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Posted: 9/15/2003 5:40:48 PM EDT
I just bought a bushy M4 today new. Haven't ahd a chance to shoot it yet. I was wondering what the difference was between a M4 and Car 15?
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 7:42:30 PM EDT
Mostly the barrel profile. I am not sure whether the flat-top recievers came before or after the M4. In my opinion, the M4 looks cooler...
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 8:06:57 PM EDT
The M4 has a 14.5" bbl. with cutouts for accessories like the M-203, ect. Also, the handguards are full size the entire length instead of tapering from large to smaller at the gas block. There is an "M4 stock" that I've seen on the Model 1 web site that looks nicer then the little CAR stock but from what I've seen on Fox News of our troops they have the earlier style CAR stock on their rifles so I don't know if it's a must to have the new style stock to make it a "real" M4. Other then that they are nearly the same. Talk to ya' later. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 8:14:58 PM EDT
WoW.........!! the differences are far too numerous to mention, the barrel is but one, if i had photo capabilities, i'd show you. you said: "I just bought a bushy M4 today new..." that makes it a flat top post-ban, fixed stock with a muzzle brake, step in barrel for grenade launcher & no bayo lug.., right ? a CAR-15, is a pre-ban, fixed carry handle, flash hider, bayo lug, sliding stock, light profile barrel. any questions [:D]
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 8:16:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2003 8:28:18 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]
The "CAR-15" has a long history, with numerous variations. I am going to give you the Readers Digest Large Print Version. When the US sent special forces advisors to Vietnam, some of them were equipped with the XM177E1, equipped with a 10" barrel and 3.5" sound/flash suppressor, aka the CAR-15. [b]WARNING: WAR STORY AHEAD!![/b] When I flew Cobra helicopters in Vietnam way back towards the middle of the last century of the last millenium, we Cobra drivers lusted after the XM177E2, which we called the CAR-15, because it fit into the cockpit of a Cobra without breaking it down. I myself never got my hands on one and was reduced to carrying an M16A1 with the rear takedown pin open so I could squeeze it between the armor plate and the canopy inside the cockpit. The XM177E2 had an 11.5" barrel with a 4.5" sound/flash suppressor. (We also lusted after illegal to possess Swedish K's, folding stock AK's and M3's.) Sometime after the Vietnam conflict, the XM177E2 came under criticism from the Warsaw Pact Nations for it's "illegal" sound/flash suppressor. This largely concerned the status of prisoners of war who were captured with such weapons and/or wearing camouflage when captured. Troops with silenced weapons and/or wearing camouflage could be immediatly shot on sight as spies, according to the Warsaw Pact's interpretation of the treaties. There was an incident when US soldiers, driving US military vehicles, conducting legal inspections in East Germany, were shot by Russian troops shortly after Woodland Camo BDU's were issued. Some A1 upper equipped carbines were issued with a 14.5" barrel, without the sould/flash suppressor, so that Snake Eaters and Rangers could wear OD green jungle fatigues and had a slight chance of being captured before they were shot, and it was still called the CAR-15. Shortly after this, the carbine was equipped with an A2 upper and M4 barrel, and was only called the CAR-15 by Woodland Camo wearing dinosaurs. Eventually the dinosaurs died off and the carbine become universally known as the M4, with the cool looking grenade launcher notch in the barrel, which you don't want to have if you give a damn about barrel harmonics, which, out to 250 meters, don't mean much.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 8:20:12 PM EDT
So do some new "real military" M-4's come with the old style c.a.r type stock?
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 8:24:02 PM EDT
Military M4's have the polycarbonate collapsible stocks. The military has tanks, B-52's, NFW's and aircraft carriers and doesn't give a damn what the BATFE says.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 8:52:00 PM EDT
The CAR-15 has: - M16/M16A1 style upper and lower - short, thin barrel with a 1/12 twist - a 2 position stock made from aluminum or (later) plastic - M16A1-style safe/semi/auto selector The M4 started with: - M16A2 style lower (includes reinforcements and A2 style grip) and an M16A2 style upper. - a barrel that is the heavier A2 weight, has a 1/7 twist and is long enough to mount a bayonet - a plastic stock that looks like the older CAR stock but has 4 positions instead of 2 - larger oval shaped handguards with double heatshields - M16A2-style safe/semi/burst selector Later versions of the M4 include a flat-top upper, different styles of buttstocks, different handguards systems that include accessory rails. The M4A1 uses the older safe/semi/auto selector and uses a heavier barrel that handles the heat better.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 3:00:19 AM EDT
Thanks for the info guys I am glad I got a M4 now. It looks soo good. I want that 37mm "launcher", and a aim point for her next!
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 6:59:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cvfd1399: Thanks for the info guys I am glad I got a M4 now. It looks soo good. I want that 37mm "launcher", and a aim point for her next!
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[url]37mm.com[/url]
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 7:31:15 AM EDT
CAR-15's have been around since late '67-68 and were used by LRP/LRRP units initially. Like Da_Bunny stated helicopter pilots also liked them. The other name for a CAR-15 that you may be more familiar with is XM177E2. The model we see now has an 11.5" bbl and 5.5" FS, A1 sights and teardrop forward assist. They also came with a 2 position collapsible stock. Of course, the M4A1 still uses the A1 sights so the biggest difference between the two would be the barrel/FS configuration. Marc
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 9:32:58 AM EDT
The M4A1 still uses the A1 rear sights(???) Anyone want to confirm this? I assumed that since it was adopted well after the A2, it would have A2 rear sights.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 10:05:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 10:06:13 AM EDT by M4arc]
Originally Posted By Dawg180: The M4A1 still uses the A1 rear sights(???) Anyone want to confirm this? I assumed that since it was adopted well after the A2, it would have A2 rear sights.
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Actually, I'm wrong. Every time I see photos of the IDF M4's, which have the A1 sights, I think those are M4A1s. I guess since they use M4 barrels and A1 sights I just add the two together to come up with M4A1. No matter how many times I realize this I still continue to make the same mistake. My bad.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 10:14:47 AM EDT
No problem. It just means that I will be the only kid on the block with an IDF M4 clone when I get it rebarreled next Sept. [;)]
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 10:28:44 AM EDT
Oh yeah! If the ban sunsets I'd like to do the same. If you do it keep me posted.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 7:48:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 7:52:07 PM EDT by Luckystiff]
This is not the end all of the CAR-15 but this pic does answer what a CAR-15 is. [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/059660.gif[/img] I have a Colt 14.5 inch light wieght barrel like what was found on the 653, but mine is in 1/7 not 1/12. I have seen 14.5 inch light weight Colt barrels with a 4 stamped at the 3 o'clock on the barrel extension indicating it has the "M4" feed ramp barrel extension. This shows that Colt was producing the CAR-15 style carbine with some of the M4 features. Since at least 1999, all Colt Carbines have M4 upper receivers with M4 feed ramps. Colt has used the same stocks on all of its carbines for some time. They have used different buffers but the same stock. [url]http://www.colt.com/law/home.asp[/url] AR-15A2 carbine [img]http://www.colt.com/law/images/ar15a2.jpg[/img] 9MM subgun [img]http://www.colt.com/law/images/smg.jpg[/img] And the Colt M4 [img]http://www.colt.com/law/images/m4.jpg[/img] At this point the only things that make an M4 an M4 are the following: 1. M4 barrel profile. 2. M4 double heat shield handguards. 3. M4 feed ramps.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 8:07:15 PM EDT
[img]http://www.sogarmory.com/ProductImages/5605_3.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 3:52:49 AM EDT
Yea I noticed that the feed ramp is really 2 ramps in one. Correct me if I am wrong but to me it looks like each side of the mag. has it's own feed ramp. SWEET!
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 5:28:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Luckystiff: This is not the end all of the CAR-15 but this pic does answer what a CAR-15 is. [url]http://www.hunt101.com/img/059660.gif[/url] I have a Colt 14.5 inch light wieght barrel like what was found on the 653, but mine is in 1/7 not 1/12. I have seen 14.5 inch light weight Colt barrels with a 4 stamped at the 3 o'clock on the barrel extension indicating it has the "M4" feed ramp barrel extension. This shows that Colt was producing the CAR-15 style carbine with some of the M4 features. Since at least 1999, all Colt Carbines have M4 upper receivers with M4 feed ramps. Colt has used the same stocks on all of its carbines for some time. They have used different buffers but the same stock. [url]http://www.colt.com/law/home.asp[/url] AR-15A2 carbine [url]http://www.colt.com/law/images/ar15a2.jpg[/url] 9MM subgun [url]http://www.colt.com/law/images/smg.jpg[/url] And the Colt M4 [url]http://www.colt.com/law/images/m4.jpg[/url] At this point the only things that make an M4 an M4 are the following: 1. M4 barrel profile. 2. M4 double heat shield handguards. 3. M4 feed ramps.
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thank you for posting those photos, my explanation was a bit fuzzy with out photos, you done GOOD.....!!
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 7:40:32 AM EDT
Luckystiff, ya done good!
Link Posted: 9/17/2003 11:56:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2003 12:09:59 PM EDT by Stryfe]
Originally Posted By cvfd1399: Yea I noticed that the feed ramp is really 2 ramps in one. Correct me if I am wrong but to me it looks like each side of the mag. has it's own feed ramp. SWEET!
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The "M4 feedramp" isn't the two ramps you see, it's an extended length grind that drops down from the original ramps. Many firearms that use double stack magazines have two ramps. It's the added extension that make an M4 ramp. As far as CAR -v- M4. The M4 is a specific model carbine designed by colt to win back a portion of the contract lost to FN. A CAR is any earlier carbine version of the M-16 series. There were carbine lenght A2 varients. What makes an M4 is the barrel profile, the extended feed ramps and the oval profile HGs. The key to all of this is that you realy shouldn't try to label your rifle, you should build it to suit your desires. Different users have different standards and ways of doing things. The USAF version is different than the USA version, is different than the USMC version, is different than the Can version, .....
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