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Posted: 9/15/2003 11:43:37 AM EDT
Here's a question for the board. What happens if/when the AW ban sunsets to the status of "pre-ban" AR receivers? Are they , all of a sudden, legal to build a "pre-ban" rifle from one? If it will be legal then what about people who have a post ban receiver that was already build as a pre ban? Will the "illegal" rifle suddenly be legal? This looks like the potential for a royal clusterfu*k to me. Does anyone else see this happening? I know it's legal for "pre ban" rifles to have all the evil features and it should be legal for "post sunset" rifles to have them as well but what about the group of rifles made between '94 and '04, after the sunset can they have evil features or will this group of rifles have to remain "post ban" even after the sunset. Man, is this confusing. Talk to ya' later. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 12:12:24 PM EDT
that's an interesting point. i would imagine (and this is just my unprofessional opinion) that any rifle or combination of pre-/post-ban parts will suddenly become legal. it would make virtually no sense for current pre-bans and then post-sunset "evil" rifles to be legal, with everything in between still being considered "post-ban".. but then again, most of the anti-gun legislation makes virtually no sense anyways. [:)] i'd be interested to hear what the folks in the know have to say. and what about the price of sp1's etc. if the above proves true? strange times, heh.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 12:17:57 PM EDT
IMHO, all would be legal. The law would no longer exist, so how would you prosecute? Just my .02
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 12:26:36 PM EDT
Wouldn't seem to make sense to maintain the pre-post ban status, but then the BATF was created to raise revenue for the gov't, not make sense. I've talked to a couple dealers who deal in pre & post ban, they intend to have sold their pre-ban receivers, post-ban barrels and muzzle brakes before next Sept....
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 12:38:52 PM EDT
I'm pretty sure the law would be null and void therfore "evil" features would be allowed again. But it would be really funny if you had to check the serial numbers when buying a used rifle. Now is it a pre-ban, post-ban, post-sunset reciever. and if it was a stripped lower before the sunset and then assembled into a post-sunset after the sunset would it be....and if it was blahh bllahhh blahh. That could get really confusing.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 12:53:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2003 12:55:59 PM EDT by 223kid]
exactly. i think the only way the sunset would be able to work - period - is if every notion of a pre-ban rifle was suddenly negated. the anti's might even be aware of this, too, and i'm sure they expect a tremendous rise in crime, suicide, accidents, etc. to follow if the bill passes. i mean, the lack of bayonets, flash suppressors, and telestocks must somehow prevent legally-owned firearms from being used in crimes! -- STICK EM UP, OR I'LL POKE YOU WITH MY BAYONET! (forget about the 30 rnds of .223!)
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 8:37:31 PM EDT
THE SMART THING TO DO SEPTEMBER 2004: Take that 2001 manufacture AR with the pinned stock and bull barrel and replace with the PROPERLY INTENDED parts, (true collapsable stock, flash hider, etc.). Call your local LEO and state that you have retrofitted a formerly post ban weapon into a PROPERLY configured rifle and that you would like to bring it in for verification. If they ask what you want, or "what the heck so you mean" tell them you wish to have a department member inspect the weapon and sign a letter that the weapon has had PROPER components installed on such and such date. That way WHEN this blissful time grinds to a halt and AWs are banned entirely, etc. you have a letter to prove that you legally converted the weapon PRIOR to the creation of the 2006 (or whenever) AWB. This will keep you out of trouble and reassure a buyer that your weapon is a legitimate "Pre-ban".
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 8:45:26 PM EDT
So what do you do if they refuse to co-operate with the verification process? I would just keep the receipts of the stuff that you buy to put on the rifle and forget about alerting the authorities of what you have.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 9:49:06 PM EDT
Or just take pictures of the stuff, and mail them to yourself. Multiple copies. Don't open the envelopes. The postal mark stamped onto the envelope at the PO will have all the date verification you'll need.
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 10:40:46 PM EDT
What if they say Post ban has to stay post ban and you have to buy a new after AWB gun to be legal. GG
Link Posted: 9/15/2003 10:55:39 PM EDT
If the AWB sunsets without some kind of new law starting that day all guns will be treated like prebans. There should be no post and pre ban guns. I would take a picture of the rifle with the evil features that I installed on my postban rifle (which would now be legal) and take it to the post offfice. I would have them post mark the stamps that I put onto the back of the pictures. That would be proof that on that date I had all of those features in case there were any verification problems in the future. Maybe even have a letter written about the changes along with pictures and have it noterized. Can't be too carefull.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 4:23:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 4:24:48 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Originally Posted By Demordrah: Or just take pictures of the stuff, and mail them to yourself. Multiple copies. Don't open the envelopes. The postal mark stamped onto the envelope at the PO will have all the date verification you'll need.
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I am going to do something similar... I want to take my AR-10 and convert it to a pre-ban style CAR-10, take photos, and get the photos and a statement noterized... I also want to build an AR-10 pistol and BELEIVE ME this will get documented and photographed as strongly as possible then noterized. Yea, it will cost me a couple bucks but I think it is a wise investment given what just happened for the last 10-years. Oh yea, if you really want to go for the gusto, get the pictures fully leagalized by sending them to your Sec. of State and the US State Department... Note, I am only going so far as the noterization but perhaps sending a copy of the photos to the ATF for their approval might be a fun idea[}:)]
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 4:35:47 AM EDT
As the expiration date of the AWB draws nearor, I suspect that the ATF will come up with some sort of ruling that will queer the entire deal. Laws can expire, but regulations are like Herpes, they last forever. Should that happen, no politician will be willing to take up the issue. They won't have the orbs to risk going public on an issue that will get them pummeled in the press. The regs have probably already been drawn up, just waiting for the proper time. I don't think the Dems will throw in the towel on this. They will get what they want, no matter what it takes. ATF is a political entity by default as it is part of the Federal government. In practice, it has long done the bidding of that sector of the government that wishes to curtail any and all personal rights. I plan to hold on to my pre-bans. If I am wrong, then I will happily accept their drop in value. If I am right, then I reasoned correctly. However, I hope I am wrong; otherwise, we are all screwed. Peace and tollerance (except to Muslims), Mahatma and his cow-god, My-yass Time to take My-yass on his morning walk, bathe and then worship him. Blessing to My-yass.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 6:32:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pulpsmack: THE SMART THING TO DO SEPTEMBER 2004: Take that 2001 manufacture AR with the pinned stock and bull barrel and replace with the PROPERLY INTENDED parts, (true collapsable stock, flash hider, etc.). Call your local LEO and state that you have retrofitted a formerly post ban weapon into a PROPERLY configured rifle and that you would like to bring it in for verification. If they ask what you want, or "what the heck so you mean" tell them you wish to have a department member inspect the weapon and sign a letter that the weapon has had PROPER components installed on such and such date. That way WHEN this blissful time grinds to a halt and AWs are banned entirely, etc. you have a letter to prove that you legally converted the weapon PRIOR to the creation of the 2006 (or whenever) AWB. This will keep you out of trouble and reassure a buyer that your weapon is a legitimate "Pre-ban".
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You have lost your mind....... TR
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 6:48:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Quarterbore: ... I also want to build an AR-10 pistol and BELEIVE ME this will get documented and photographed as strongly as possible then noterized.
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Thats just crazy, man.[whacko] My hand stings just thinking about it.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 7:42:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By notack:
Originally Posted By Quarterbore: ... I also want to build an AR-10 pistol and BELEIVE ME this will get documented and photographed as strongly as possible then noterized.
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Thats just crazy, man.[whacko] My hand stings just thinking about it.
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No... it's just like a T/C encore... I like the idea of a 22-250 pistol for varmints or even a 308 for deer... you have never seen one as back when it could be done, people just didn't do it as nobody sold just a stripped lower that could be a legal pistol... Also, remember that a pistol can be configured as a rifle BUT a rifle can not be configured as a pistol. As long as I start with the pistol configuration, I can later build it as an AR-10T if I really hate the AR-10 pistol concept. At least this way, I have the option of having that huge AR-10 mag as a starting point for any type of AR-10 pistol in the future... I really am serious that this is VERY high on my list of things to do if the ban is not replaced...
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 8:05:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TNFrank: Here's a question for the board. What happens if/when the AW ban sunsets to the status of "pre-ban" AR receivers? Are they , all of a sudden, legal to build a "pre-ban" rifle from one?
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I thought you could build up a preban rifle from a "preban serial numbered" lower now??? Clarification anyone?
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 8:24:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2003 8:26:13 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Originally Posted By the1_roadrunner:
Originally Posted By TNFrank: Here's a question for the board. What happens if/when the AW ban sunsets to the status of "pre-ban" AR receivers? Are they , all of a sudden, legal to build a "pre-ban" rifle from one?
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I thought you could build up a preban rifle from a "preban serial numbered" lower now??? Clarification anyone?
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Well, if by a "pre-ban" AR receiver you mean a receiver that was assembled as a Pre-Ban rifle into a configuration that made it a pre-ban and later taken apart.... yes, you can reassemble it as a pre-ban... Note, a stripped lower or any lower built before the ban that did not have the required number of evil parts isn't a Pre-Ban receiver even though it was built before the ban. The ban defines a Pre-Ban as having specific characteristics and if the lower wasn't built with those characteristics it is no more of a pre-ban then one built today. Now, some people will challange this, but that is the way the law is written...
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 8:45:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Originally Posted By the1_roadrunner:
Originally Posted By TNFrank: Here's a question for the board. What happens if/when the AW ban sunsets to the status of "pre-ban" AR receivers? Are they , all of a sudden, legal to build a "pre-ban" rifle from one?
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I thought you could build up a preban rifle from a "preban serial numbered" lower now??? Clarification anyone?
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Well, if by a "pre-ban" AR receiver you mean a receiver that was assembled as a Pre-Ban rifle into a configuration that made it a pre-ban and later taken apart.... yes, you can reassemble it as a pre-ban... Note, a stripped lower or any lower built before the ban that did not have the required number of evil parts isn't a Pre-Ban receiver even though it was built before the ban. The ban defines a Pre-Ban as having specific characteristics and if the lower wasn't built with those characteristics it is no more of a pre-ban then one built today. Now, some people will challange this, but that is the way the law is written...
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okay, isn't preban or postban status defined by the the serial number on the lower receiver? In other words, if the serial number on the receiver is GC018500 or lower it is "Preban"? What other way can there be to define ban status than the serial numbers??? Are you saying it's not as simple as a specific cut-off date in the serial numbers? This question also comes to mind... Were serial numbers stamped onto the receivers when the machining of the receiver itself was complete or when the entire rifle assembly is complete? --RR
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 9:47:09 AM EDT
See this link: [url]http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/content/legal/preORpost.html[/url] A serail number is engraved on a receiver when it is made... The ban defines a physical characteristic on a specific date. The serial number is absolutely irrevelant except that you can use the serial number to tell if a manufacture had built the weapon before a specific time. Colt and Armalite are quite safe as they did not sell many if any lowers that were not assembled as a complete weapon. Other manufacturers, PWA, Busgmaster Essential Arms, Eagle Arms, DPMS, etc. sold lots of stripped lowers and unless they had the required evil features before the ban, they can't get them now.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 10:12:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Quarterbore: See this link: [url]http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/content/legal/preORpost.html[/url] A serail number is engraved on a receiver when it is made... The ban defines a physical characteristic on a specific date. The serial number is absolutely irrevelant except that you can use the serial number to tell if a manufacture had built the weapon before a specific time. Colt and Armalite are quite safe as they did not sell many if any lowers that were not assembled as a complete weapon. Other manufacturers, PWA, Busgmaster Essential Arms, Eagle Arms, DPMS, etc. sold lots of stripped lowers and unless they had the required evil features before the ban, they can't get them now.
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Very interesting. Thanks for the link. What all this seems to imply is there are situations in which it may be impossible to proove weather a gun is preban or not... --RR
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 10:48:19 AM EDT
getting back to the original topic..... I believe/hope that all recievers will go back to a status where they can have any/all of the '94 AWB evil features. My question is what will happen to all those LEO magazines that are marked '[red]Law Enforcement Only[/red]'?
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 11:39:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Vector_Joe: getting back to the original topic..... I believe/hope that all recievers will go back to a status where they can have any/all of the '94 AWB evil features. My question is what will happen to all those LEO magazines that are marked '[red]Law Enforcement Only[/red]'?
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Hopefully become a relic of the past.
Link Posted: 9/16/2003 12:28:33 PM EDT
The LEO only thing I would imagine would be more difficult to get rid of. Since it is stamped LEO only they may be able to come up with something that says you can't have them. Who knows. SHouldn't really matter as I would imagine if it does go bye bye we will see an influx of overseas manufacture magazines (i.e. current manufacturer English mags) as well as military surplus past the original ban date. Again, I'm no lawyer, but once the ban sunsets the law goes away as if it never existed. Unless there is something written into the law I can't see how it would act in any other way.
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 7:06:40 AM EDT
The real question is what would happen to a convicted AWB violator/felon who is serving time for something that would no longer illegal?
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 8:28:51 AM EDT
Good point! That is an interesting question. My first thought would be that they would simply be released(if incarcerated) and record expunged, but then again, at the time the were incarcerated the had broken a law. Just because the law is different probably wouldn't make much of a difference. Interesting question...
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 11:55:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rlongnt: The real question is what would happen to a convicted AWB violator/felon who is serving time for something that would no longer illegal?
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This is an interesting point! However, I don't think anyone has been arrested for only violating the AWB. Instead, they were arrested on other charges and the AWB violations were tacked on to extend the time or used for pleas. If they were tacked on to extend the time I’m sure the prosecutors could argue that the individual was dangerous and needs to remain incarcerated because of the original and most serious charge.
Link Posted: 9/22/2003 12:13:34 PM EDT
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