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Posted: 11/14/2003 7:37:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2003 7:47:48 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
I know the 11.5" with the 5.5" flash hider was used.

But were there any 16" CAR barrels in the mix?

Any pics?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 7:45:44 PM EDT
Yes No pics though.
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 9:12:54 PM EDT
I seriously doubt that any 16 inch barrels were used in Vietnam. Unless some GI got a SP1 Carbine barrel assembly and took it with him. Maybe some 14.5 inch barrels at the end of the war. When did the Colt 653 come into existence?
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 9:25:34 PM EDT
So what's the purpose of having a 11.5 inch barrel and a 5 inch suppressor? Isn't that combining the longer length of a 16 inch with the lower velocity of the 11.5? Kind of the worst of both worlds... right?
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 11:03:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Luckystiff: I seriously doubt that any 16 inch barrels were used in Vietnam. Unless some GI got a SP1 Carbine barrel assembly and took it with him. Maybe some 14.5 inch barrels at the end of the war. When did the Colt 653 come into existence?
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Huh? The 14.5" M4 barrel was much later after the vietnam war.
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 11:04:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2003 11:06:53 PM EDT by David_Hineline]
It was not a 5" flash hider. It was a sound moderator which reduced the noise level of the round. Original ones require they are registered as silencers. It's the civilian market that re-designed them into just flash hider rather than also reducing the sound levels. There is a cutaway picture of a XM177 moderator on this link. [url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/muzzledevices.msnw[/url]
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 11:29:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/14/2003 11:29:28 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: It was not a 5" flash hider. It was a sound moderator which reduced the noise level of the round. Original ones require they are registered as silencers. It's the civilian market that re-designed them into just flash hider rather than also reducing the sound levels. There is a cutaway picture of a XM177 moderator on this link. [url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/muzzledevices.msnw[/url]
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This?: [img]http://groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nJwAAAJILRbpzYlQz*vmVKKb0uCvXjlGzNul0TSSoSYLE­qO4CUBRXRpu9CiX01alSalouUUxoiqI[/img] IF that was the original issue, the slots at the end would have been for hiding flash,no?
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 12:11:35 AM EDT
Yeah, combination flash supressor and sound moderator.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 1:13:11 AM EDT
A silencer is typically the best design for a flash hider there is.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 6:03:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Luckystiff: I seriously doubt that any 16 inch barrels were used in Vietnam. Unless some GI got a SP1 Carbine barrel assembly and took it with him. Maybe some 14.5 inch barrels at the end of the war. When did the Colt 653 come into existence?
View Quote
You may be right about the 16" barrel length. I know Colt experimented with them in the early 60's but I don't know if they made it over. I was thinking of the rifles with the 14.5" barrels and I think they even had some with 15" barrels. The original supressor on the XM177E2 was 4.5" in length.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 7:36:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2003 7:38:18 AM EDT by DougR]
This link is interesting: [url]http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/XM_177.htm[/url] Specifications of the XM-177E2 5.56mm SMG: Length . . . . . 30 inches (stock retracted), 33 inches (stock extended) Weight . . . . . 5.9 pounds Barrel . . . . . 11.5 inches Caliber . . . . 5.56x45mm NATO (.223 Remington) Feed . . . . . 20 or 30 round magazine Muzzle Velocity . . . 2,995 feet per second Cyclic Rate . . . . . 750 rounds per minute I couldn't find anything about 16" though.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 9:14:40 AM EDT
Colt did develop a 16-inch M16 as a part of their proposed CAR-15 family of weapons in the mid-1960’s. Below is a photo of the prototype. AFAIK, it was never actually manufactured for the military. [image]photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?sAccountUnq=11633&iGalleryUnq=179&iImageUnq=19787[/image]
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 9:32:57 AM EDT
I found an original GI 16" barrel at the Reno, NV. gun show (at the Hilton)in September. It was new in foil wrap and cosmoline. The guy selling it wanted $320. It did not have the gas tube, front sight, or flash suppressor. He said the 3 prong was the original suppressor for that barrel. I believe it was a 1:7 twist. It had something unusual stamped on the barrel but I cannot remember what it was now.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 9:51:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WARDOG7366: I found an original GI 16" barrel at the Reno, NV. gun show (at the Hilton)in September. It was new in foil wrap and cosmoline. The guy selling it wanted $320. It did not have the gas tube, front sight, or flash suppressor. He said the 3 prong was the original suppressor for that barrel. I believe it was a 1:7 twist. It had something unusual stamped on the barrel but I cannot remember what it was now.
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W.Dog, probably a 1:9 twist. The 1:7 insanity didn't come in until the SAW was introduced. [b]Anyone remember when the SAW was first issued ????[/b] 5sub
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 9:58:41 AM EDT
Late eighties, with the special "parkerized bore"...[:)]
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 10:43:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DougR: This link is interesting: [url]http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/XM_177.htm[/url] Specifications of the XM-177E2 5.56mm SMG: Length . . . . . 30 inches (stock retracted), 33 inches (stock extended) Weight . . . . . 5.9 pounds Barrel . . . . . 11.5 inches Caliber . . . . 5.56x45mm NATO (.223 Remington) Feed . . . . . 20 or 30 round magazine Muzzle Velocity . . . 2,995 feet per second Cyclic Rate . . . . . 750 rounds per minute I couldn't find anything about 16" though.
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Just called a friend who was Army Special Forces in Vietnam in 1966 and 1967.......he does NOT recall any 16" carbines. Said there was so much stuff around that there well could have been but he doesn't remember seeing any. This guy's weapon was the XM-177 as DougR has posted above. 5sub
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 10:57:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U:
Originally Posted By Luckystiff: I seriously doubt that any 16 inch barrels were used in Vietnam. Unless some GI got a SP1 Carbine barrel assembly and took it with him. Maybe some 14.5 inch barrels at the end of the war. When did the Colt 653 come into existence?
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Huh? The 14.5" M4 barrel was much later after the vietnam war.
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M4, the Colt 653 is or was a 14.5", pencil thin, 1/12 twist, A1, carbine. I forget now when it began seeing it's limited issue. I THINK it was the 80's though. Colt-653 is our 653 expert. Thanks.....Chad
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 2:19:17 PM EDT
I have never seen a photo of or read of a 16" M16 variant ever used in Vietnam. The carbine versions were all 10" or the later 11.5 with the Colt moderator/flash supressor.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 2:43:00 PM EDT
Not sure of the nomenclature of the critter but did pack along a short barrel, short stock M16 (M15?) on the O2 Cessna forward air controller back in 1970 out of Phan Rang.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 2:46:49 PM EDT
XM177
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 3:36:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 5:20:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2003 5:21:01 PM EDT by 2IDdoc]
SF used a few commercial non-issue weapons. There was even one guy I read about that used a lever action rifle a few times. "Mad Dog", was his nick name. [img]http://www.geocities.com/luvboxerz/maddog/mad_dog.bmp[/img] Jerry"Mad Dog" Shriver. MIA. This guy is a true SF legend. The real deal.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 5:54:57 PM EDT
I have a list of Colt models by model number with a discription of the model from the old AR15.com that I printed out a few years back. I can not find it here now. I guess it got nuked. Any way I checked the list and found: 1. Colt model number 605a as being described as an M16 carbine, 16" barrel, ??? twist, forward assist, auto, ??? suppressor, bayo lug, and fixed stock. 2. 605b - same as above but with 3 round burst. 3. 645 & 655 - Colt carbine, 16" barrel, ??? twist, ??? suppressor and collapsable stock. What the list did not have are years of production or years the different models were first instroduced. I have looked around and have been unable to locate the list here.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 6:14:20 PM EDT
On page 40 of "The Complete AR-15/M16 Sourcebook" by Duncan Long is a picture of the Colt 605a. It is basicaly an A1 dissapator with a 15" barrel. Per Long the 645 was the first M16A2 style production rifle. I was marked "M16A1". And the 655 was a sniper rifle built around the M16A1. Neither sound like they were Carbines or that they had 16" barrles. So forget my other post.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 6:24:46 PM EDT
So cool, we've covered some obscure tool room models. The fact remains, no 16" M16 was ever issued to troops of the United States Army, even in limited quantities, let alone in Vientnam. Once again, only 20" M16, M16E1, and M16A1s as well as 10" and 11.5" XM177 models were ever issued in Vietnam.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 7:22:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2003 10:25:14 PM EDT by Colt-653]
No 16" bbls were used in Vietnam nor were there any 14.5" used. Colt started the R&D on the 14.5" pencil bbl in 1970 but didn't start production till 1973....Vietnam was over for all intents and purposes. The only Colt made carbines used in Vietnam were the following: Colt Model 607 (about 50+/-) Colt Model 609/XM177E1/XM177( about 2500+) Colt Model 629/ XM177E2(3000+) There were some Colt A1's that had there bbls cut down in the field, but they were not factory built. A lot of the Colt CAR-15 carbines and rifles were tool room guns and were never issued. The Colt 653(M16A1 carbine 14.5" thin bbl) wasn't procured by the US military(USA,US Navy, and USAF) until 1975/76, and then only in limited numbers. It was superseded by the Colt model 723 and then the XM4 starting in 1988. Most of the 653's were updated with 14.5" pencil 1/7 bbls as they became available. Colt did supply some of the 1/12 16" thin bbl's by mistake to the USAF and the US Navy when they were retro fitting older XM177/GAU-5's back in the early 1980's, but it's rare to find one. Maybe 40 bbl total. The Colt Sp1 carbine didn't reach the market till the end of 1978 so there is no way a US GI took one to Vietnam.
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 8:44:24 AM EDT
[blue]Maybe this guy was FOS and just looking for a sucker (like many at gunshows). Thanks to the die hard members I am better informed.[/blue]
Originally Posted By WARDOG7366: I found an original GI 16" barrel at the Reno, NV. gun show (at the Hilton)in September. It was new in foil wrap and cosmoline. The guy selling it wanted $320. It did not have the gas tube, front sight, or flash suppressor. He said the 3 prong was the original suppressor for that barrel. I believe it was a 1:7 twist. It had something unusual stamped on the barrel but I cannot remember what it was now.
View Quote
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 6:37:32 PM EDT
Thanks for the help in getting my answer!
Link Posted: 11/16/2003 6:48:59 PM EDT
In the movie Platoon, a few of the squad leaders was using the 16". [:D] TG
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 6:30:43 AM EDT
Luckystiff: Was the table of AR15 variants you're looking for something like this? http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/variants/
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:10:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By blikbok: Luckystiff: Was the table of AR15 variants you're looking for something like this? [url]http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/variants/[/url]
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Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:28:26 AM EDT
That's it!!
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 12:16:01 PM EDT
I was in RVN with the 1st Cav Div ("B" 5/7) during all of 1970. There were no [b]16"[/b] barrelled AR/M16's of any sort issued at that time. The standard fare was the M16A1. We did have the XM177E1 which had a 10" barrel with a "suppressor". It wasn't really a suppressor, but sort of a noise attenuator. It had a collapsable stock, A1 carry handle w/ windage-only rear site, and a teardrop forward assist. No case deflector.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:35:54 PM EDT
Here's a pic of the copy of the XM177E2 I make: [img]http://www.tacticsrange.com/DCP_0245.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:54:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Colt-653: Here's a pic of the copy of the XM177E2 I make: [url]http://www.tacticsrange.com/DCP_0245.JPG[/url]
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Damn that's a sweet looking rifle. Thanks for sharing the pic and a good way for this thread to spend its 1-month anniversary! [beer]
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:56:55 PM EDT
Do you have to have a class 3 to buy the moderator, and how much sound is reduced ?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:18:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KZ45: Do you have to have a class 3 to buy the moderator, and how much sound is reduced ?
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No C-III is needed. But either it has to be welded on or you must haves your rifles SBR'ed via BATFE Form 1. It doesnt really lower the noise too much though.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:41:56 PM EDT
A true XM177 Moderator is considered a suppressor per BATF&E and is subject to the NFA class three laws. If you just want the look you can get an 11.5 inch barrel with a pinned / welded 5.5 inch flash hider. Over all length is 16 inches. OR you can get an 11.5 inch barrel and a 4.5 inch copy of the original moderator that does not have the baffels (No baffels = No suppressor) in it from Bushmaster and SBR your AR. The original XM177 moderator was designed to reduce the sound of the 10 and 11.5 inch barrles of the XM177 to that of the 20 inch M16.
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