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Posted: 9/8/2003 10:17:25 AM EDT
Can't decide what to do here. I have a brand new Bushmaster A3 heavy barrel. Question is who would wait for the possibility of the AW ban to add a real FS and bayonet lug or would you ship it off to Kurt's Kustom and have an A2 style brake installed? I have never had an AR with a brake only pre-ban FS, any advantage to a brake as opposed to a FS or naked barrel?? Anyone going to actually keep their brakes if the ban expires? Very curious and no idea what to do here. Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 11:52:36 AM EDT
Personally, I think a new law will be passed before the old one expires so I'd say go for the brake. BUT, since it's already its legal length why put a brake/flash hider at all? Brake is just for looks and flash hider helps at night, to an extent.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:16:32 PM EDT
Some guys around here think muzzle breaks are great, but I think they're a poor solution to a non-problem. There is so little recoil or muzzle rise with an AR15 that further reduction seems pointless, especially in view of the very large increase in noise which they typically cause. IMHO protection of the muzzle crown is the only useful function performed by a break. A flash suppressor protects the muzzle crown just as well but also makes it practical to shoot in low light or night conditions. I think they're almost a necessity on the carbines, even in daylight. If you're not convinced, go shooting with some nice hot ammo (XM193 or Q3131A) and a plain 16" barrel. In broad daylight you'll see a 12 inch wide and 2-3 foot long fireball right in front of your muzzle. Try it at night and you'll be completely blinded on the first shot and won't be able to see anything for 10 minutes. Putting a light on a plain muzzle carbine is just silly since the very *last* thing you'd want to do is fire it at night. Not everyone around here agrees on this, but I think a flash suppressor is extremely useful while a muzzle break serves about as much purpose as tits on a bull. Just my opinion....
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:40:02 PM EDT
Thanks for the advice guys. What is the flash like on a 20" hbar w/ no FS at night?
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:42:52 PM EDT
its a big ball of fire at the end. bout a foot or more long and its a nice size flash really. thats why i wont put on a brake. i like the flash!
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:45:14 PM EDT
Would the brake even reduse the flash at all?
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 12:50:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By patriot73: Thanks for the advice guys. What is the flash like on a 20" hbar w/ no FS at night?
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nothing at all during the day, don't shoot at night and a brake won't do anything about flash, might increase it actually. Brake re-directs the flash outwards/sideways to help reduce recoil.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 1:08:09 PM EDT
ALL muzzle brakes, Compensators, and of course Flash hiders will decrease the visible flash as seen both from in front and behind the barrel - THIS is why the law makes no sense. The REAL reason for the law was to make it more difficult to attach a SOUND suppresor. (no threads)
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 1:52:18 PM EDT
So anybody have any positives on the muzzle brakes? How much really will a brake reduce flash?
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 2:02:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By patriot73: How much really will a brake reduce flash?
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Not a lot , but you will see a difference as opposed to a bare barrel. Each one is different , and I dont think anyone has run comprehensive tests. My CETME .308 has a HONKING BIG brake on it , and there is very little flash. My AR 16" Hbar bare muzzle makes a BIG ball o fire [:D]
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 2:28:40 PM EDT
Interesting. I'd like to know about how much the AR brake reduces flash or benefits the rifle in any other way.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 4:49:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 8:32:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By patriot73: So anybody have any positives on the muzzle brakes? How much really will a brake reduce flash?
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Depends on the brake, some more - or less than others, or none at all.
Link Posted: 9/8/2003 10:10:29 PM EDT
do one of KKF's fake flash hiders, threaded and pinned to be legal. Then if the ban sunsets, you can take off the Fake flash hider and put on a real one, the threads will already be there. I'll look beter than a naked muzzle & protect the crown without the noise & fireworks of a brake. they are pretty nice looking, really. for a postban item. http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/catalog/item/29585/16550.htm#image_1
Link Posted: 9/9/2003 1:45:31 PM EDT
Thanks. Given the fact that I have been shooting AR's for 20 plus years you can imagine how annoying it is to look at that naked muzzle. I hope the Commies are happy, they made my rifle look lame. I guess we are all safer now. The dealer I bought the rifle from said if it has no flash hider or lug, it is simply just not a dangerous weapon. I didn't know that a flash hider and bayonet lug had such an impact on the lethality of a rifle. Blew me away.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 1:41:09 AM EDT
I must disagree with some here. IMO it is too close to the AWB to do a darn thing (the terminally impatient are exepmt from this). I bought a Bushmaster 20" A3 Target model with much careful deliberation. Any respectable AR owner will sooner or later have at least one 20" GI, and one 16" M4 style rifle. I decided to get the 20" A3 because the only issue that sets it aside from a (temporarily) soon to be extinct AW is the barrel's lack of a FS & bayonet lug. My plan is to yank the HBAR out and replace it with a (formerly) pre-ban 20" gov't profile barrel. If I did it any other way I wouldn't be happy because I would miss that bayonet lug. If you are like me then why waste your $ on something that you will replace after the AWB anyway? Save it for the replacement barrel. What if I'm wrong about the AWB? You think you can't do a KKF/brake job AFTER 9/04? As for the brake, I HATE them. I have one on a CETME .308 and will NEVER get another muzzle brake. The noise is obnoxious to the point of rage. On the other hand I don't like the naked look of the bull barrel either. I can empathize with those who opted on the Brake simply because they could not bear the naked look of the barrel. The point is though that you only have 1 year to bear that cross of nakedness. The look doesn't bother me any more, but I will nonetheless be the 1st in line to get a barrel with a FS when I can. Summary: Unless you CANNOT POSSIBLY wait for next year, save your $ skip it altogether. If you don't buy into my philosophy or just HAVE to cover the muzzle then go with Kurt's. I never had work with them but hear very good things about their work.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 5:20:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AKsRule: ALL muzzle brakes, Compensators, and of course Flash hiders will decrease the visible flash as seen both from in front and behind the barrel - THIS is why the law makes no sense. The REAL reason for the law was to make it more difficult to attach a SOUND suppresor. (no threads)
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You've got to be kidding, right? Most muzzle brakes will turn your rifle into a flamethrower. Especially stuff like the AK brake, which will redirect all the blast to the top and sides. I have tried several brakes over time, None of them reduce the visible flash. The AK and the Smith brakes put a SOLID 3' flame all around the muzzle.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 7:44:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By patriot73: Thanks for the advice guys. What is the flash like on a 20" hbar w/ no FS at night?
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Depends entirely on the ammo used. Anywhere from a huge fireball to a little orange flame. From what I've seen Black Hills has some of the lowest flash ammo around.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 7:53:13 AM EDT
Yeah what forrest said. I was at a rifle class during a night shoot one time and the instructor wanted to show us the difference. Only one of us did not have a FS and when he fired there was no flash. Don't remember what ammo he was shooting. Recently i was at another night shoot. The guy next to me had a GI type FS and was apparently shooting gasoline filled rounds, i mean he had like a 1.5-2 ft flame coming out! It was very distracting but did not affect my night vision perceptibly. I don't think the value of a FS is preserving your night vision, i think it is simply to make it a little harder for the BG to figure out where you are. With a FS you'd see a point of light if someone shot at you, without you might see a big fireball illuminating the shooters surroundings somewhat.
Link Posted: 9/10/2003 11:21:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MADM16A1:
Originally Posted By AKsRule: ALL muzzle brakes, Compensators, and of course Flash hiders will decrease the visible flash as seen both from in front and behind the barrel - THIS is why the law makes no sense. The REAL reason for the law was to make it more difficult to attach a SOUND suppresor. (no threads)
View Quote
You've got to be kidding, right? Most muzzle brakes will turn your rifle into a flamethrower. Especially stuff like the AK brake, which will redirect all the blast to the top and sides. I have tried several brakes over time, None of them reduce the visible flash. The AK and the Smith brakes put a SOLID 3' flame all around the muzzle.
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It's been my experience FS do not actually make the flash disappear, they just offer more points of exit for the escaping gases, thereby reducing the brightness and/or size of the fireball. There are some brakes/compensators on the market that are great at reducing the muzzle flash of a rifle, then again there are some brakes/compensators that are virtually useless except for looks.
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