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Posted: 11/25/2003 8:18:56 PM EDT
I've got a 20" Hbar Colt upper on an el cheapo lower and a cheap SAR-1. I'm planning to test their reliability in various adverse conditions. I'm planning to dump beach sand all over/in the rifles in their ready conditions. (mags loaded, rounds chambered, dust covers closed) I'm also going to bury them in the snow for awhile. The ammo I'm planning to run is XM193 for the AR and Wolf for the AK. I'll start with a clean/un or minimally lubed rifle. I heard all kinds of crap like the Jessica Lynch account of a hopelessly jammed M16 and other stuff like that and am really interested in a test with PROPERLY maintained rifles. Anyone care to take a bet on the results? Is anyone really interested in these results or am I just doing this for my own peace of mind? Anyhow my prediction is the AK should fare better in sand but the AR will not be completely disabled. The snow should be interesting, the AK again should have an edge but who knows. The rifles will be prepared as I would take them in the particular environment. Lets see what happens! I should be able to pull this off in the next 2 weeks if anyone's interested.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:52:17 PM EDT
I am a Pro M16/AR15 person. I like AK's also. I will never say the AR is more reliable in adverse conditions vs the AK. Thats the AK's Strong point. But the AR/M16 is reliable anough to get the job done and done well. I can't wait to see your outcome.WarDawg
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:03:40 PM EDT
Hey, I think it's great that you're willing to do this and share with the rest of us! FWIW, one thing about the desert sand is that it's like talcum powder - real dry and real fine. What kind of el cheapo lower are you using? Can't wait for the results! My $'s on the AK.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:28:57 PM EDT
You are a braver man than I am Mr45 [:)] I wouldn't mind sacrificing my SKS for a good cause, but I'd never intentionally fill one of my ARs with sand [8)]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:14:17 PM EDT
Desert sand is finer than beach sand...maybe you could get some light river sand? Not much snow down here in the south, but I got lotsa mud. I wonder if you could add dunking the rifles into the river silt or maybe stepping on them in the mud for a few minutes. Kinda reminds me of the Glock ads! Thanks for using your rifles for the test!
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:23:27 PM EDT
I look forward to hearing the results! [:)]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:35:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 10:36:41 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:36:20 PM EDT
There were a few video clips on the gunsnet ak forum a while back of some guys totally beating the shit out of their rifles. They were throwing their rifles in a creek, then bump firing drums worth of ammo! Here is a link to the page although unfortunately the links are dead [:(] http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125275
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:55:08 PM EDT
Neat idea for a test! Post lots of pics please!! Im votin AK but who knows...
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 4:20:02 AM EDT
I love both the AK and the AR. My friend absolute hates the AR and we decided to try something out. I live down the street from an out side range. I also volunteer there and teach NRA safety courses. I have been a member for alost 15 years. I have spent countess number of weekend shooting and helping people. Yes, helping people. I have help from clearing jams to remounting front sights. About five years ago my friend and I decided to count every AR fix and AK fix we performed. In five years we have nailed it. Here was our conclusion: If there are three AR's at the range one of the three AR's will have some kind of malfunction. Most common was failure to extract. AK's were almost impossible to track. We only recorded two malfunctions in five years with an AK. One was a MADDI with American parts. The other was a Chinese that the bolt was jamming. That was my friends Chinese, AK, I forgot to mention it was not cleaned in four years! I have seen a few failure to fire, but it was ammo induced. We concluded that out of a 1000 rds there will be less then ten fail to fire with the AK. With surplus AR ammo there is almost zero fail to fire. AR ammo was almost always more reliable. Almost all people shoot with Russian steel ammo. I expect this would be different if Norinco ammo was still around. I never had a problem with Norinco ammo. I found South African surplus ammo, both in AK (brass) and AR to be outstanding.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 4:22:59 AM EDT
tagged
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 5:29:00 AM EDT
This sounds great! At our range, ARs out perform AKs by far.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 7:52:18 AM EDT
can't wait fot the results! should be interesting... Dagger
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 8:08:55 AM EDT
Armalite already did all those tests with the ar15 and ar10, covered in beach sand, frozen in liquid nitrogen, submerged in muddy water, and as long as the ejection port cover was closed it dident jam. It fired flawless after every test, the videos are (or were) on armalites website.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 9:24:51 AM EDT
Don't forget the accuracy tests too. [LOL]
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 9:27:29 AM EDT
My bet will be that the AK will fare better, but the AR will perform far better than many people think. Use lubricant sparingly, keep the dust cover closed, and the thing won't be that far behind the AK. If you do the snow thing (or even the sand), make sure that nothing gets inside the bore (with either rifle). Cover it before burying them, into anything. May not be the most realistic test this way, but will add some safety, both for you and your rifles.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 9:30:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ridge: Don't forget the accuracy tests too. [LOL]
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Damn you! You made me spit root beer all over my keyboard!!!!!
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 9:34:15 AM EDT
I dont own an AK, but after dealing with my AR today, FTEject. I found that the culprit was a very dirty rifle (1000rds of no cleaning), In SHTF, ya may go through this or more and not have time to clean, For reliabilty its AK, as far as ACcuracy, I would like to see a side-by-side test to see if the AR is truely more accurate. let us know how the test goes.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 9:48:02 AM EDT
IMO the AR is better protected sand wise than the AK, with the port cover closed, lil sand should find it's way in to the AR receiver. That big gap/space the AK has so the charging handle can be pulled all the way back, doesn't seem all that sand prove, so it's a given, more sand will find it's way into the AK receiver. We'll see how both do. My bucks on the AR! HUNTER.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 9:55:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2003 10:02:32 AM EDT by Dano523]
Here is the true test. Put a paper plate at 200 yards and use it to test the weapons for problems. When the weapon can no longer keep it's groups on the plate, the rifle is no longer useful, and be it a FTF, FTE, or just plain inaccuratecy, due to needing to be cleaned, the weapon is considered problematic and out of the challenge. Just because you can still spray the area (not hit what your shooting at), doesn't mean that the AK is the favorable design. If you watched any of the Iraq war, then you will remember the interview of the solder commenting on the fact that the Iraq solders were firing at them, but seemed that they were poor marksmen, because they were never hit by AK fire, only RPG fire.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 9:58:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HUNTER223: IMO the AR is better protected sand wise than the AK, with the port cover closed, lil sand should find it's way in to the AR receiver. That big gap/space the AK has so the charging handle can be pulled all the way back, doesn't seem all that sand prove, so it's a given, more sand will find it's way into the AK receiver. We'll see how both do. My bucks on the AR! HUNTER.
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Same here!
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 2:30:37 PM EDT
The AK's safety lever covers most of that area, much like the AR's dust port.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 2:42:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HUNTER223: IMO the AR is better protected sand wise than the AK, with the port cover closed, lil sand should find it's way in to the AR receiver. That big gap/space the AK has so the charging handle can be pulled all the way back, doesn't seem all that sand prove, so it's a given, more sand will find it's way into the AK receiver. We'll see how both do. My bucks on the AR! HUNTER.
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Yes, but from what I have heard/read, the AK doesn't care that there is sand in there. There are grooves machined in the receiver that channel the sand/crap/whatever away from the chamber. Combined with the loose construction of the receiver, the sand doesn't do as much damage as in a closer tolerances/clearances receiver like the AR, M14, etc.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 3:37:47 PM EDT
The muzzles of both rifles will be covered for safety reasons and of course both dust covers closed. As far as accuracy with the AK I'd be damned lucky to hit a paper plate at 200 yards with the crappy sights as it is. I'm not really addressing the accuracy issues as even the diehard AK fans will concede that to the AR. This is primarily a function test. This uses two well broken in examples of the typical good guy and bad guy rifles. (no offense to the AK crowd)
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 4:26:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By die-tryin: I dont own an AK, but after dealing with my AR today, FTEject. I found that the culprit was a very dirty rifle (1000rds of no cleaning), In SHTF, ya may go through this or more and not have time to clean, For reliabilty its AK, as far as ACcuracy, I would like to see a side-by-side test to see if the AR is truely more accurate. let us know how the test goes.
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I have well exceeded 1000 rounds and had no problems. I suggest you replace your extractor spring and possibly your ejector spring.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 7:33:10 PM EDT
Maybe I have a magic AK but my SLR-95 will hit a six inch circle at 200 yards no problemo with iron sights. I also shoot at a midget sized steel target at 300 yards and hit 8 out of 10 shots (bout the same as my AR)
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 7:47:14 PM EDT
Yea I would love to see the results but don't trash your rifles on my account. FREE
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 10:19:56 AM EDT
Ok no doubt both AR-15 and the AK-47 are great rifles BUT if you were to ask the Question of which rifle would you choose to fight in any war in any location? I would ABSOLUTELY take my AR over my AK, reason being for one you can accualy mount optics on the AR, I love the rail systems that you can get for the AR, IMO AR are easier to clean, IMO there more accurate, you can get diffrent lenght uppers and change them out much easier, just to mention a few. But at the same time the AK wins a few rounds in this match. Oh Hell I guess god gave us two shoulders one for the AR and one for the AK And a round hip for a 9mm,.45,.40,.357sig, in the Beretta, SIG, Hk, and the good ol' 1911 Ohh wait i forgot the ankles
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