Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 10/18/2003 6:22:12 PM EDT
First off, thanks for looking as always

My father is the chief of a small rural PD here in NH, and like most small agencies his is underfunded. Over the years I have donated a Benelli shotgun and frequently loan my ARs to his troops to use as patrol rifles.

After reading the do-it-yourself forum here I realized that I could build an AR and save myself quite a bit of money. I'm kicking around the idea of building four basic Rock River Arms 16" A2 carbines and donating them to my father's PD. Before I begin I have a few questions:

-Can I put six-position collapsibles on postban receivers if I intend to immediately donate the finished weapons to a LE agency?

-What about preban uppers?

It looks like I can build a complete 16" A2 carbine for around $625 with a six position collapsible using RRA parts. This is quite a bit cheaper than a complete Colt or RRA LE carbine.

Once I get that all figured out I'd like to aquire a few stripped lowers and parts kits for my own personal use. Ideally I'd like to have a few completed lowers waiting for the AWB to sunset, and then I'll install collapsible stocks and preban uppers on those too.

Is it legal for me to have preban stocks and uppers on hand for my own personal use as long as I don't install them on the postban receivers until after the ban sunsets?

If it makes a difference I do have two preban Colts in my collection. I thought I remembered reading somewhere once that having the parts is considered intent to build by the ATFE-is this true?

Whatever I end up doing I want to make sure I'm not breaking the law. That's the last thing I need.

Thanks in advance for your help, and sorry for the long winded post.

Link Posted: 10/18/2003 9:21:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2003 10:05:03 PM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By CJan_NH: First off, thanks for looking as always [:)] My father is the chief of a small rural PD here in NH, and like most small agencies his is underfunded. Over the years I have donated a Benelli shotgun and frequently loan my ARs to his troops to use as patrol rifles. After reading the do-it-yourself forum here I realized that I could build an AR and save myself quite a bit of money. I'm kicking around the idea of building four basic Rock River Arms 16" A2 carbines and donating them to my father's PD. Before I begin I have a few questions: -Can I put six-position collapsibles on postban receivers if I intend to immediately donate the finished weapons to a LE agency? ***(NO. You cannot be in possesion of an illegally configured weapon at any time. LE personnel must present a letter from their agency to purchase a new [post AWB] rifle with banned features)*** -What about preban uppers?***(NO, not on a post ban with a pistol grip, if the preban upper has a flash hider or bayonet lug. you may not have more than one banned feature on a post ban rifle)*** It looks like I can build a complete 16" A2 carbine for around $625 with a six position collapsible using RRA parts. This is quite a bit cheaper than a complete Colt or RRA LE carbine.(***No collapsible stock on a postban with a pistol grip. that is a felony offense)*** Once I get [b]that[/b] all figured out I'd like to aquire a few stripped lowers and parts kits for my own personal use. Ideally I'd like to have a few completed lowers waiting for the AWB to sunset, and then I'll install collapsible stocks and preban uppers on those too. ***(up to you, but having preban parts with postban ARs ONLY on the same premises could be interpreted by BATF as having an illegal rifle in knockdown condtition-still illegal if you are caught)*** Is it legal for me to have preban stocks and uppers on hand for my own personal use as long as I [b]don't[/b] install them on the postban receivers until after the ban sunsets?***(see above)*** If it makes a difference I do have two preban Colts in my collection. I thought I remembered reading somewhere once that having the parts is considered intent to build by the ATFE-is this true?***(If you have preban AR15s you can keep spare parts for these as long as they are not installed on a postban)*** Whatever I end up doing I want to make sure I'm not breaking the law. That's the last thing I need. Thanks in advance for your help, and sorry for the long winded post.
View Quote
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 9:45:37 PM EDT
Was it something I said? [:D]
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 9:50:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2003 9:50:31 PM EDT by _DR]
I answered your questions in the previous post, I just inserted them in the text. (just being lazy)
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 9:56:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR: I answered your questions in the previous post, I just inserted them in the text. (just being lazy)
View Quote
Oops! [:D] Thanks for your info.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 10:02:18 PM EDT
no problem. I based those answers on FAQs and documents gleaned from the BATFs website: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ It's tedious getting what you need from their site, but at least it's not second hand information. I would suggest you check out their site, as well as the legal area of this board. Some areas are gray and subject to interpretation, others are not. Good luck with your project.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 10:20:38 PM EDT
It may be possible for your father to order the LEO stripped lower receivers and you could build them from there.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 5:18:59 AM EDT
AWB features aside, the other problem could be that you are buying the rifles knowing that you don't intend to keep them. Granted you will be donating them to a police department but it may be a gray area. Another option would be for you to donate the money to the department and have them buy complete rifles. The department should be able to get a better deal on the rifle which should put it closer to the cost of building it yourself. They could also buy all the parts and you just build them at the police department.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 7:38:31 AM EDT
The angle *I* would be concerned about here would be liability. Suppose one of your dad's officers ends up slain because the homebuilt rifle he was carrying on patrol didn't work when he needed it?
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:24:12 AM EDT
To Begin I am not an expert on laws here. However, I think when DR says possesion of preban parts could be interpreted as bad, etc. is quite unrealistic. The ATF is talking about a a post ban in a guncase with preban parts also in the case. Im fairly sure that you have a right to buy whatever you want for "collection" purposes. I can't believe that there would be a law saying that you have to have a preban gun for every preban part. If all your gonna do is put preban stocks on the guns, just do at the police station after you give them the guns. Or, just have your dad send in a letter of intent to Rock River and have the parts sent to the police station and put them together there. I mean the above comments are going by ATF guidelines; Come on people his father is the damn police chief, you think he's gonna get busted on the way to the station with the guns. haha
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:28:17 AM EDT
Thanks for the additional info guys. I wasn't aware that even a PD needs a department letter when they want "evil" features on a postban rifle. In light of this info the easiest way to do this might be to simply have the old man order the parts on company letterhead, then I'll send a certified check for payment. Unfortunately I can't just make a cash "donation" to the PD because the town selectmen would then become involved, and they would most likely allocate the funds for something else.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:46:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 10:50:49 AM EDT by XM777]
Originally Posted By CJan_NH: In light of this info the easiest way to do this might be to simply have the old man order the parts on company letterhead, then I'll send a certified check for payment.
View Quote
Unfortunately that isn't go to fly either. An individual or a PD cannot just "manufacture" a LEO AW. You would have to hold an ATF type 07 manufacturer's license to legally do so. The only option other than purchasing a complete LEO AW, is to start with a lower that is already stamped "Restricted LEO/Govt Use only".
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 11:15:35 AM EDT
Yes I was curious about the LE lower also, that makes sense; so that means that not even police can modify a postban rifle, right?. Iv'e asked a Wilson combat about this a while back and they said all you need is a letter signed by your superior. If you go the LE Lower route maybee they'll give you a discount since its for police. The easiest option would be to just order up four brand new rock river post ban M4's, you would'nt have a collapsible stock, but thats only truly necesary for swat teams with lots of gear, if its just regular patrolmen it would work. Though it would also be nice to order up four brand new LE M4's from rock river!
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 11:27:10 AM EDT
There is a person who is a member on the www.frugalsquirrels.com web site that is a chief leo. He goes by Seventh Fleet. He moderates the survival weapons forum. He posted not long ago about purchasing surplus M16A1 rifles for his department from the military for real good prices. Contact him and he could tell your dad how to purchase the rifles.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 11:46:52 AM EDT
[b]God dammit![/b] [:(!] Oh well, thanks for setting me straight guys. It's better to know this now than start something that will put me on the wrong side of the law. Postban non-collapsible stocks won't work. There are a few smaller officers and the LOP of a full stock is too long. Conversely, a shorter entry type stock like the one I have on my Colt M4 is too short for bigger guys like my father. The whole idea of bulding them myself was to save money. I can assemble and field four complete 16" carbines for $2500. Even at wholesale prices I can't buy four LE carbines for much less than $3200. I'll contact Seventh Fleet and see about M16A1s. Thanks again for the info. October 2004 cannot come soon enough-I'm tired of this preban/postban bullshit.
Top Top