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Posted: 10/5/2003 8:56:20 PM EDT
I've finally put enough rounds through my new Colt 6400C M4 Carbine to be confident with it's reliability. It is going to tasked as a SHTF gun for Mrs CJan, but I have to accessorize it in stages due to other financial obligations.

If you were me would you put the Surefire on it first, or the Aimpoint? I'm thinking Surefire because even with stock irons it can still be used 24/7, but without a light it can't be used in the dark.

Am I making sense or is this crazy talk?

Thanks in advance

PS-Mrs CJan can use the irons just fine if that makes a difference.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 8:59:48 PM EDT
Aimpoint! Aimpoint pwns joo! [:D] In all reality - Aimpoints are just cooler. Surefire isn't as much fun, although it may greatly increase function. Keep in mind you probably won't be able to see your irons at night, though.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 9:14:27 PM EDT
I would buy the Aimpoint. But, I can see your point if it is to be used strictly for home defense.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 9:21:59 PM EDT
Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 9:32:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 11:00:33 PM EDT
This is probably the first time I can remember not agreeing with Troy. But, in my opinion, if you can't see what your shooting at, the Aimpoint will not do you much good. Albeit, I am biased because I work nights. I was in a similar delima as you are. I opted for the M500 and a set of Trijicons first. I then saved my money and later upgraded to an Eotech. Having said that, the M500 would not be your only option as Troy stated. You could go with a RAS configuration, and later upgrade with some optics and have more mounting options. Remember, light is your friend when used properly.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 11:04:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2003 11:07:24 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Id skip the Surefire M500 if thats what you're thinking. Not just piss-poor ventilation - NO ventilation. You're better off with one of the Classic series lights. Cheaper too. Id go with the light 1st too. You have a MUCH higher chance of needing your gun at night, and your irons will work with a light.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 11:14:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2003 4:13:17 AM EDT by CJan_NH]
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Id skip the Surefire M500 if thats what you're thinking. Not just piss-poor ventilation - NO ventilation. You're better off with one of the Classic series lights. Cheaper too.
View Quote
No ventilation? I'm not sure what do you mean Lumpy. Aside from the length is it different than my other Surefire forend? Do they not have enough air holes or am I thinking of the wrong thing entirely? [img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/scope2.jpg[/img] Thanks for the help so far guys. If I don't want a vertical foregrip am I still better of with a railed forend? Based on the near-unanimous chorus here to get the optic first I think my line of reasoning may be faulty. I was thinking that the Aimpoint would be of little use in low-light conditions without the flashlight. Is it that the Aimpoint can still be used even in near darkness? I realize that the CompM2 I've been looking at has no magnification, but does it transmit all ambient light without any loss? My only point of reference in optics is the Leupold on my scoped Colt HBAR so it's probably an apples to oranges comparison. I know that in darkness my Leupold is useless without a light, but then again my scoped HBAR isn't tasked as a CQB weapon. Is it that you guys are figuring on ambient light from household lamps? Please understand that I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to figure out your reasoning so I can correct my own faulty thinking [:)]
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 11:50:16 PM EDT
The carbine model is different
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 11:52:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: The carbine model is different
View Quote
Oh. Well that explains it then [:)]
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 1:37:52 AM EDT
They NEED to add some ventilation to carbine model. Its sucks big time on a full auto carbine.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 4:09:22 AM EDT
I think you should skip the Aimpoint for now. I am going to guess that your wife still is learning this rifle system? She(Anyone) should learn to become skilled with the iron sights before going with optics. I can't tell you the number of people I have seen buy an Aimpoint or EOtech for their first AR and have no clue how to shoot the rifle with open sights. If this is truly a SHTF rifle, then you have to keep in mind that the optics could fail for one reason or another during that time. As far as light systems go, that is going to be up to you. I myself went with the M500 after using the M961 on an Olympic FIRSH. I found that the M500 made for a more compact system and had more options for me. Another thing to consider about adding all kinds of gadgets to your wifes rifle. Do you have kids? In a true SHTF scenario you would keep your rifle close at all times. I can tell you from experience, handling a rifle with all those accessories and trying to handle a small child is no easy task. The more shit to get in the way, or bang into the kids when they are close.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 7:14:36 PM EDT
Aimpoint
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 8:21:51 PM EDT
Aimpoint hands down.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 8:22:07 PM EDT
Aimpoint
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 9:21:43 PM EDT
Aimpoint
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:22:31 AM EDT
Aimpoint
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:34:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 6:38:48 AM EDT by IronBalaclava]
Go with the Surefire, but Forget the 500. Get a Surefire Classic Weapons light. It's more important to be able to SEE what lurks in the darkness. Also the longer you use irons, the better off you'll be. Now the combo of a Surefire Aimpoint and ARMS #40 BUIS in darkness if a HEAVEN SENT! Edited to add: With a Surefire alone, in the darkness you'll see what's in front of you AND your irons. With a Aimpoint alone, in the darkness you'll see....well not much of anything-just a Red dot. However, with both(The best combo) you'll see what's in front of you, the reddot, and your front sight post with the dot hovering just above it![:D]
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 7:21:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 7:23:48 AM EDT by Forest]
Before I had 'tactical' rifle training I would have said the Aimpoint. However after going through a night/low level shooting course I'd say get the light first. Aimpoints are great and they do help at night - but they are only marginally better than irons when you can't see the target. Lights on the other hand give a tremendous advantage at night when used properly (in other words GO GET TRAINED). You can greatly extend your range, you gain the ability to ID the target (are you aiming at a friendly or hostile?), and you can blind the target (which can be useful). Lights can be used with any targeting system irons, red-dots, and scopes. Personally I dont care for the Surefire forend. If you're going to spend that kind of $$ might as well get their forward grip with the built in light instead. I prefer their lights that use M1913 rails for mounting as I can switch them easily to any of my other firearms. [i]Edited to add:[/i] FYI you do realize you are more likely to engage a threat at night or in low light? Because of this the light is a more important option for a rifle that is going to be used for protection.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 7:40:22 AM EDT
Get a light. [:)] I would stay away from the M500, I think it is a useless piece for what they charge. This is a very limiting unit as far as what you can mount on your forend. I would definitely look into the classic series or even the M950x or M960x system and get a bolt on rail for your forend until you can go with a true rail handguard. Aimpoint is nice but with a light you can ID your target and make hits where it counts.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 7:56:57 AM EDT
Get the light.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 8:38:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 8:40:06 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]
If you intend to use this rifle for possible home defense, then you need the surefire. You can't shoot at what you can't see, at least not unless you are in the military. (And you can't often do it then either) The surefire will give you enough light to see your sights and your target at least out to 50 yards. (We did night shoots, so trust me on this one) When your target is lit up like a christmas tree, you get a reall pretty sight picture even when it is dark out. The Aimpoint is nice, but not necessary to use the weapon effectively. The light, however, IS necessary if you plan on using the weapon in a self defense/home defense roll. I would also encourage the purchase of a light that doesn't replace your entire forend. A rail adaptable light is much more versatile in mounting options. I prefer my light to be mounted underneath the barrel instead of beside it.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 9:09:01 AM EDT
Take it from me there chief, if you could only have one extra thing on your defensive firearm, it should be a tactical light. Building interiors and spaces are dark all the time so any optic is negated (unless of course you have night vision). I brought my surefire classic series with me to Iraq and it proved to be the most valuable firearm addition there was, even more so than my Trijicon ACOG. If that isn't a testimony I don't know what is.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 11:33:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 11:34:11 AM EDT by DevL]
I say get a FF railed forearm instead of either. It will keep your options open in the future. Its more comfortable than factory grip even without a vertical fore grip (KAC forearms ONLY). It allows you to add and remove items without changing POI and it will allow WAY more ventilation resulting in a cooler running rifle. Then get a light. Then get an Aimpoint. But thats just one idea, do what feels right to you.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 12:12:42 PM EDT
Another vote for light Get some kind of quality light first. As said before, it will give you the biggest low/no light advantage over other equipment.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 12:21:40 PM EDT
Get a light. For all the above reasons. If you end up interested in a Classic Surefire I recommend the 659. Here is a pic of it on my light weight Carbine. With the addition of the Z36 side sling adapter you get a light, mount and side sling swivel all in one. [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/063183.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 2:21:03 PM EDT
Definitely get the light.An Aimpoint is useless if you can't see your target.I have an M500 on my carbine and haven't experienced it being too hot but then again mine isn't auto.I think you'll be more than fine with it for home defense.If not, Surefire has lots of other options.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 4:11:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 4:27:16 PM EDT by AKM]
Does your wife attend night shoots? If so, the Light will indeed be helpfull. If most of her shooting is done during the daytime then buy the Aimpoint. Buying accessories based on usefullness is one thing but buying them based on possible SHTF or TEOTWAWKI scenarios is another (sounds like your on a budget). As we all know, Rifles are not the best when it comes to home defense weapons. A good quality handgun equiped with that tactical Light is a wiser choice (and safer for those who may be in another rooms of your home, or your neighbors next door). I see far too much advise on this site geared toward SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, CQB and little toward recreational and practical shooting.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 5:21:23 PM EDT
Get the aim point youll need something to be able to shoot quick and at night. tactical light use depend on suroundings and light available because in total darkness using a light will give you away so if there is contact made it will be close so you will be able to see the enemy and he you.At this point its who gets off the quickest accurate shot first,The aimpoint will help you do that.There was an action in vietnam where a Col Bull Simmons led a special forces team,actualy 3 teams of soldiers some armed with Xm177s and a red dot sight wich brought up their night time hit percentage when used and set before the raid from 30% to a whopping 75% I dont know the name of the optic but theres a picture of his team in an aircraft of some kind and you can see all their weapons.It was the Son Tay raid to rescue POWs.Now if you live in a city the light would probably be the most useful first.Any place else Aim Point and Night Vision couldnt hurt either,I keep seeing $200 russian monocular with an IR illuminator,now thats cheap.Wonder if I could adapt it to fit my aimpoint. I have the model with the night vision seetings.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:12:18 PM EDT
The sight used by the Son Tay Raiders was the Singlepoint, a British forerunner to the Armson OEG.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:32:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 6:35:30 PM EDT by CJan_NH]
Originally Posted By AKM: Does your wife attend night shoots? If so, the Light will indeed be helpfull. If most of her shooting is done during the daytime then buy the Aimpoint. Buying accessories based on usefullness is one thing but buying them based on possible SHTF or TEOTWAWKI scenarios is another (sounds like your on a budget). As we all know, Rifles are not the best when it comes to home defense weapons. A good quality handgun equiped with that tactical Light is a wiser choice (and safer for those who may be in another rooms of your home, or your neighbors next door). I see far too much advise on this site geared toward SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, CQB and little toward recreational and practical shooting.
View Quote
My wife has shot at night but it's a pretty rare occurance. I'm a firm believer in taclights and have them on most of my weapons: [img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/blo.jpg[/img] Benelli M3 Super 90 with taclight and ALS pulsebeam laser aimer Colt HBAR with Leupold scope and taclight HK USP40 with trijicons and taclight [img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/usp_barsto1_copy.jpg[/img] HK USP45f with Bar-Sto extended barrel, trijicons, UTL, and Hogue Handall. The USP40f is the "things that go bump in the night" gun for my wife. That being said according to ballisticians like Doctor Gary Roberts a heavy 223 OTM bullet has less over penetration potential than a 9mm, 40s&w, or 45acp handgun bullet. It is for that reason that I'm configuring this Colt for her use. Plus she prefers practicing with rifles over handguns so her proficiency level will become higher with the rifle very quickly.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 7:02:57 PM EDT
Light first!
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 7:26:10 PM EDT
Neither, get an EoTech, they rock!
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 7:53:17 AM EDT
Here's a vote for a light first. If you get an aimpoint then you still have to ID the target before you shoot it. If you illuminate the possible target with the proper light you'll not only be able to see the BG but the BGs buddy off to the side and shoot with your irons. Another way to think of it is do you want your wife to place a perfect hammer right into YOUR com because she couldn't ID you but could sure place that dot over the COM of the object coming toward her?
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 11:05:57 AM EDT
i got a traditional surefire first for my RRA mid-length. for one, aimpoints are expensive. and another reason is i need time to become proficient w/ my irons. if i got the aimpoint right off the bat its true that i would suck at open sights shooting, which i think is ESSENTIAL. technology fails, even the best technology, and you'd better be able to get by w/o it. so im not stressed about getting the ml2 on there right away cause every time i take it out i get a little better. i WILL get one fairly soon, if i dont keep buying other shit instead. (FAL kit, new gun safe, another lower, cases of ammo...the wife is getting restless) [url]http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/detailfs?userid={2394B0ED-2626-4BC0-AD60-2C3B6046F572}&ndx=0&slideshow=0&AlbumId={DF6E5BF1-F46D-4956-BCF3-A68F139B6E4F}&GroupId=&screenheight=864[/url]
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 11:16:05 AM EDT
Go with a light, then get the Aimpoint. Or EoTech![peep]
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