without IDing him and you are in just as bad a situation. Prosecuter: "Mr. Jefferson - explain to us again why you shot at a target you couldn't identify. Doesn't that violate basic safety rule #4? What if that has been a family member? yada-yada-yada". With a light you CAN identify (and blind) the target - you have a choice in what you do. Shooting in the dark you are crossig your fingers and hoping it was a bad guy (and not your kid comming in late and wearing a walkman so they didn't hear you)...
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 8:33:24 AM EDT
1. ID your target. 2.use light to make SURE it's friend or foe 3.If it's a foe identify,foe,identify weapon, take necessary action. 4. Blind him. 5.) Flick light on then move. Most important accessory for a defensive firearm.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 8:54:36 AM EDT
If your weapon light is giving you/your position away, then you [u]don't[/u] know what you are doing. [noclue]
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 9:35:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2003 9:38:23 AM EDT by TomJefferson]
Funny stuff.......light question aside.... Do some of you really believe if the cops break your door down in the middle of the night and you have a gun in your hand you won't be shot?.......or you have a gurantee a burglar who breaks into a house at night is not prepared to shoot someone? I don't care what the odds are they aren't good enough. You break into my house at night, first the dogs will go nuts, I will SEE YOU in my hall light, and you will be shot and all you will see is the muzzle flash if that. Like it or not a tactical light is an answer but not the only answer. I keep one on each side of my bed and will use senario dependent. Only answers are only tactics and limited. Tj
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 10:04:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2003 10:34:37 AM EDT by SULACO2]
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: Do some of you really believe if the cops break your door down in the middle of the night and you have a gun in your hand you won't be shot?.......or you have a gurantee a burglar who breaks into a house at night is not prepared to shoot someone? Tj
View Quote
Oh you mean like during the service of a warrant, when there's many of them all w/ their own lights, all yelling "POLICE!!! get on the ground!!!"? I'm sure that's the same scenario we were all thinking about when concerned w/ confusing a solo PO in your home, w/ a burglar who by design is attempting to move stealthily. I know I'm worried about the police "breaking my door down" and not knowing the police have made entry until they're already in, creeping around my 1st floor. Sure, That happens. If your contention is that their are other ways to illuminate a burglar, ie. a hallway light, or a night light, maybe, I think our conversation was pertaining to situations where other or insufficient light sources were not available. Tell 'ya what, why not just make this scenario high noon, outdoors, instead of at night w/ your lights on? /S2
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 11:14:02 AM EDT
The application of 125+ lumens from a Surefire is going to temporarily stun someone who thought up until then they were being stealthy. They are going to have 3 reactions: freeze like a deer in headlights, run, or present a weapon. In ANY case, my weapon is now directly indexed on him, and if I've got my shit wired correctly, my action will beat his reaction any day. This is REALLY getting over analyzed.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 12:08:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: The application of 125+ lumens from a Surefire is going to temporarily stun someone who thought up until then they were being stealthy. They are going to have 3 reactions: freeze like a deer in headlights, run, or present a weapon. In ANY case, my weapon is now directly indexed on him, and if I've got my shit wired correctly, my action will beat his reaction any day. This is REALLY getting over analyzed.
View Quote
In most states, if not all, while you are not legally required to retreat within your own home to avoid using deadly force, you are nevertheless legally obligated to reasonably be in fear for your life to justify using deadly force. If you fail to make a reasonable effort to identify your target before firing, you may very likely be charged with a criminal violation (such as aggravated assault or manslaughter). That call is usually left up to the District Attorney, not the officers, so if you have an anti-gun, politically ambitious DA, you can draw your own conclusions. And even if you are not charged criminally, you can safely rest assured that you will be sued in civil court for a large amount of money. Think a perp can't prevail in a civil case? Guess again....And if the person shot happens to be innocent of any criminal intent (drunk, Alzheimer patient, child, mistaken address, etc.), you will likely lose your home, your savings, and your future earnings. Do I agree with Lumpy? Absolutely. Do I have a tac light on all the long guns I use for duty or home defense? Absolutely. Do I have a handheld SureFire to use with the handguns? Absolutely. The advantages of having a light FAR outweigh the disadvantages.......
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 1:44:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: Do some of you really believe if the cops break your door down in the middle of the night and you have a gun in your hand you won't be shot?
View Quote
Yes. What if the cop is walking into the house after noticing the front door is open. Or the cop is comming into your house to feed the cats because they just got off shift - and didn't get you message that you were comming home early? (yes my neighbor is a cop and we watch each other's pets when the other is away).
.......or you have a gurantee a burglar who breaks into a house at night is not prepared to shoot someone?
View Quote
Shoot! I can't gurantee the sun will come up tomorrow and now you want me to gurantee the mindset of a criminal? All I know is when I strobe the target my gun is already locked on. As we've said before action beats reaction, and surprise is a wonderful thing.
I don't care what the odds are they aren't good enough.
View Quote
And the tactical light allows you to stack the odds in your favor even more.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 1:44:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: The application of 125+ lumens from a Surefire is going to temporarily stun someone who thought up until then they were being stealthy. They are going to have 3 reactions: freeze like a deer in headlights, run, or present a weapon. In ANY case, my weapon is now directly indexed on him, and if I've got my shit wired correctly, my action will beat his reaction any day. This is REALLY getting over analyzed.
View Quote
Words of Wisdom!
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 1:56:03 PM EDT
Let say this person breaks in your house and goes to your circuit breakers and turns of your POWER and sneeks into your room then you blind they person with a light, if he moves in the wrong way BANG dead perosn and you get to see the blood go everywhere with a light. [torch] YOU WILL NEVER KNOW UNTIL THAT TIME COMES.
Link Posted: 12/15/2003 7:14:24 PM EDT
Well I did a little experiment tonight. I had BillyTheKid take an airsoft and the surefire to either end of the hall, killed my hall night light, and advised him to use the light and shoot me as soon as he recognized me and kill the light. I on the other hand would count to 2, one thousand one etc. for the element of surprize and shoot. He did not hit the light till I was in the hallway. He's mad at me for plugging him with the air soft before he got a shot off. IMHO, Eitherway it wasn't a good senario for either party could have went eitherway depending on where I was standing and where he shined the light first. I guess size of the hallway is an element since the 6P is one bright ass light. Answers to posts, my cop friends would have the dogs happy to see them not raising hell. Serving a warrant I have a door bell and will welcome them in and give them coffee. The first thing the door banger criminals yell here when they break in is police. What do you expect them to yell crooks grab your gun. Not all night break ins are sneak thiefs. BTW we don't get too many LEO door bangs here since we really have some decent cops. In the 13 years I've lived here I know of not one mistake or even a shooting as a result of such a warrant. My house is not an apartment and yelling outside my door the dogs would be the only one to hear it. Also agreed without my hallway night light, my surefire would be the second thing I grab after my gun. BTW, my motherinlaw comes in at all hours and have never pulled a gun on her. I know the sounds she makes and the dogs do to. Since the Army and one incident with a sneak burglar while at home I sleep light as a feather. I also have double motion detector floods on each corner of my house. Yes I've had this happen once and is why I have dogs now. Like it or not I would rather be tried by 12 than my familly carried by six. It's my house and you have no rights if univited and yes you will be found with a weapon in your hand. All I've said is that the surefire is an answer but not the only answer. I'm sorry if I offended anyones since of there is only one answer to any question. Tj
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top