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Posted: 8/28/2003 3:01:07 PM EDT
I'm kinda of a newbie here but have been "lurking" in the background just reading and absorbing knowledge. I'm a BIG time pistol fan/shooter... especially the Wilson Combat 1911 series pistols I have.... which has given the the Black Gun bug after reading about the Wilsons versions of the AR-15 online. Les Baer guns look sweet too but are SO expensive even compared to a tricked out Wilson or customized Armalite/Bushmaster etc... amy thoughts or experience with either of these???? are they worth the extra $$$$ for the out-of-the-box customized stuff????? the pistols are expensive but VERY well made, very dependable and accurate. I'm ASSUMING these Wilson/Baer would also fall in line but just looking for opinions. I'm no gunsmith so making my own custom upper/lower combination isn't an option, and I don't know enough yet to have someone make me my "Dream Gun" thanks for listening (reading)
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 3:14:03 PM EDT
Welcome to the boards!! [beer] Wilson and Les Baer are both really expensive but from what I understand they are very good.
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 3:32:44 PM EDT
Les Baer makes a great AR-15. I have examined one up close and fired it at the range. It is a quality gun throughout with accuracy worthy of the name Les Baer. I have not seen the Wilson guns but I suspect they are of excellent quality as well. My advice to you is to start with a basic AR-15, a good quality Bushmaster rifle for example. Shoot it and become familiar with the rifle and take your time learning about all the different versions/accessories available for it. A lot of stuff out there is useful but alot of it is pricey, impractical stuff whose only real appeal is for gadget freaks or armchair commandos (but as Seinfeld would say: "Not that there is anything wrong with being a gadget freak or armchair commando"). Your shooting style and needs will determine what the best configuration will eventually be for you....take your time. If anything, the AR will continue to grow in popularity and versatility and many more versions/gadgets/accessories will come to the market. Finally, get yourself a good book like "The Competitive AR-15". It describes many products and includes interviews with many AR gunsmiths. The book is geared more to competitive shooting but it would be an excellent start for a newcomer to familaierize himself with the rifle.
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 4:44:20 PM EDT
The new issue of Guns magazine has a review of the LB Thunder Ranch rifle. The Oct Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement has a review of the Wilson. I think they are both overkill for the average shooter. You can get a rifle from most of the other companies that will likely suit your needs, for much less green.
Link Posted: 8/28/2003 5:01:32 PM EDT
Wilson and Les Bare is a superbly fitted rifle, but for the price, I would highly suggest buying a Colt, Armalite or Bushmaster. Those rifle will deliver equal performance to the more expensive rifle for what you need. Les Bare is for someone who has the money to spend and likes the name recognition that is associated with Les Bare or Wilson, but really, you getting is a tuned AR which will shoot marginally better in long distance then your ABC ar15s. If you really want to stand out at a range or match, you should look into having Wes @ [url]www.mstn.biz[/url] build a rifle for you for about the same price and will shoot just as well and look ten times better.
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 11:24:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2003 11:34:29 AM EDT by sfcret]
welcome, what part of ohio are you in? cleveland area here. well here is my take on those rifles......they maybe good, but it really isn't worth spending that much money just for the name associated with them, which when you boil it down, that is what you're paying for. are you going to be doing any serious competion shooting? if not, why spend a a small fortune for a AR,......RRA, BUSHMASTER, ARMALITE will do you just fine, and are quality rifles....COLT is also good, but you're going to paying more becasue of the name on it...those rifles, are no better or worse then the others I've mentioned, and don't warrant the higher price for them. BTW RRA makes a legal DCM AR, if I was going to buy a competion AR, RRA is the one I would go with. I own a EAGLE ARMS and a BUSHMASTER, and a RRA upper, and they are all great guns, and upper.....never a problem with any of them, and they are tack shooters. just stay away from hesse, or vulcan arms, as they now call themselves, and ASA...... don't even think of buying one......garbage.
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 1:15:14 PM EDT
thanks for all the input! I'm actually located in the Columbus area of Ohio. I hadn't actually planned to spend that kind of $$$$ for a Les Baer or Wilson if it really isn't worth the added cost. I have a couple of Wilson 1911 series pistols, and while also expensive comaprative to other 1911 series guns, they REALLY are a better gun than the cheaper alternatives. Their customer service is GREAT and they use the highest quality parts and are hand fitted. I'm just trying to gather as much info as possible about what's available before laying out any cold cash! Thanks also for the info on JUNK units as well. If worth the additional cost I'm not afraid to save up but hate to spend extra money for just a name when it doesn't do anything more than a lesser model. Wilson triggers are usually awesome at a 3-3.5# break. What range do most of the AR's (Armalite, Bushmaster ...etc.) usually come standard ???
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 1:31:02 PM EDT
You could save up and buy an expensive, exceptionally well made AR, with really great fit and finsish, and a lot of fuss. But, you will end up buying a less expensive well made AR with good fit and finish, and then fussing over it yourself. So, you may want to start out with a nice ABC,R AR so you can get aquanted while you save up for the really really nice one. It's like driving a buick while savin' up for the cadillac. It will also give you a chance to see what you really want in the rifle, which may not be the same thing you have in mind when you buy your first.
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 2:36:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2003 4:35:10 PM EDT by thedr13]
Hey JETWC, Welcome to the madness which is "AR15 FANTASYLAND!" The others that have already chimed in here are correct. Wilson and Les Baer are quality weapons but unless money is no object, they are too much for just starting out. The ones the others recommend are fine but let me chime in here... ("ding...ding")... and suggest another AR to consider. Go to the DPMS website and check them out as well. They make a quality AR15. I know because I own one and it will put a ten round group in a hole the size of a quarter at 50yds. Haven't been able to shoot it at longer distances yet. I bought it at the beginning of summer and I live in Phoenix and it is just too damn hot to enjoy shooting. Even in the early morning. Hell, we had a day in July that the temp. was 97 degrees as the low..... The cooler weather is coming and I'll see then. Anyway, welcome to the site...[beer] thedr
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 3:06:11 PM EDT
I bought a KNIGHT SR-15 M-4. It's also not cheep. I wanted some things already on the rifle so I wouldnt have to talk to a gunsmith or do work that I'm not confident to do. But I think half of the fun is adding the accesories and shooting the rifle after you put them on. Do what you want, just buy a rifle and join us.It is a hell of alot of fun.
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 1:23:30 AM EDT
Us guys in Ohio do like the black rifles don't we?[:D]
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 1:31:25 AM EDT
They are top of the line rifles, but expensive and as others already said the average shooter will not see an appreciable difference in performance over other medium priced rifles.
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 1:44:31 AM EDT
I agree with the rest. Stick with a Colt,Bushmaster or Armalite. As far as the Colt goes you can get the Colt of your choice for around $100 more than a Bushmaster or Amalite and sometimes not even that much. You will allways get at least that much and probably more when you sell the rifle. They keep their value the best and are allways in demand. You asked about the trigger pull and I believe they come from the factory with a 7-8 pound pull. Just like a 1911 pistol you can allways upgrade the trigger, luckily it's not near as expensive. Usually from $100-$200 will get you a excellent two stage trigger. Have fun with the new hobby. I bought my first Ar about 4 months ago and am allready working on my second. This time I am piecing together a lightweight model.
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 9:04:41 AM EDT
The AR-15 doesn't require the hand fitting that the 1911 does, the bolt to the barrel extension is one. There isn't a lot of black magic (pun intended) on the lower that you can't do. I have installed a JP trigger (like Wilson uses) and a Jewel (like Les uses) and that is it for the lower. I had Compass Lake Engineering http://www.compasslake.com/ build me a CMP/DCM upper with a stainless Kreiger barrel, free float tube and 1/4" sights for little less than 1K (about $800 with a Douglas), so the whole shabang went around $1400 and it will easily out shoot a Wilson and I doubt the Les can do anything that it can't. I feel like I sunk the money where it counts, the top end. On the other hand, the older I get, the less enamored I am with surrounding myself with a lot of low end. I rather have a few really great things. Bill
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