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Posted: 9/26/2003 2:03:51 AM EDT
I just sold an old Oly pre-ban shorty my friend couldn't live without. I've been out of the loop for a while and need to catch up. I'm thinking about buying a heavy barrel 16" A2 stocked carbine. I've heard good things about RRA, Bushmaster, DPMS, and Olympic (about in that order) What do you experts think? What should I expect to spend? Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 2:12:40 AM EDT
Bushmaster, second to none! You'll spend between $600-$1000 depending on what you get. Which leads me to the question: What are you looking to do with it? General plinking? Or serious work/home defense? Would you like to be able to reach out and touch someone, or would you prefer a lighter carbine? Give us some details on what you're looking to get out of it and we'll be able to help you better. By the way: Welcome [newbie]
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 3:17:32 AM EDT
I've got a Bushmaster 16" A2 Carbine w/ HBAR, which is what you said youre looking for and it is really, really nice. model is XM15-E2S, def. worth checking out. after taxes and all i paid a little over 800. Dagger.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 3:42:39 AM EDT
Indeed, welcome. (That means you too, Dagger. [:)]) Lockedon asked the right question. What do you want this rifle to do for you? I think a 16" A3 (flattop) AR is just about the perfect choice for most applications. The A3 upper is most versatile. You aren't limited in your optics choices. One other thing. A lot of the 16" guns come with a muzzle brake, of which I'm not very fond. Just my opinion, but I think they add way too much noise and aren't necessary to control the recoil of a 5.56 caliber rifle. You can easily learn to control recoil without one. I'd suggest trying to shoot a few different rifles in different configurations to see what works best for you. Heck, you might end up wanting a 20" A2. What works for one person might not for another. You won't go wrong with a Bushmaster or RRA. These are my two favorites. You may even want to look into building a lower and buy a complete upper for it. Eagle Arms and RRA stripped lowers can be had for UNDER $100. You could actually save a little money this way and have fun doing it. (Believe me, it is NOT difficult to build a lower. Now an upper is a little more challenging.) Again, welcome.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 4:06:02 AM EDT
I plan to use the rifle for general plinking and 3 gun competition. It seems the concensus is RRA or Bushmaster. What's the difference in price between the A2 and A3? As I said, I've been shooting pistols mostly the last couple years and haven't paid much attention to the AR scene. Thanks
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 4:44:33 AM EDT
For your intended purpose, I'd say definitely 16" A3. The A3 without a detachable carry handle should cost the same as an A2. So, the added expense is in getting some type of rear sight. Personally, I'd get the A3 and some type of BUIS (Back Up Iron Sight). A lot of people buy a detachable carry handle, only to sell it (or cut it into a BUIS) later. I have both the ARMS 40 and Bushmaster BMAS flip-up BUIS. The Bushy sight is a little cheaper. It locks into place in the up position. The ARMS does NOT lock. Some people like this better because if the sight snags on something, chances are the ARMS will just spring back up. I think I actually like the Bushy sight better. Some people find they have to replace the front sight pin with a slightly taller one when using an ARMS 40. If you where here in GA, I'd be more than happy to let you try my rifles. You might want to go to the Hometown forums (see the Hometown link in the upper right hand corner?) and introduce yourself to your fellow Illinois members. There are some great guys on this site from Illinois. I'm sure they'd be happy to help you out.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 4:49:54 AM EDT
If I was to buy an A3 and scope it, is the front sight post going to block the field of view? Or would I have to use tall rings and get above the sight post? I don't understand how that works. I'll check with some other Illinois shooters as you suggested. I built the Oly pre-ban I just sold, but it looks like the savings is minimal now. I kinda like the idea of just buying a factory rifle and getting a warranty.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 5:27:50 AM EDT
I have a Leupold Vari-X II 3-9x40 on a 20" A3 upper. I mounted it with an ARMS rail and ARMS #22L (low) rings. The scope is basically on the same sight plane as irons. I can NOT see the front sight tower at all, even on the lowest (3x) setting. Some people say on 3x in certain conditions (like real sunny) they MAY see a slight ghost of the tower. But it shouldn't be bad enough to be annoying. You won't see the sight tower ever on higher settings. Like I said, I don't see mine even on 3x. The scope kind of looks through the sight tower. The optics are focused at a point further than the sight tower. I'm sure someone here can explain in more scientific terms how it really works. Suffice to say, it is NOT an issue.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 5:38:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2003 5:40:10 AM EDT by Lockedon]
Originally Posted By sleepercaprice1: If I was to buy an A3 and scope it, is the front sight post going to block the field of view? Or would I have to use tall rings and get above the sight post? I don't understand how that works. I'll check with some other Illinois shooters as you suggested. I built the Oly pre-ban I just sold, but it looks like the savings is minimal now. I kinda like the idea of just buying a factory rifle and getting a warranty.
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If you mount anything on your flat-top, that has magnification, the front sight will NOT be visible...I think the most you'll ever see with it is a VERY VERY faint blurry line, if you have a scope with only 3x. Definately go with the A3. My first AR (bushmaster) was A2 and my others are A3s. I still wish I had gotten the A3 to begin with...They are MUCH more expanable. Mounting scopes on carry handles sucks in my opinion. BookHound is right to caution you. Muzzle breaks suck MUCHO GRANDE! The recoil of a semi-automatic .223 is not sufficient to justify the added inconvinences (and dangers) of a muzzle break! You'll hate it, trust me. BookHound is right on the money about everything else he covered. Seriously though, Bushmaster is the best brand out there. And their customer service KICKS ASS! Good luck though and welcome
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 6:22:21 AM EDT
So, Bushmaster is the one? I like the sound of the RRA 2 stage trigger and the 1 MOA guarantee, but I have to take the word of you guys, you definitely know more about this than I do. I guess I'll start looking at Bushmasters. What kind of accuracy can I expect from a 16" Bushmaster? Is 1 MOA a reasonable expectation? The flash hider/ bayo lug issue is the reason I sold my pre-ban Oly. I'm not concerned about either one. I've also read that accuracy is typically better without muzzle attachments. I hope to be able to buy a new post-ban and have some money left over from the sale of my pre-ban.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 6:43:26 AM EDT
Sounds like Lockedon and I agree on everything so far. [:D] I second the Bushmaster suggestion. Having said that, I have the following: Busmaster A3 16" carbine Eagle Arms lower/Bushmaster 20" A2 Upper RRA lower/RRA upper with a Bushmaster 20" government profile barrel See any pattern? I'm a HUGE fan of Bushmaster, but have started building my own lowers (using RRA lower parts kits). The only reason I bought the RRA upper was because a friend was selling it and it had a Bushy barrel. I would have much rather had a Bushy upper receiver on that one, but it's been okay. Since you want a complete rifle, I'd stick with Bushy. The RRA are okay though. If you do get a RRA, make sure you get a chrome lined barrel. You can get ~1-moa accuracy with a 16" using good ammo. However, the sight radius is shorter on a 16" gun. Thus, a 16" rifle is at somewhat of a disadvantage from a 20" sight radius. However, some guys claim a 16" barrel is more accurate due to the harmonics being better than the 20" barrels. Make sense? If so, explain it all to me. [:D] To really get closer to that 1-moa, you'll want to free-float the barrel. BTW, the RRA trigger can be easily installed in any lower (well, except Colt lowers with large pin holes). I think very highly of that trigger.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:03:11 AM EDT
Out of those choices I would prefer the Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:17:20 AM EDT
I have a bushmaster also and love it. plus there service dept. is second to none.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:22:32 AM EDT
If you want to get a good idea about the pros and cons and quirks of each particular brand of AR this thread is required reading: [url=http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum56/HTML/000497.html]AR15 deficiencies[/url] The thread is long-it will take you about 40 minutes to get through all of it. In the end you will have a better idea of what works and what doesn't. There are many names there that you might recognize like Ned Christiansen, Pat Rogers, Hilton Yam, Doctor Gary Roberts, and ARFs very own Tweak. It doesn't get much better than that [:)]
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:28:17 AM EDT
so what he is saying they all are not worth a shit.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:38:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kekozski: so what he is saying they all are not worth a shit.
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Not at all. No rifle is perfect, but some are more prone to problems than others. Read the thread and see for yourself. There is a lot of valuable information to be had.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 9:21:32 AM EDT
I guess you are right there not all perfect. I guess I just been lucky with my bushmasters.but I do know ther service dept. is great.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 10:52:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
Originally Posted By kekozski: so what he is saying they all are not worth a shit.
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Not at all. No rifle is perfect, but some are more prone to problems than others. Read the thread and see for yourself. There is a lot of valuable information to be had.
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It's generally the operator not the rifle. I have had all mentioned brands. Bushmaster hands down.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 11:03:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By patriot73:
Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
Originally Posted By kekozski: so what he is saying they all are not worth a shit.
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Not at all. No rifle is perfect, but some are more prone to problems than others. Read the thread and see for yourself. There is a lot of valuable information to be had.
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It's generally the operator not the rifle. I have had all mentioned brands. Bushmaster hands down.
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Read the thread I posted-it's far more than just the operator. All manufacturers have had quality control issues, but some far more than others. Like you I have owned several brands: Colts, a Bushy, an DPMS, an Oly, and an RRA-all with varied levels of successes and failures.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 11:11:17 AM EDT
I can only speak from my experiences and I might be biased but RRA was my choice for these reasons, 1. Cheaper 2. Just as good as any other AR out there 3. Very tight between the upper and the lower 4. Cheaper 5. The place I got it specializes in RRA 6. Stock NM trigger 7. Matte finish, non-shiny! the bushys are shiny which probably makes them easier to clean but I am not into shiny for an AR. 8. Cheaper, mine was right at 700 total. Why pay an extra 300 bucks +/- for an animal on the side? Just kidding guys, no flame needed. I recently had a problem with my NM trigger, it seemed to have lost the second stage. I sent it to RRA to have them fix it. They called and told me that there was a pile of powder under the trigger assembly that I couldnt see that was keeping it from engaging the 2 stage. They fine tuned that sucker to 3# and .75# for each respective stage and I like it much better now! I know that isn't 'legal' for competition but I aint competing. You will love that trigger, smooth as a silk. The best part of all was it was free to fix and it only had me without my precious for 10 days, I shipped it out on a Friday and got it the following Monday. ymmv but that's my story and I'm sticking to it
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 1:20:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2003 1:21:27 PM EDT by Lockedon]
Originally Posted By BookHound: ...You can get ~1-moa accuracy with a 16" using good ammo. However, the sight radius is shorter on a 16" gun. Thus, a 16" rifle is at somewhat of a disadvantage from a 20" sight radius. However, some guys claim a 16" barrel is more accurate due to the harmonics being better than the 20" barrels...
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Bushmaster developed the Dissapator Model to eliminate the sight radius issue with carbines. Add an A.R.M.S. S.I.R. #59 to that model, and you got yourself a KICK ASS looking and performing gun! [img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa3s16d.jpg[/img] [url]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa3s16d.asp[/url]
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 1:39:16 PM EDT
if ya can wait one month come to buffalo firirng range btween utica $ottawa oct26 . try them all out. pick then . friendly monster pit . shoot what ever ya want . go to il hometown. marksman has a cute girlfriend.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 1:46:38 PM EDT
marksman wants to bring a friends car to shoot. how cool is that?only in LaSalle county a bar at every corner.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 2:28:17 PM EDT
Buffalo Range? October 26? I'm in! Since I sold my Oly, all I have left is my 1971 Colt SP1 20". I'd really like to meet some local guys who are into AR's. Maybe I'll bring my M1A. The only question is if I can wait a month. The Dissipator is another good idea. I have to do some thinking before I decide.
Link Posted: 9/26/2003 8:30:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sleepercaprice1: I just sold an old Oly pre-ban shorty my friend couldn't live without. I've been out of the loop for a while and need to catch up. I'm thinking about buying a heavy barrel 16" A2 stocked carbine. I've heard good things about RRA, Bushmaster, DPMS, and Olympic (about in that order) What do you experts think? What should I expect to spend? Thanks.
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All the answers you will get on this forum will point you to Bushmaster. This is because most of the forum members have been abducted by aliens from the planet Bushmaster and surgically altered so that it is the only brand of AR they can recommend. Any of the brands you mentioned (not REALLY sure about Olympic) would work great.
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 11:23:00 AM EDT
Let me vouch for Olympic. I have a PCR-5 and love it!! Beautiful finish, extremely tight, hairline fit between upper & Lower, and ACCURATE. I bought this year and have about 1000 rounds thru it (either LC or IMI). Not a single malfunction. Most of my shooting is now at the 200 yd. line at the range. Reciently installed the FIRST Samco M44S grips to mount optics. I love this rifle.
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 11:42:02 AM EDT
my first choice would be Bushmaster, 2nd would prob. be RRA
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 1:05:26 PM EDT
I'm not sure, guys. I just got home from an IDPA pistol training seminar where I spoke with 2 different law enforcement firearms instructors who both told me to get the RRA 16" A2 stock with the A4 upper. They both told me that Bushy has lately had some QC problems. Not many, but some. I'm also hearing the chrome moly barrel is more accurate and the chrome lined chamber and bore is not neccessary for average use, i.e., less that full auto. I'm sitting on the fence now but I'm definitely leaning toward the RRA.
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 2:46:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sleepercaprice1: I'm not sure, guys. I just got home from an IDPA pistol training seminar where I spoke with 2 different law enforcement firearms instructors who both told me to get the RRA 16" A2 stock with the A4 upper. They both told me that Bushy has lately had some QC problems. Not many, but some. I'm also hearing the chrome moly barrel is more accurate and the chrome lined chamber and bore is not neccessary for average use, i.e., less that full auto. I'm sitting on the fence now but I'm definitely leaning toward the RRA.
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My 1/50th of a dollar: Every manufacturer has had QC issues no matter who they are. There is no such thing as a perfect rifle-if there was then there would be no need for armorers and warranty repair departments. I prefer Colt for example, but if you ask enough people you will hear horror stories about Colt QC. The same can be said for Bushy, RRA, Armalite, Oly, or anyone else. Nothing is perfect, that's why I frequently to direct people to [url=http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum56/HTML/000497.html]this thread[/url] because it is an honest and objective look at the quirks of each major manufacturer. In the past I've owned a Bushy, an RRA, a DPMS, and an Olympic but now I own nothing but Colts. You can't write off an entire manufacturer based on second hand, anecdotal accounts from other people. If you based your purchasing descision purely on that you wouldn't be able to buy anything, because every brand has had its share of problems. Someone who swears by Bushy for example has never had repeated severe problems with theirs, as opposed to me who had major problems with mine. That doesn't mean Bushmaster as a company is bad, but mine certainly was. What I'm trying to say is that you should buy your rifle based on the features that are important to you. Chances are you will be happy with it if you do. In the event that your AR does have problems you will have a warranty to fall back on-not to mention the help of thousands of people here who have been in the same boat and can walk you through fixing just about anything. Rock River Arms makes a beautiful AR, but they aren't perfect either. Brand loyalty is all well and good, but don't think for a second that you will automatically be in for a free ride by choosing one brand versus another. Everything breaks eventually, no matters whose name is on it.
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 3:15:53 PM EDT
Now, I'll throw one more crowbar into the works for ya. Armalite used to employ many of the people with RRA. Armalite has a 16" Carbine A4 that also has a removable front site post. The hanguards are longer than the typical carbine(mid-length), and the bbl is machined down under the handguards to decrease weight a bit. The bbl is typically chrome lined. You can get it w/wo muzzlebreak.
Link Posted: 9/27/2003 11:21:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2003 11:21:45 PM EDT by Lockedon]
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:
Originally Posted By sleepercaprice1: I just sold an old Oly pre-ban shorty my friend couldn't live without. I've been out of the loop for a while and need to catch up. I'm thinking about buying a heavy barrel 16" A2 stocked carbine. I've heard good things about RRA, Bushmaster, DPMS, and Olympic (about in that order) What do you experts think? What should I expect to spend? Thanks.
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All the answers you will get on this forum will point you to Bushmaster. This is because most of the forum members have been abducted by aliens from the planet Bushmaster and surgically altered so that it is the only brand of AR they can recommend. Any of the brands you mentioned (not REALLY sure about Olympic) would work great.
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...must kill DaPhotoGuy......must kill DaPhotoGuy...
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 4:00:40 AM EDT
I think I have my mind made up. It looks like the RRA CAR A4. It has a 16" heavy barrel, A4 upper, A2 buttstock, mid length handguards and I can get the removable front sight for an extra $25 or so. Tha whole package with the front sight and carry handle rear sight should be well under $900. CJan_NH, you're right. Every brand is prone to problems. I just think the RRa has more of the features I want for the price I want to spend. Thanks for the help.
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 4:48:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon:
Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:
Originally Posted By sleepercaprice1: I just sold an old Oly pre-ban shorty my friend couldn't live without. I've been out of the loop for a while and need to catch up. I'm thinking about buying a heavy barrel 16" A2 stocked carbine. I've heard good things about RRA, Bushmaster, DPMS, and Olympic (about in that order) What do you experts think? What should I expect to spend? Thanks.
View Quote
All the answers you will get on this forum will point you to Bushmaster. This is because most of the forum members have been abducted by aliens from the planet Bushmaster and surgically altered so that it is the only brand of AR they can recommend. Any of the brands you mentioned (not REALLY sure about Olympic) would work great.
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...must kill DaPhotoGuy......must kill DaPhotoGuy...
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Yes, that's right Lockedon, I know all about your alien plot to promote Bushmaster. Don't worry though, I'll see you coming! [sniper2]
Link Posted: 9/28/2003 4:51:54 AM EDT
ARAMALITE !!!!
Link Posted: 10/4/2003 4:00:16 AM EDT
Well, It's on order. I wound up getting the RRA CAR A4 with removable carry handle and removable front sight. I like the ability to use whatever optics I decide to use without mounting the optics up high. I also think the 2 stage trigger will be a big plus. I think I got a hell of a deal. Less than $800 for the whole works.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 9:37:30 AM EDT
A personal guarantee, YOU WILL BE VERY PLEASED WITH YOUR CHOICE! enjoy the rifle and the trigger, I'm excited for you! all for under 800 bucks, that just cant be beat.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 2:17:15 PM EDT
The DPMS rifles are every bit as good as everything else out there. Not counting the likes of Hesse and ASA, I'd say you would be hard pressed to find a "bad" AR.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 4:06:02 PM EDT
I should have the rifle in 2-3 weeks. I'll let you know how it shoots when I get it. From what I've been told, I don't think I'll be disappointed.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 8:30:26 AM EDT
I 3RD the Rock River vote. Rock River has chrome lined barrels now too. But I would recommend going with a stainless flat top. Supposedly stainless gives better accuracy than chrome lined. For $602 you could get a RRA stainless flat top upper & a RRA National match lower from these guys. [url]http://www.adcofirearms.com/[/url] Use that extra $300 you save for mags, optics, & ammo.
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