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Posted: 9/9/2003 2:11:49 PM EDT
I was wondering, how many hay bails would it take to stop a SS109(62gr) round? I live in a semi-rural area and have set up a small range to do some test firing at 25M. I have 3 hay bails that I'll shoot into plus the building they are against is made of 1" rough cut lumber so if it gets thru the hay it'll have 2" of wood to go thru as well. Will this be enough? Should I just stop asking questions and go pop off a few rounds? I just want things to be safe before I do any shooting. Talk at ya'll later. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 2:13:13 PM EDT
good grief. pack some sandbags for crying out loud. why experiment?
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 2:13:33 PM EDT
you could find out for us [:D] place something that will show bullet impact behind the bail(s) and let a couple go. Then report back.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 2:19:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 2:26:37 PM EDT
I once shot an old hay bale with a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with bird shot from about 30 feet. The hole was long enough that I was able to reach my arm into it as far as I could. Aside from that minor experience, I have no idea about your specific question. I assume you're talking about the big round bales and not the small square ones?
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 2:37:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 2:43:10 PM EDT
Better hope they don't catch on fire....
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 3:39:06 PM EDT
Well...I think the hay bale to bullet ratio is based on Range Rule #437 "Set as many hay bales downrange as if you were to stand behind the target yourself" [noclue]
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 3:42:13 PM EDT
Hay bails are you crazy?!?! Build up a dirt mound before you hurt somebody!!
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 3:47:15 PM EDT
Having seen 5.56 go through many a large tree, I would say no to the haybail Idea. Should be easy to come up with some dirt.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 3:51:06 PM EDT
In a pinch, you can use a 55 gallon plastic drum filled with dirt. I've tried that and haven't shot through it. We even used a Remington 7mm Magnum. As an added benefit, the plastic is almost self sealing. Mike
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 3:58:54 PM EDT
3,482 bails
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:03:26 PM EDT
Thanks for some of the input so far. I've done some reading and from what I've seen the 5.56 isn't all that good of a penetrator in cilvillian form. That's why alot of police depts. are using it in urban settings. I'm sure you millitary guys have some depleted uranium loads that'll shoot thru a tank but I'm using cheap wolf stuff so I don't think I need to worry about too much penetration. Also, there is nothing on the other side of the hay that'll be hurt if a bullet did get thru, I just wanted to slow it down enough to not pose a threat at long range. I think I'll slip some 1" boards behind the hay, that'll give 3" of wood plus the 3 hay bails, I really don't think it'll get thru that. I'll report back on how it goes. Talk at ya'll later. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:18:24 PM EDT
Hay bails won't slow it down significantly unless it his bailing wire.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:23:58 PM EDT
I wouldn't try with just 3" of wood, maybe 3 feet, but not 3 inches. Civilian ammo is just the same as millitary, maybe better. You would be safer shooting at green lumber and boulders, get some dirt, about 6-8 feet thick and 10 feet high.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:27:24 PM EDT
What if you soak them down with the hose, so they are saturated with water??
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:29:42 PM EDT
LOL...wow Frank. So what's on the otherside of the 2" of wood?
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:46:21 PM EDT
The hay is stacked against a barn made of rough cut lumber. There is an open field on the other side of the barn and woods beyond that. http://www.olyarms.com/gunsite.html The above address is an interesting site that'll give some penetration stats. 2 of the 3 .223Rem. rounds didn't even penetrate two walls let alont 3" of wood and 3 hay bails. I'll let ya'll know tomorrow what happens. Talk at ya'll later. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:50:01 PM EDT
Never tried it, never will! I'm betting that it will take less then 10 rounds to dig a tunnel through the hay that you can see through. Then it is just a question of how long the wood will last until it is also shot away. Get some plans and build a proper backstop, or go to the range like most of us do. BE SMART! Think it through and keep it safe.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:54:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 4:58:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spooge5150: What if you soak them down with the hose, so they are saturated with water??
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[lolabove] [ROFL] [ROFL2]
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:09:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Slash:
Originally Posted By Spooge5150: What if you soak them down with the hose, so they are saturated with water??
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[lolabove] [ROFL] [ROFL2]
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Soak what, the Wolf ammo?
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:21:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2003 5:22:44 PM EDT by TheRedGoat]
No shit. It is going to penetrate ALOT further than y'all think it will. When I was a youngster,my dad bought me and my two brothers deer rifles for Christmas. Mine was a .30-06, theirs were 6mms. Dad set some 3/4" plywood up next to the barn. Several sheets of it as I recall (this was almost 15-20 years ago)... Inside the barn was a 12 FOOT wide horsestall full (floor to ceiling) with hay bales. We put a target on the wood and blasted away. We were ALL surprised that the rounds went through the wood, and into the hay room. What *SHOCKED* us all, after the hay had been fed out, was the fragments of the bullets were found in the [b]opposite[/b] side wall of the hay room. Multiple sheets of 3/4" plywood, the side of the barn, and 12 FEET of hay and the fragments were embedded into a 2x6 on the far side. Not sure how many horses ate lead and copper fragments that fall/winter... Hay is a piss poor bullet stopper. I second the motion of NOT using hay for a backstop. TRG
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:41:04 PM EDT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By Slash: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By Spooge5150: What if you soak them down with the hose, so they are saturated with water?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Soak what, the Wolf ammo? -------------------------------------------- Sorry.... bad joke.... This guy needs real info, not a bunch of smat-ass comments, like mine. I apologize.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 5:56:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spooge5150: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By Slash: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By Spooge5150: What if you soak them down with the hose, so they are saturated with water?? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Soak what, the Wolf ammo? -------------------------------------------- Sorry.... bad joke.... This guy needs real info, not a bunch of smat-ass comments, like mine. I apologize.
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I was being a smart ass too[;)] I think the general consensus here is that HAY is not a very good backstop for ANY round. Like I said earlier, would you stand behind your backstop? If not, then it's not strong enough.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 6:07:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2003 6:11:27 PM EDT by Spooge5150]
Ok! TNFrank. You want to know the benefit of hay bales shooting a [b]SS109[/b] bullet. Well searching the net for data concludes, that a FMJ round will pass right through one like butter. They are effective vs hollow and soft point rounds for [b]richocets[/b] only. Now I think you will find your rounds that, have not only a FMJ but, also a steel penetator will zing right through all three. But, since I am sure you are shooting in a safe direction with no chance of danger.... go for it and tell us what happens. Remember SS109 is for going through steel helmets at long range. Good Luck, and safe shooting! Edit to say: Take Hokie's forumla to heart... "would you stand behind your backstop? If not, then it's not strong enough."
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 6:27:50 PM EDT
And one more thing; as indicated by TRG's post, you need to consider the critters that may eat the hay. That kind of vet care can get really expensive.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 6:34:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2003 6:42:32 PM EDT by TNFrank]
Here's some interesting infor that I found in "Guns Illustrated, 1997 edition" They did a test of millitary round, both past and present and here is the info on a penetration test using oak blocks. 30-06 172gr. FMJ 2640fps. 12.4" 7.62x39 122gr steel core 2400fps. 12.6" and now for the kicker. 223 Rem. 55gr FMJ 3250fps. 5.5" Looks like the 5.56/.223 isn't all that after all. I know the millitary has done real good making a varmit ctg. into a battle rifle round but it's still not anywhere on par with the old .30cal. rounds from days gone by. Also it's not "real" SS109 millitary ammo, it's the cheap Wolf 62gr. stuff so no steel penetrator here. I'd bet it may get thru all three hay bails and maybe even the first wall of the barn but I don't think it'll make it thru the second wall, I may be wrong but I don't think so. Like I said, I'll keep all of ya' posted as to how it turns out. IF it does penetrate everything then I may just have to break down and find some sand bags somewhere. Maybe some old pillow cases filled with dirt might work but I want to see what happens first. Talk at ya'll later. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 6:52:17 PM EDT
TNFrank, Your data is for a single bullet strike. If you are any kind of shot you will have multiple bullet strikes in a small area, the effect will be cumulative. One swing with an axe won't fell a tree, but if you hit it enough, it's going down. One bullet may not penetrate the barn, but if you shoot it enough they eventually will. Use your head dude, this is a very bad idea.
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 7:00:39 PM EDT
do it! i wanna find out what happens [:O]
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 7:10:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By -Absolut-: 3,482 bails
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I'm pretty sure it was 3,483 bails...
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 7:14:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: ...These things go through...mobile homes....
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Did you test that one out yourself Aimless? [ROFL2] hehehe, I'm just messing with you!
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 7:24:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 7:58:52 PM EDT
There are stats on how many 5.56mm rounds it takes to punch through a concrete wall. It akes a while but it wil happen. Anyone have that link to .50 7.62 and 5.56 penetration?
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 4:13:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 4:13:34 AM EDT by Spooge5150]
This might help compare some everyday shooting rounds. [url]http://www.steyrscout.org/terminal.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:15:49 AM EDT
Please do not wet down your hay bails near your barn. Unless you want to explain to you insurance adjustor why you need a new barn. Might as well [pyro] the damn thing!
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:16:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:20:41 AM EDT
a big fat arrow with a broadhead tip with go almost all the way through a bail at 235 fps and you think three of em will stop a bullet from a .223??????? WTF.........were you born yesterday??????? i'd bet my balls that the bullet will go through all three bails, wood, barn and that dumb goat that wandered out into the field :)
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:31:52 AM EDT
This, being perhaps the dumbest idea I've ever heard, still needs a conclusion. I really do want to know what the outcome was. Does it involve dead cattle, or livestock, perhaps damaged stored items. FWIW, don't ask me how I know, a .22lr round can go through a hay bail, then through a refrigerator. It can also penetrate a car's steel skin at about 100 yards.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:33:49 AM EDT
The arrow with the "big, fat broadhead" weighs 600+grs., penetration is more a function of projectile mass then it is velocity. That's why a slower but heaiver AK round will out penetrate a faster but lighter AR round. And NO, I wasn't born yesterday. That's why I'm doing some research and getting some opinions(you know what they say about them) before I pull the trigger. I did tell ya'll that this is just to sight in my rifle, it's not going to be a permanet shooting range. I just want to put 50 or so rounds thru my rifle to sight it in and function test it. I'll keep ya' posted. Talk at ya'll later. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:37:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 6:44:56 AM EDT
What the heck - if he can do it safely, let him try. I'm interested too. And ya'll are missing out on one heck of a betting opportunity. We could be having money ride on this !
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 7:06:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER: They are called [b]HAY BALES[/B] and they [b]ARE NOT![/B] backstops [rolleyes] WTF is wrong with you people?
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Don't blame us, it is the liquor talking. TRG
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 8:24:14 AM EDT
Ya'll give the 5.56x45mm WAY too much credit as a penetrator. Here's the set up I had and here's the results. Just to make ya'll happy I filled a box(6 1/2" thick) with dirt and placed in front of the hay bails. So it's like this: Dirt, hay, 1/2" particle board, hay, 1/2" particle board, hay, barn wall. Firing single shots put the bullet thru the box of dirt and into the hay, but NOT into the first board. Firing a pair put the second bullet thru the dirt and first hay bail, it key holed thru the first board, thru the second hay bail, key holed thru the second board and was stopped by the thrid hay bail, NO HOLE in barn wall. I'm sure if I'd have poped off a mag full it'd have chewed thru the barn, but that's not what I wanted to do, I just wanted to shoot enough to sight in my new rifle. So long as I fired single shots and duct taped the box of dirt after each shot the bullet would just penetrate the dirt and end up in the first hay bail(must have been the tape, LOL). This is with cheap Wolf, 62gr. ammo not good quality SS109 w/steel penetrator. Now that I have the rifle hitting point of aim at 25M I can go to the local range(a single station that the Dept. of Fish & Wildlife has set up for hunters to sight in their rifles) and put some groups on paper at 100yrds and not waste ammo. This has been a fun post, hope ya'll have learned something from it. Talk at ya' later. TN.Frank
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:08:40 AM EDT
Ah, yep, I learned something.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:10:55 AM EDT
Your results are a bit skewed by the addition of the box of dirt. Dirt is one of the toughest materials to shoot through. Your idea of staggering plywood and hay bales is a good one. Theoretically causing the round to deform or begin to yaw after impacting the first barrier, thus increasing the surface area as it passes through subsequent barriers. While one might think that the fibrous nature of hay might make a decent decelerator, remember that hay is hollow. A similar sized bundle of solid wood sticks would dramatically increase the stopping power, as would any material that causes increased deformation or tumbling. Bottom line is, follow common gun safety rules. "Be sure of your target and what's beyond." You can shoot in a concrete parking lot if you want, just be prepared to take full responsibility for the results of your actions.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:18:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 9:31:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 9:32:58 AM EDT by gilfrd]
I have some interesting tid bits to add as well. My experiment was on a pile of wood chips from a recently downed tree. Firing from about 50 yards, I was amazed with the results. After a 20 rnd mag I went digging through the chips and I found about 10 rounds that were almost in perfect condition only flattened out a little on one side. I didn't have to dig far, only about 12 inches or less. I saw lots of fragments from other tips but the almost pristeen condition of those 10 was something that I wasn't expecting at all. Different materials, different results. Next time you go out to the range check to see how far the bullet goes into the dirt backstop, some will be surprised that they only go about 2-4 inches in. Last time I was out at the range, a friend was shooting .308 tracers. After they hit the burm they glowed for another 5 seconds or so, I know they didnt penetrate the dirt much if I could see them burn. Ballistics is some strange stuff. btw, those were Q3131A rounds
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:02:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TNFrank: Thanks for some of the input so far. I've done some reading and from what I've seen the 5.56 isn't all that good of a penetrator in cilvillian form. That's why alot of police depts. are using it in urban settings. I'm sure you millitary guys have some depleted uranium loads that'll shoot thru a tank but I'm using cheap wolf stuff so I don't think I need to worry about too much penetration.
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I've put Wolf 55 grain through trees. Low penetration for urban settings is at best achieved (never a given though) when the round strikes a hard target @ the proper velocity, which causes fragmentation. A soft target like hay bails is nearly as useless as air when it comes to curtailing penetration.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 10:08:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 10:17:41 AM EDT by Slash]
Originally Posted By Striker: For the "record" I shot a 1/2 steel plate at 25 yards with our duty load (federal 55gr HP) and it penetrated the plate with no problem.
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I had a similar experience recently. [pissed] I built a set of swinging 1/2" steel targets for pistol practice. Before I ever even shot one pistol round, I decided to try my new Armalite carbine out. DOH!!! [noclue] From fifty yards I destroyed my brand-new targets. They now look like the surface of the moon - Huge craters. [grenade] This was with Federal XM193 55 gr ball.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 1:37:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2003 1:39:32 PM EDT by DevL]
Found my reference.... The following are some employment considerations as they pertain to specific weapons normally found at the rifle company or platoon level. (1) M16A2 Service Rifle. Rifles are the primary weapon to engage and kill the enemy in MOUT. In addition, rifles are particularly effective in suppressing enemy positions placed in individual windows and doors of buildings because of their ability to deliver accurate fire. To effectively engage small, fleeting targets requires a high degree of accuracy and weapons fired in the semiautomatic mode. Tracer ammunition may be used (after considering building construction and the risk of fires) by unit leaders to direct the fire of their units. Penetration of the 5.56 round is optimal at 200 meters. Because of the close nature of most engagements in urban areas, this penetration will be reduced. The 5.56 round, however, will easily penetrate materials commonly found on the interior of buildings (wooden doors, paneling, Sheetrock, or plaster). The 5.56 round will not penetrate brick and other masonry works initially, but successive rounds may. 2) M249 Squad Automatic Weapon. SAWs should be employed using the same considerations as M16A2s. The penetration capabilities and limitations of the 5.56 rounds are the same. The SAW, however, provides a much greater volume of fire and is, therefore, well suited for suppression of enemy positions and can be utilized to isolate or suppress objectives. The increased rate of fire will also have a corresponding greater destructive effect on buildings and building materials. SAWs are cumbersome in the assault because of their length and weight. This does not mean that they will not participate in the clearing of buildings; rather, they should be placed in a covering team or security team while clearing rooms. TYPE PENETRATION ROUNDS(REQUIRED) 8 inch reinforced concrete Initial 35 Loophole 250 14 inch triple brick Initial 90 Loophole 160 12 inch cinder block with single brick veneer Loophole 60 Breach hole 250 9 inch double brick Initial 70 Loophole 120 16 inch tree trunk or log wall Initial 1 to 3 12 inch cinder block (filled with sand) Loophole 35 24 inch double sandbag wall Initial 220 3/8 inch mild steel door Initial 1 Initial = penetration only, no loophole Loophole = penetration about 7 inches in diameter Breach hole = large enough for a man to enter It takes 35 rounds to penetrate 8 inches of reinforced concrete. And 16" of lumber can be penetrated by one shot. As you can see as you accumulate rounds you can punch through wood / concrete / sandbags all in a single shooting session. A couple inches of wood and some hay won't do shit to stop these rounds. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE BROTHER!
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