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Posted: 9/5/2003 9:15:12 PM EDT
I'm looking to purchase a new Colt or Bushmaster M4A3 model. The 16" with compensator and removeable handle. The best prices I have found puts the Colt at $50 more. Is it worth the extra $50? The Bushmaster is 6.59lbs and the Colt 7.3, where is the weight difference? Is it all under the handguards or is it evenly spread out in the different components? I have heard allot of people complain about the Bushmaster mini y compensator, should I stay away from it? Is the Colt compensator better? Any other pluses and minuses would be apreciated. Thanks, Mike
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 9:44:48 PM EDT
First the reasons why I would not buy the colt is because they dont support your right to keep and bear arms,and the lower receiver parts are the larger diameter non standard type and they have the worst customer service making you feel like they did you a favor by letting you buy their rifle.Bushmaster has excellent service and in my opinion the closest to spec AR15 made,Go bushmaster you wont be sorry.
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 10:03:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2003 10:07:21 PM EDT by Lockedon]
[B] BUSHMASTER SERVICE IS AWESOME!!!![/B] Having said that, I second everything Model927 told you. Thirdly, ALL Compensators SUCK!!! They are worthless on semi-automatic .223s. Flashhiders (on pre-bans)or CUSTOM made compensators are the only way to go. I had a Bushmaster M4A3 with the Mini-y comp, up until this week...I hated it so much that i send bushmaster an e-mail expressing why i didn't like it and that i've had less than 80 rounds through it (i had gotten it less than a month ago, my second bushmaster), and offered to have it replaced for a 16" fluted barrel, and I would pay the difference. The next day they send me a letter saying that they'd gladly do the exchange for FREE!!! All i'd have to do is pay for shipping. I send it off on thursday, and will have a thread on the end result once i get my upper back. This was precisely the sixth time Bushmaster Customer Service has completely rocked my world! I'd be more than glad to elaborate if you wish to IM me. Go with Bushmaster whywork40....I will start a flame war with this, but i couldn't care less I know i'm right! (so don't bother trying to convince me otherwise): [size=6]BUSHMASTER KICKs COLT'S ASS IN EVERY POSSIBLE IMAGINABLE WAY!!![/size=6] there, hehehe, let the flamewar begin...[}:D][}:D][}:D][}:D]
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 10:32:06 PM EDT
I like my preban Colt but everytime I go to the local gun store them new Bushmasters keep calling to me. Old = Colt. New = Bushmaster. That's my .02.
Link Posted: 9/5/2003 10:36:27 PM EDT
Lockedon is right on the money. I don't have as much experience as some here but here is what has formed my opinion. I have owned three colt's 20" Hbar-intermittent function problems, failure to feed. 16" Govt carbine-intermittent function, failure to feed. 20" Govt barrel 100% function. I have now owned FIVE bushmasters 14.5" preban 100% 14.5" postban (x2) 100% 16" preban 100% 11.5/5.5" preban 100% Add to this the fact that bushmaster is as close to mil-spec as is available (sans auto fire control) and they are also a Govt contract supplier for the M16/M4, not to mention cheaper and easier to work with and I have no conflict on the colt vs bushmaster decision. As for the people who just got to have that pony on the side of their lower then I am happy for them, after all this is a free contry.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 11:45:21 AM EDT
I own a Colt AR15A3(stamped) that is about 4 years old, it has been flawless. I own a Bushmaster M4 on a preban lower, it has also been very good. Given your options, I would go with the Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 12:34:57 PM EDT
Forget both of those and get a RRA M4 from Steve @ [url=www.adcofirearms.com]ADCO[/url] or Pete @ [url=www.ar15sales.com]Legal Transfers[/url]. Quality will be better than Colt or Bushmaster, price will be better than Bushmaster and you won't find better customer service.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 2:14:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2003 2:15:10 PM EDT by model927]
the only thing about rock river is the barrels are not spec 4150 steel they are 4140 and I dont know if they are MP inspected also the upper receiver rear take down pin lug is a little shorter than spec because the RRA lower shelf,flat surface of lower above safety is higher to discourage a drop in auto sear,but it makes upper and lower fit a bit tighter and way tight if you have a RRA lower with say a bushmaster upper,Like LOKEDOWN and JSTEP say bushmaster is the way to go,You can bet your life on that.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 4:04:57 PM EDT
One last thing about compensators: They are a complete waste of barrel length. For example, with a 14.5" barrel, you MUST have a compensator to bring it up to 16". So you get 14.5 velocity, with 16" size and bulk. Check out this chart: [url]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/#fragrange[/url]
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 4:27:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By whywork40: I'm looking to purchase a new Colt or Bushmaster M4A3 model. The 16" with compensator and removeable handle. The best prices I have found puts the Colt at $50 more. Is it worth the extra $50? The Bushmaster is 6.59lbs and the Colt 7.3, where is the weight difference? Is it all under the handguards or is it evenly spread out in the different components? I have heard allot of people complain about the Bushmaster mini y compensator, should I stay away from it? Is the Colt compensator better? Any other pluses and minuses would be apreciated. Thanks, Mike
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-------- Trust me, you will dig the Bushmaster. I have a new M-4 A-2(1 month old, 130 rounds so far) and it rocks(former Marine '79-'84). Its perfectly dependable(never had a malfunction), and very accurate. Top quality. No problems here with the mini Y. Muzzle climb is minimal. In fact I like it, as much if not more than the A-2 flash suppressor. And I like a whole lot more than the A-1 flash suppressor.
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 4:31:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2003 4:32:45 PM EDT by IronBalaclava]
I've got a had a Bushy M4A3 for the longest 10,500 rds. later it's still chugging away. The Y-Comp don't bother me none. Go with the Bushy. However, If you are an M4 nut like myself you will NEED the Bushy M4A3, you will NEED the Rock River Arms M4 Entry Tactical and you will NEED the Colt 6400C M4. I'm currently on my 2nd M4A3 project: RRA Entry tactical M4A3 that I purchased from steve at ADCO. Complete RRA Lower/pinned car stock: $250.00 M4 entry tactical upper/1\9 twist Chrome lined bbl/bolt/carrier/c.handle/No Tac carry handle:$446.78 TOTAL: $696.78 for a weapon that costs $900+.factory complete! Go figure!
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 5:35:12 PM EDT
i think i have the best of both world with my bushy full lower and six position stock with on top of that my colt M4 upper. i get great parts and standrd spec and i get true M4 feed cut and 1in7 barell. works like a charm.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 7:12:19 AM EDT
Oh man, I just love these types of discussions! So you wouldn’t buy a RRA just because the barrel is 4140? Based on your logic you should not have purchased a Bushmaster either because mil-spec calls for a 1:7 twist but the Bushmaster M4 comes with a 1:9 twist. Oh, here’s something else: my Bushmaster bolt was not Magnetic Particle (MP) tested but Colt bolts are. I believe mil-spec calls for it to be Magnetic Particle tested. As far as M4’s go, mil-spec calls for feed ramps but my Bushmaster does not have them. Armalite & DPMS have them, so I guess that makes them mil-spec? See the point I’m trying to get across? None of them are mil-spec and the statements above just spread false information. One more thing, RRA has DOD/LEO contracts too so there are plenty of people that bet their lives on them too. If you like Bushmaster’s that’s fine but spreading incorrect information around isn’t going to do anyone on this board any good. I almost forgot! Mil-specs are not an exact measurement but instead range of acceptable measurements like, .073-.093 type of thing. Just because it has a high shelf doesn’t mean it’s out of spec but it may just be more to one end of the spectrum
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 8:22:27 AM EDT
ummm.....M4arc? An all mil-spec M4 would be close to impossible to get, and would prolly cost you around $10,000 plus the $200 tax stamp, and heaps of paperwork. Fact is, most of us are in the market for whatever is closest to mil-spec. Every brand lacks some mil-specs. We need to be able to COMPROMISE which we can live without. For example, 4150 is a very important feature when you live/are in humid regions (FL in my case). Mil-spec calls for 1/7, however the range of most of the ammunition civilians shoot, would be better stabilized in 1/9 (READ THIS: [url]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/#whattwist[/url] Who needs a Magnetic Particle tested bolt when nobody in colt customer serivice is feels like explaining what it is to you? (by the way, it doesn't make a bloody difference if they are or not) Personally, I can live with the supposed "shortcomings" of bushmaster, and i still would take a beat up, run down bushy, over any other new brand. And hey, if anything should go wrong with that perticular beat up AR, i'll have some customer support that doesn't call me an asshole before they hang up.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 9:13:41 AM EDT
Most folks know I generally like Bushmaster rifles, but on the M4 version, I think the Colt has the edge... You do pay a little more but you get a little more too. Some of the extras you get may not mean anything to you, and if they dont, then pay no mind. But, with the Colt, you get the enhanced feedramp cuts that may not be necessary, but are nice nevertheless. You also get a side sling mount which is another nice upgrade. You also get Colt M4 handgaurds which I dont like as much as say the RAS/2 handgaurds or the SIR for that matter, but I like the fatter M4 handgaurds over the standard ones. To this day I have no idea why Bushmaster does not include their [b][u]M4 style[/b][/u] handgaurds on their [b][u]M4 style[/b][/u] rifle? The Colt barrel will also be 1/7 twist which can better handle the heavier grain bullets which are more recently being looked at and used a lot more. Both have obnoxious looking muzzle brakes, but the Colts, to my understanding, can be removed. Bushmaster's is permanently attached. Colt comes with a nice cleaning kit, but no case (just a box). The Bushmaster does come with a fairly decent case, better than the ones they were giving when I got mine. Colt has lousey customer service and I would rather support Bushmaster, but in my opinion, the Colt M4 is nicer than the Bushmaster. Bottom line, however, is you will enjoy either and either will do what you want it to.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 9:16:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2003 9:17:47 AM EDT by M4arc]
Lockedon, I don't disagree with anything you are saying and I didn't dispute any of your comments. I just hate to see all the mil-spec BS being tossed around when it only applies to one brand. Like you said, some are closer than others and we have to compromise. When I made the suggestion that WhyWork40 check out RRA model927 jumped in with RRA not following spec. I just used his examples (and a couple others) to try and help others realize this. I've read Troy's ammo oracle document and it's awesome. I don't recall debating which rifling twist would be better or what difference MP testing makes on bolt.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 9:21:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon: Thirdly, ALL Compensators SUCK!!! They are worthless on semi-automatic .223s. Flashhiders (on pre-bans)or CUSTOM made compensators are the only way to go.
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100% [BS], but, get what you like. Bushmaster does have good CS. Both Colt and Bushmaster rifles are going to see you through the night. Try to check them both out, and go with the one you like the best.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 1:00:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4arc: Lockedon, I don't disagree with anything you are saying and I didn't dispute any of your comments. I just hate to see all the mil-spec BS being tossed around when it only applies to one brand. Like you said, some are closer than others and we have to compromise. When I made the suggestion that WhyWork40 check out RRA model927 jumped in with RRA not following spec. I just used his examples (and a couple others) to try and help others realize this. I've read Troy's ammo oracle document and it's awesome. I don't recall debating which rifling twist would be better or what difference MP testing makes on bolt.
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Reading over it, I realize that i sounded like i was trying to prove you wrong. What i ment was to shed light on the mil-spec compromises we have to make. Bottom line Whywork40, get whichever one you TRULY WANT...trust me, i tend to settle for cheaper options, but then always go for what i really wanted to begin with (and end up spending more money)
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 2:09:10 PM EDT
It's all good! [:D]
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 2:58:44 PM EDT
I went through this a few months ago. I went with the Colt and never looked back. I'm very pleased with it.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 3:18:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2003 3:45:27 PM EDT by model927]
to M4 arc if your going to call me a liar just say it,fact is RRA is the only AR with the high shelf and maybe its not out of spec but ive never seen any ARs fit that tight when using diferent lowers than theirs or vice versa their lowers with others uppers. and as far as feed ramps FN made rifles dont have it colt has them to make their weapon unique sice they have the monopoly on the production of the M4,But remember back in 91 bushmaster made a run of M4s for the military and aside from full auto components the dimensions and materials used were and are identical to what they are cranking out other than the 1/7 standard twist wich you can order from them,so thats the proof that they are the closest or the military would not have accepted the 3000 made for them wich colt tried to sue them for.and the SPR rifles that the military fields have 1/9 twist although the 1/7 is the standard but it was done to stabilize the new tracer thats almost never used and it is good for heavier bullets.Bushmaster bolts are MP inspected they just dont mark them and maybe I should have said the bushmaster is the closest to the spec but its not misinformation.Soldier of fortunes premeire issu of "fighting firearms"back in 91 show the militarys bushmaster supplied M4s and to my knoweledge bushmaster has not changed the recipe,nothing is true to spec unless its a real M4 but bushmaster is the closest.So I use the bushmaster as the basis for all others to be compared to because besides FN and colt Bushmaster is the only other company that supplied complete weapons for a military contract even though it was 12 years ago.So when you can see that colt,bushmaster and FN rifles dont have the higher shelf I would equate that with not being to spec because rifles being used dont have it and rock river is a well made AR if I had one Id just change the barrel but thats me and I am entitled to my opinion I didnt attack you or rock river I was stating my preferences along with some facts Im not god and never expect my word to be taken for such Im 33 and have 16 years experience with ARs,civilian ones and the real deal so I dont think what I had to say is mis information,Ive shot the coltA2 and the FN A2 I never had any M4 experience at that time. I bought my first AR a couple of years after I got out witch was a colt 6601 late model blue label and then my Bushmaster in 93,I got rid of the colt because the Bushmaster was closer to what I carried in my brief time in the service,back then the colt was top and new when I went in in 87, and Bushmaster a new company that had won a government contract 3 years later.If FN made civie ARs I would have probably got that instead of the Bushy back then but they didnt so I bought the closest one I could after finding out the colt wasnt after I tried replacing a disconector that was too small a hole for the colt.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 3:34:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2003 4:03:56 PM EDT by AMOS]
I sent a pistol back that was on their recall list. Took colt a year and half for them to return it! They lost it at one time, I called them several times and wrote them. Everybody I talked to did not care and was very rude. At that time they were doing the Gov contract for the A2s. They were doing the mod for free, but still you need to take care of your customers! Having said that, I own a pre ban BM that has YET to give me a problem. I have ordered several Barrels from BM, one took a while, the other was shipped ASAP. Yeah Bushmaster had some problems back a few years with over torqued BBls. But they made all them good. I gave my Nephew a NIB pre ban Colt AR Sporter that I had bought back in the early nineties. The rifle works great and has not given my Nephew any problems. Very smooth action. Now my dislikes are it has a large hole forward pivot screw instead of a push pin which is on all mil spec colts, and all the clones. What this means, you cannot easily interchange uppers-this sucks. If you want to have an extra upper with different Bbl. length, you must purchase a colt upper, or use and adapter screw. You have to use tools to change the uppers. With the small forward pivot push pin, you can buy just about anyone's upper and change it out on your lower in 15 seconds or less without tools, and don't have to worry about the pivot screw coming loose. Oh yeah, the prices are cheaper for the clone uppers too! I keep on hearing that colt is going to change all the Civilian made ARs to the small pin pivot, I haven't seen one yet. The large pin fire control parts suck, you have to go back to colt for replacments-everybody else uses the small pin FC parts-you can buy them from a bunch of different suppliers. I like BM a lot, I have several Oly arms pre ban ARs too. Having said that, I don't think I would buy another Oly, the only reason I haven't sold my Olys is that they are pre bans, and I could not replace them. Two of them now sport BM chrome line bbls. If I was buying another complete upper, I would make sure it had fluted Bbl. and that it was chrome lined. Lighter, stiffer, and more surface area for cooling which should help in Bbl life. BTW, Lately, I bought some RRA parts, two receivers, and a flat top upper, the quality is great, and on par with BM, but the price was cheaper. Regardless of which brand of rifle you purchase, watch out for some dealer who might buy a name brand lower, and assemble it to a cheap upper with cheap bbl and other components. You might think you are getting a factory assembled BM, or RRA, with warranty, when what you are buying is UK brand parts gun with a brand name lower. You can even buy a colt complete lower in the Shotgun news. I keep on seeing post here about people buying what they think is a factory built ar, but after further investigation find it is not! Some dealer built it so they could get around the FET, saves them 11% or so. If they use cheaper bolt carriers and other parts, the savings can be more. Check out the EE as ADCO Firearms, Legal Transfers, and others have great prices-they ship so fast, it will make your head swim.
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