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Posted: 9/2/2003 8:57:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2003 4:57:23 AM EDT by Lockedon]
It is to my understanding that we can mount any type of collapsable stock, OR flash-hider, OR bayonet lug to our ARs

AS LONG AS:

we remove the pistol grip, or remove/disable the gas-tube (making it basically bolt action.)

Neither, espcially the latter of the two is not a good compromise, but just a thought.
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 9:12:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon: or remove/disable the gas-tube (making it basically bolt action.)
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i didn't know that by turning your semi-auto into a repeater, you could get around the awb. but i guess it makes sense because your rifle is no longer semi-auto. is this true[?] anyone? ps. if you permanently attached the magazine you could also pick up one of thoes three features. but i'm sure you already knew that[;)]
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 9:15:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2003 9:18:24 PM EDT by Klinger_04]
wait i think i might be wrong about something.... no i think i'm correct
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 9:32:19 PM EDT
I remember this being gone over before. Yes, if you disable the semi-automatic system so that you have to manually cock it for each shot, you can have all the evil features you want. Simply removing the gas tube should be sufficient, but I would recommend plugging the gas port on the gas block or sight tower as well. Definitely, do that. Your eyes will thank you for not getting hot gas blown into them. CJ
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 9:33:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 7:34:17 AM EDT
Check out the California Legal Assault Rifle, produce and marketed by DPMS. You can add any of your accessories to it and still be legal. Who says loopholes are all bad. [url]http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=RFA2-PU[/url]
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 9:59:54 AM EDT
kinda cool ^ pump rifle
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 11:28:13 AM EDT
I have to admit, that is an extraordinarily cool solution to the problem. If its action is as smooth as any decent pump shotgun's, then this is a rifle that can probably stand on its own in comparison to your average AR. Not saying it's better, but I don't have any problem with a pump action rifle like this. I've seen pump action rifles before, (mostly .22's) that were fugly, but this...this is cool enough that when word gets around, a lot of those of us who are afflicted with the AR bug will probably just HAVE to have one! Good job, DPMS! CJ
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 11:35:40 AM EDT
Doesn't the $1695 seem a little steep?
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 10:27:51 PM EDT
with not as much recoil as a 12gauge like i'm accustomed to, i'm sure you could get a decent rate of fire out of it...but i still wouldn't buy one...
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 10:33:46 PM EDT
How about welding a magazine in the reciever and loading w/ stripper clips? No? Rob
Link Posted: 9/3/2003 10:56:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2003 10:57:29 PM EDT by Lockedon]
Originally Posted By a320az: How about welding a magazine in the reciever and loading w/ stripper clips? No? Rob
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how would that work? What comes to my mind is that you'd have to push out the rear pin, lift the upper from the lower reciever, and load the magazine mauser style...seems like alot of work. Also you'd only get one additional item. ie collapible stock, FH...
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 12:32:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon:
Originally Posted By a320az: How about welding a magazine in the reciever and loading w/ stripper clips? No? Rob
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how would that work? What comes to my mind is that you'd have to push out the rear pin, lift the upper from the lower reciever, and load the magazine mauser style...seems like alot of work.
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Yep, that's how you'd have to reload it. Here's one from atlanticfirearms.com that's sold for those unfortunate California residents, I guess they just have to live with the inconvenience in order to have an AR . . . [img]http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/images/fab10.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 12:38:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By texasblueline:
Originally Posted By Lockedon:
Originally Posted By a320az: How about welding a magazine in the reciever and loading w/ stripper clips? No? Rob
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how would that work? What comes to my mind is that you'd have to push out the rear pin, lift the upper from the lower reciever, and load the magazine mauser style...seems like alot of work.
View Quote
Yep, that's how you'd have to reload it. Here's one from atlanticfirearms.com that's sold for those unfortunate California residents, I guess they just have to live with the inconvenience in order to have an AR . . . [url]http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/images/fab10.jpg[/url]
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Why does it have a fixed "commando" style stock? I would think they would get one item bc the internal mag. Yeah, thats how I was thinking. Remove rear pin let upper fold over, and load. Rob
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 1:31:18 AM EDT
Here’s a Slightly more interesting thought: I own a fully Automatic Capable M16. The AW Ban made it illegal to own a variety of Semi-Automatic rifles or pistols if they had more than a certain amount of “Bad Features”. But Assault Weapons, for the most part, are all Semi-Only. It’s rare that you will find a True Assault Rifle; Full Auto Capable. In my State, I can buy a Full Auto Capable rifle or pistol if I had enough money. But I cannot legally buy a “Post Ban”, Semi-Only “Assault Weapon”.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 1:35:28 AM EDT
Wow! That is about some bullshit.....
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 7:14:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2003 7:16:46 AM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By Klinger_04:
Originally Posted By Lockedon: or remove/disable the gas-tube (making it basically bolt action.)
View Quote
ps. if you permanently attached the magazine you could also pick up one of thoes three features. but i'm sure you already knew that[;)]
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Actually, that is not accurate to the letter of the law. A semiautomatic assault rifle is defined by the BATF as (http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.htm): A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine AND has at least 2 of-- (1) A folding or telescoping stock, (2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, (3) A bayonet mount, (4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, and (5) A grenade launcher; Notice that if the rifle does not have a detachable magazine, then it does not meet the criteria for being a semiautomatic assault rifle. You could therefore have ALL, not just one of the above listed features on it. The key is, the magazine must be permanently fixed in place, as in the Kalifornia receivers mentioned above, or as in the SKS rifle. You cannot have a grenade launcher because it is considered a DD (destructive device) by the BATF.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 7:15:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By a320az: Why does it have a fixed "commando" style stock? I would think they would get one item bc the internal mag. Yeah, thats how I was thinking. Remove rear pin let upper fold over, and load. Rob
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By having an internal mag, the [url=gogogadgets.net]FAB 10[/url], by definition, is not an AW, and is not resticted by the AW ban.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 9:39:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2003 9:42:27 AM EDT by a320az]
Originally Posted By notack: By having an internal mag, the [url=gogogadgets.net]FAB 10[/url], by definition, is not an AW, and is not resticted by the AW ban.
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________________________________________________ I know this, I am asking why it has a fixed and not tele stock on it. Rob ________________________________________________
Originally Posted By _DR: quote] Actually, that is not accurate to the letter of the law. A semiautomatic assault rifle is defined by the BATF as (http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.htm): A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine AND has at least 2 of-- (1) A folding or telescoping stock, (2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, (3) A bayonet mount, (4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, and (5) A grenade launcher; Notice that if the rifle does not have a detachable magazine, then it does not meet the criteria for being a semiautomatic assault rifle. You could therefore have ALL, not just one of the above listed features on it. The key is, the magazine must be permanently fixed in place, as in the Kalifornia receivers mentioned above, or as in the SKS rifle. You cannot have a grenade launcher because it is considered a DD (destructive device) by the BATF.
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[hail2] I think we have a winner. Very good DR. This could all be done with a 30rnd mag as well? I am inder the impression that a grenade launcher is NOT a DD, however the rounds are, ie. frag,HE. But there are flares for them and smoke grenades correct?[hail2] Rob
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 9:54:47 AM EDT
You can also do this to make a postban legal AR or AK pistol. Wasn't there somebody selling an AK pistol with a 75rd drum welded to it? Once you get rid of a) semi-auto or b)detachable mag, you can do anyhting you want to it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 11:19:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By Klinger_04:
Originally Posted By Lockedon: or remove/disable the gas-tube (making it basically bolt action.)
View Quote
ps. if you permanently attached the magazine you could also pick up one of thoes three features. but i'm sure you already knew that
View Quote
Actually, that is not accurate to the letter of the law. A semiautomatic assault rifle is defined by the BATF as (http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.htm): A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine AND has at least 2 of-- (1) A folding or telescoping stock, (2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, (3) A bayonet mount, (4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, and (5) A grenade launcher; Notice that if the rifle does not have a detachable magazine, then it does not meet the criteria for being a semiautomatic assault rifle. You could therefore have ALL, not just one of the above listed features on it. The key is, the magazine must be permanently fixed in place, as in the Kalifornia receivers mentioned above, or as in the SKS rifle.
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ok, ok, my bad. thank you for correcting me.[:I] i thought that the magazine thing wasn't correct after i posted that. Another example of what happens when you speak BEFORE you do the reserch.[;)]
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 11:24:03 AM EDT
If I may interject:
Originally Posted By a320az: [hail2] ...I am [u]nder the impression that a grenade launcher is NOT a DD, however the rounds are, ie. frag,HE. But there are flares for them and smoke grenades correct?[hail2] Rob
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A "TRUE" grenade launcher such as the M203 is a 40mm inside diameter weapon with RIFLING to stabilise the projectile. A "M2037" is a 37mm 'Flare Launcher' with a SMOOTH bore. I am ignorant of the exact criteria for determining a DD by the ATF. I 'beleive' the DD criteria has to do with the application of the apparatus. Hence there are no commercially manufactured & marketed High Explosive rounds for 37mm. Example: there were HE rounds for a 2.75" and 3.5" 'bazooka' apparatus, so these devices have to be 'demilled' or registered as DD's. The rounds themselves would fall under even more stringent legal guidelines as they are explosive material. Clear as mud, just like most law... [banghead] Of course, I could be wrong about all of this too...
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 11:47:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2003 12:18:06 PM EDT by _DR]
Originally Posted By a320az: I am inder the impression that a grenade launcher is NOT a DD, however the rounds are, ie. frag,HE. But there are flares for them and smoke grenades correct?[hail2] Rob
View Quote
Here is the criteria that is used to determine if it is a DD. Per BATF ******************************************** Destructive device. (a) Any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (1) bomb, (2) grenade, (3) rocket having a propellant charge of more than 4 ounces, (4) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (5) mine, or (6) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding paragraphs of this definition; (b) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and (c) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in paragraph (a) or (b) of this section and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. ****************************************** I think the part about "which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter" covers the 40mm grenade launcher as being a DD (40mm = 1.57 inches). The internal diameter of the 37mm is 1.45 inches, but there are no exposive ammunitions readily available for it commmercially, only flares and smoke. Somewhat of a grayish area, though. (again, from http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.htm) On the issue of the 30 round mag vs a 20 or less, there is the issue of the practicality of storing, transporting and maintenance on a rifle with a long magazine permanently affixed mag extending below the mag well, the 20 might be tolerable, but if you have ever had to handle an SKS with 40 round fixed mag you know what I mean, could be a pain. I suppose it would be trial and error. Also there is the issue of the rivets internal to the mag body rubbing against mag follower, this may be remedied by dremelling out two divots in the follower to allow free movement over the rivet heads (since riveting the mag would allow for grinding down of old rivets, and replacing a damaged mag body with a new body, then re-riveting for permanent fixation). Also one could take out the mag catch spring and replace the mag release button with a nut of some sort, so the mag catch would be fixed, not spring loaded. There would have to be no doubt in the case of an audit that the mag was indeed incapable of being removed without gunsmithing - the whole point would be to be compliant with the letter of the law.
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 1:41:15 PM EDT
what about having a suppressor(silencer) permanently attached? would that be legal? since the barrel doesnt have threads 'available' to attach a flash hider?
Link Posted: 9/4/2003 4:27:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2003 4:36:27 PM EDT by _DR]
A true sound suppressor (silencer) is an NFA item, if I am not mistaken. That is a different law, I believe, and I havent researched that aspect. If it is an NFA item, you need to have the special SOT stamp like what you would have to have to own a fully automatic MG. I not positive on this though.
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