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Posted: 11/6/2003 4:26:53 PM EDT
I own several Bushmaster ARs, in various configurations, and the one common denominator they all share is at one time or another they have all jammed. Different ammo,different mags, different way of holding my mouth when I fire, they've all jammed at one time or another. My SA M7 & Romainian AK's have never failed me, but I just for whatever reason like the AR better.
My question: I'm seriously thinking about buying the Colt 6400 M4 knockoff, as its a chrome lined barrel etc and supposedly the closest one can get to the real thing.
Can I expect the occasional jam out of the Colt as well, is it just the nature of the beast that the AR enthusiast just has to live with? Are Colts ANY more reliable? I know RRA is good Armalite etc but I've decided if I'm gonna invest in another AR it will be Colt, as I think Bushmaster leads the pack in the "other" brands.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 5:13:25 PM EDT
Ooooo, well, humm... I am a Colt man, but BM makes good stuff. Would I say buy a Colt over a Bushmaster.. Yes. Would I say a Colt is that much better than a Bushmaster to not jam under similar situations... No.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 5:16:00 PM EDT
Colt Rules! Don't listen to the bitter owners of less rifles who will say It's just a picture of a horsie!
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 5:21:29 PM EDT
Buy a RRA and don't look back. BM would be my second choice. As AR's and AK's are mechanical devices they are prone to burp now and again. The AK's are held to looser tolerances hence they are less prone to mechanical failures, but are also not as accurate.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 5:24:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2003 5:36:04 PM EDT by DarkStar]
MarkM is right, a Colt is more than just a picture of a horsie... it's an out of spec rifle with a picture of a horsie... Buy a Bushy and don't give this another thought... edited to add: Seriously, you said you were interested in close to the real thing... Colt's PC inspired out of spec fire control components alone are enough to put it out of the running... the Bushmaster is about as close as the average civie can get to a spec rifle...
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 5:27:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2003 5:32:17 PM EDT by model927]
All I can say is a quote form soldier of fortunes premier issue of fighting firearms in 91 the bushmaster featured because they won a military contract to provide a run of M4 carbines"Bushmaster clearly shows colt has no monopoly on quality production of the AR15/M16 series"and besides Bushmaster supports gun rights and has great customer service,Rock River I heard also is a military contractor now and there stuff is also good.Using a RRA lower for my first build..My other 2 are factory Bushmasters.Dont horses get spooked by snakes and lions and panthers..I think panthers arent native to north america anyway..Maybe an eagle arms forged lower next.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 5:37:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By model927: I think panthers arent native to north america anyway.
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Florida Panther [img]http://www.panthersociety.org/pther.jpg[/img] As a colt owner, it's just a picture of a pony, next to a rollmark that declares it an AR-15. Aside from the pretty graphics, I love my bushy, and I'm gonna see how my RRA shoots this weekend.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 6:02:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2003 6:04:03 PM EDT by CJan_NH]
edited to add: Seriously, you said you were interested in close to the real thing... Colt's PC inspired out of spec fire control components alone are enough to put it out of the running... the Bushmaster is about as close as the average civie can get to a spec rifle...
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Out of curiosity, is the 1/9ROT barrel and plastic trigger guard part of the "spec" too? You can keep your small pins, I'd rather have a proper barrel and the lifetime service contract that comes standard with a Colt 6400c. As far as Bushmaster "build quality" vs Colt, read this: [url=http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum56/HTML/000497.html]AR15 deficiencies[/url] Some of you might recognize a few of the names in that thread-Ned Christiansen, Pat Rogers, Tim Lau, Hilton Yam. It should be required reading for anyone comparing different brands of ARs. It should also be required reading for Colt bashers and "pin kommandos". To answer the original posters question directly, my Colts have had far fewer problems than my old XM15. Aside from the overtorqued barrel, canted front sight, random unresolved extraction issues and soft FCG parts my "milspec" Bushmaster was every bit as good as a Colt [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 8:04:58 PM EDT
So I dont know too much about panthers!
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 8:26:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markm: Colt Rules! Don't listen to the bitter owners of less rifles who will say It's just a picture of a horsie!
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What he said.
Link Posted: 11/6/2003 11:47:13 PM EDT
Jam or malfunction? There is a difference, and the answer lies in that.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 12:53:29 AM EDT
Cjan_NH, Thanks for the link, that is some good information. -J
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 12:59:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JTR8541: Cjan_NH, Thanks for the link, that is some good information. -J
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No sweat [:)] Clearly no AR is perfect, but some are simply less consistent than others. That thread was quite an eye opener for me.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 2:01:35 AM EDT
I have owned both a 1/7 twist 14.5" M4 Colt upper and a 1/7 twist 14.5" M4 Bushmaster upper. The difference was not even worth the effort of describing. The Colt upper was almost twice the price of the Bushmaster. The Colt had a couple features that the Bushmaster didnt have and vice versa. I will never own a Colt due to price alone. Its totally not worth it. I sold the Colt M4 upper and kept the milspec Bushmaster upper. People who buy Colts either are insecure with their skills at fixing a problem with a rifle (like replacing worn out small parts) or they buy it just for the name.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 2:38:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2003 3:01:44 AM EDT by CJan_NH]
People who buy Colts either are insecure with their skills at fixing a problem with a rifle (like replacing worn out small parts) or they buy it just for the name.
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Jesus DevL, generalize much? [s]My newest AR was a Colt because frankly I got tired of fighting with second-tier ARs to make them run properly. Between my first two Colts in 1991 and my newest M4 carbine I've had four non Colts. Of the four the only one that ran as advertised was my Rock River. I'm sorry, but a brand new XM15 shouldn't have to go back to Auburn three times to correct issues that should have been addressed during assembly. Colt bashers love to talk about specs, like Bushmaster barrels having the same 4150 steel as Colt barrels for example. They neglect to mention that specs mean fuckall without quality control. Having to replace an extractor spring or other minor part on a brand new rifle is no big deal-shit happens. Being unable to zero the irons without dialing in maximum windage is quite another.[/s] [blue]Screw it, I'd have better luck explaining an amortization schedule to a preschool class.[/blue] Speaking of generalizations, it will be a great day when the Colt bashers learn to move beyond their inferiority complexes and leave the rest of us alone. Your choices aren't our fault...
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 3:30:20 AM EDT
i have 14 Colt AR-15s, 4 are NIB, they all are PRE-BAN...!!! the shooters all function perfectly, i have a Bushmaster upper on one of my Colt lowers & it is the only one that will fail to function, & that is about once in 100 rounds, i also have Eagles & Bushmasters, none have failed regularly, any semi-auto will ocasionally jam......
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 5:42:21 AM EDT
I own both, have used colt's in the real world, and all I can say is they have both run fine, most jams were due to faulty ammo (corrosion, bent, dirt, CHEAP). That being said anything mechanical can and will fail occasionally, most normal folks shoot recreationally, so an occasional hiccup is no problem...my beef with the Bushy ? plastic trigger guard..
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 10:22:21 AM EDT
Im not a Colt basher as I have owned both. Both had the same fit and function and qulaity control and what not. I would buy all Colts if I could if they were on an equal price level as Bushmaster and had milspec parts just for the name. I have had 2 Bushmasters and 1 Colt and and never had any malfuction problems that were not directly related to the Bushmaster Franken mag I had that jammed every 3 rounds. With USGIs I see no difference. The DoD and DOE buy Bushmaster and have no quality issues. I would venture to say the quality control at Bushmaster is no worse than Colts. I have seen plenty of shoddy Bushmasters and I have seen plenty of shoddy Colts. I had no windage issues on any of my rifles. If 5 times as many people complain about quality issues as Colt its because there are that many more Bushmasters out there in peoples hands. In my experience Bushmaster is NOT inferior in quality to a Colt.... but thats just my experience. If you have owned both, give us the specific problems you have had. If you have to dial in maximum windage or have another MAJOR problem just send in the rifle to Bushmaster and they will make it right. Lifetime warranties are over rated IMHO. If it is a major problem you will see it in the first year, if not you can fix it yourself. Hell I prefer to build my own with no warranty.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 10:27:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hakka: I own both, have used colt's in the real world, and all I can say is they have both run fine, most jams were due to faulty ammo (corrosion, bent, dirt, CHEAP). That being said anything mechanical can and will fail occasionally, most normal folks shoot recreationally, so an occasional hiccup is no problem...my beef with the Bushy ? plastic trigger guard..
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I prefer the plastic trigger guard so it cant bend and immobilise the trigger if the rifle takes a spill. Its a cheap swap though and I would not hesitate to put in an aluminum trigger guard if its a issue for you.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 10:34:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2003 10:37:50 AM EDT by Ellery_Holt]
Originally Posted By DevL: Hell I prefer to build my own with no warranty.
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THAT is my answer, and the answer for many of us. [i]My[/i] quality control is exacting and unforgiving. My perfectionist traits and the fact that I am building [i]my own[/i] rifles are motivators beyond that of any manufacturer's [i]employee[/i].
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 1:08:56 PM EDT
just because your's jam does not mean mine does I own a "gulp" Bushmaster and mine does not jam.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 1:56:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2003 2:01:44 PM EDT by CJan_NH]
If you have owned both, give us the specific problems you have had. If you have to dial in maximum windage or have another MAJOR problem just send in the rifle to Bushmaster and they will make it right. Lifetime warranties are over rated IMHO. If it is a major problem you will see it in the first year, if not you can fix it yourself. Hell I prefer to build my own with no warranty.
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Certainly: The first time my 20" XM15 went back to Bushmaster was to repair a cockeyed barrel and random FTE issues. It came back with a new upper, but the random ejection problems were unresolved. Changing extractors and springs didn't help. The second time my 20" XM15 went back to Bushmaster was because it started doubling. It came back with a new disco and FCG parts. The third time my 20" XM15 went back to Bushmaster for the same unresolved FTE issue, it started doubling [b]AGAIN[/b], and the barrel nut wouldn't stay tight. I could actually move the FSB back and forth within the limits of the gas tube keyway. My local smith tightened it to spec and applied threadlocker but no matter what it wouldn't stay tight for more than a couple hundred rounds. After it came back a third time all was well for a few cases of ammo, then it started doubling for a third time. By this time I was fed up and sold it to one of troops at my father's PD. He enjoys tweaking so this rifle was an ideal "project" gun for him. Since I live so close to Auburn ME I would LOVE to have another Bushmaster, but only if I can get one that runs as advertised. I don't want to hear that detent pin impacts on the buffer are "normal wear", nor do I want to hear that 38 clicks of windage is "within spec". 38 clicks of windage brings the rear sight almost all the way over-and that's piss-poor QC. EDIT: They might have installed the new upper after the second trip to Auburn for warranty repair rather than the first trip-I can't remember for sure.
Link Posted: 11/7/2003 7:11:16 PM EDT
I've only fired Colts and they all worked flawlessly except for the crappy .22's they had at Lackland AFB. I have a pre-ban Colt (yet to take it to a range). The way I see it Colt is the ticket for pre-ban simply because of the "prancy pony brand name AR-15 roll mark factor" but as far as post-ban I think I would probably go with Bushmaster. I need to actually shoot a Bushmaster one of these days. Everytime I visit the local gun dealer those Bushies keep calling to me. Maybe I'll buy one tommorrow. Perhaps a 2nd Black Rifle would get my lazy butt in gear and make that drive to a range.
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 1:01:37 AM EDT
I have a few of each Colt and Bushmaster and all my rifles run great. A couple of them have ad to be [I]coaxed[/I] in the first few hundred rounds when they were new, but everybody is happy now. The Colt fire control pins don’t bother me a bit, don’t know why they would bother others either. I don’t particularly care for the fact that some Colt rifles come with the plastic buffer; maybe it’s just me, but I like to replace those with the real deal. I think people throw around the term [b]mil-spec[/b] way too much. The only way your going to get a current mil-spec weapon is if you have an SOT and a demo letter. Best regards, J
Link Posted: 11/8/2003 4:08:24 AM EDT
DAMN.............!!!!!!!!! just when i was bragging about my Bushy upper on a pre-ban Colt lower, only having one jam in 100 rnds..., well, yetdy/. the darn thing jammed 3 times with a 30 rnd. mag. !!!!! need to smooth out the feed ramps a bit.
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