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Posted: 8/25/2003 1:28:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2003 1:28:54 PM EDT by 2wayguru]
A quick rundown before I ask the important question. I have a Colt AR15 A2 preban rifle. It was siezed property by the PD I used to be a cop for. The gun was taken from a felon that had modified it to be full auto. Since then the trial was over with and my former Chief was told he could dispose of it the way he sees fit. My former chief knew I wanted the gun because it was a pre ban and not because it was full auto. He then sent it to the local gun shop where the gun was put back to the stock configuration that it is right now. I purchased the gun from the gun shop that took it in from the PD. The question is now. Is it still legal for me to have it since it will accept M16 Parts and is it legal for me to have my local gunsmith plug the holes that were drilled to accept the auto sear and make it to where it will not accept M16 Parts? I do not care to have full auto capabilities. I just want to have my preban rifle that is legal for me to have and not get in trouble for having possesion of it. I was told by my gunsmith to fax a letter to ATF and explain what had happened to the gun prior to purchase and what my intentions are to rectify the lower to make sure it is leagal to have? Any input would be very helpful.. Thanks again
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 1:35:25 PM EDT
I am no expert on this subject, but I believe you have to have the M16 Bolt carrier and then have the M16 Fire Control group in it to even make it Full Auto. Make sure you don't have the above mentioned. Bushmaster gives an example in there catalog and also on there website .They show the differences in the semi parts and the Full Auto parts. WD
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 1:45:09 PM EDT
2way has it right tho. If the lower is drilled for, and will accept, the full auto sear, it doesn't matter if the full auto parts have been removed. The auto sear can be replaced in five minutes or less, and the other parts will drop right in. I think this may be a question for the ATF to answer, as much as I hate to send anybody there for anything. My hunch is that they're going to say, "once a machine gun, always a machine gun"; but that's all it is, a hunch.[:D]
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 1:49:54 PM EDT
Shamayim has it right, BATFE's official stance is, "once a machine gun always a machine gun." They will confiscate it so don't go that route. I'd just go to a quality gunsmith have them weld over the holes and then have it reparkerized to cover the work, should be ok then. Then again is it worth being wrong about? Steve L.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 2:04:11 PM EDT
They will take it even if it has been put back into regular configuration? If I have the holes plugged can I still get introuble for having it?
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 2:45:41 PM EDT
If the autosear holes are plugged by welding and refinishing the lower, the best answer is 'possibly'. It would be prudent to write the ATF tech branch a carefully worded letter, explaining its history and your intent to have the lower welded. Wait for a response before taking possession of the lower, since it is currently an unregistered machinegun. If ATF agrees, have it welded. If not, it will have to be destroyed. I suspect it will not be allowed by ATF. You said this rifle is currently posessed by a gunshop? Does this gunshop know that a lower drilled for an autosear is legally a machinegun, even if no full auto fire control parts are installed? I suggest asking the Chief to store the rifle at the PD until its legal status can be clarified in writing.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 2:49:53 PM EDT
The gun shop had alread sold it to me. I have it now. I am about to take it back to them. I do not want to get introuble for having it. I am going to see what legalities there are... Any more input would be helpful...
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 5:57:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2003 6:04:49 PM EDT by MADM16A1]
You're in possession of an illegal machinegun and will be charged with second degree felony and 10k fine if the ATF finds out, even if you didn't know. If your dealer accepts the gun back he'd be in the same boat (even if he is class 3), as the receiver was illegally manufactured. As seized property it should have never gone from the PD into private hands, as the only legal disposition for this receiver is destruction. Your dealer has already comitted a felony by selling you an illegally manufactured and unregistered machinegun, if the word gets out he will not only loose his license, but also go to jail. I am extremely surprised this happened. Personally I would torch the receiver asap into a blob. Your ex-chief had no idea of the consequences when the gun was passed on to you, and your dealer is ignorant of the law. Now that a possibility exists that a troll might read this post and request your isp, you want to shake that thing off like a hooker with aids.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 6:13:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2003 6:25:56 PM EDT by 2wayguru]
Thanks for the info. I have now returned the gun back to the dealer that I bought it from. I am glad I found out this info before it caused me some major problems. Thanks again everyone for the info.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 6:19:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2003 6:20:53 PM EDT by KY-Bob]
Originally Posted By GreenTalon: Shamayim has it right, BATFE's official stance is, "once a machine gun always a machine gun." They will confiscate it so don't go that route. I'd just go to a quality gunsmith have them weld over the holes and then have it reparkerized to cover the work, should be ok then. Then again is it worth being wrong about? Steve L.
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Small point here. How do you parkerize aluminum? I have never had any luck with it. I would ask the gun shop to give it back to the chief. He is (possibly) the only one who would not get arrested for having it. Bob
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 6:57:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GreenTalon: Shamayim has it right, BATFE's official stance is, "once a machine gun always a machine gun." They will confiscate it so don't go that route. I'd just go to a quality gunsmith have them weld over the holes and then have it reparkerized to cover the work, should be ok then. Then again is it worth being wrong about? Steve L.
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Maybe that rule doesnt apply if it was never papered.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:02:52 PM EDT
Keep the gun call colt and tell them the story maybe if you send them the lower they can manufacture a new one with the same serial # the way they have done for people whose rifles were damaged by them at the factory when sent back to be worked on,it wasnt originaly manufactured as a machine gun it was ilegaly converted so it is listed as a semi auto,call colt and see what they say if not maybe they can plug up the holes and weld them then refinish the lower for you.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:27:15 PM EDT
For those of you inquiring, the gun has now been picked up by the PD and will be destroyed. A fine firearm being destroyed due to some MORON messing with it! Once again thank you for your input it was greatly apreciated! The 2 Way Guru!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 9:07:25 PM EDT
"DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL"
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:24:00 PM EDT
The gun should have been kept in evidenced or destroyed. The PD sold an illegal machine gun. The FFL bought and possessed and illegal machine gun. Even if the auto-sear hole was welded up, the sides are still milled to M16 spec. I would run from it.
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 3:15:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2003 3:17:30 AM EDT by glklvr]
[B]Originally Posted By RenegadeX: Even if the auto-sear hole was welded up, the sides are still milled to M16 spec. [/B]
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How is this? He already said it was an altered semi-auto. What exactly is "milled to M16 spec"?
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 4:28:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By glklvr:
[B]Originally Posted By RenegadeX: Even if the auto-sear hole was welded up, the sides are still milled to M16 spec. [/B]
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How is this? He already said it was an altered semi-auto. What exactly is "milled to M16 spec"?
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The interior of the M16 is quite different from the AR15, there is a lot more space inside an M16 receiver in order to fit the sear. Metal would had to have been removed from the AR15 by milling the interior of the receiver and widen it up to match the M16. All AR15 manufacturers have always made the interior of the receiver much meatier in the back so a sear can not be fit by just the simple operation of drilling the pin hole. Model927: no manufacturer, dealer, or gunsmith would touch this receiver with a 10 foot pole, they would hang up the phone before you could finish saying "drilled receiver".
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 9:29:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2003 9:30:47 PM EDT by model927]
obviously a dealer did touch it with the provebial 10 foot pole because the PD transfered it to a dealer and he bought it through the same dealer and #2 weather a gunsmith would touch it or not would depend on how well you know the smith because the rifle was never manufactured as a full auto the serial# would list it as a semi auto,So if a smith welds the holes up and refinishes the receiver,its back to being what the serial# would reveal it to be,a semi auto AR15.The BATFs posistion is once manufactured as a full auto always one ,they dont say about an altered semi-auto altered back to be what it was originaly manufactured to be because the serial# would prove it,The only ones who would know about its origin is the officer and the police,I dont see the problem with altering it back to its original semi auto form.Any mil spec AR will take the fullauto parts minus the sear so if you weld it,finish it and put semiauto parts whats not right?
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 3:49:04 AM EDT
Well guys I went out today and bought a post ban Bushmaster. I will put my collapsable stock on it and flash hider on it once the sunset hits. I guess waiting a year is not all that bad. This way I dont have to go and spend a bunch of money and risk going through the crap I just went through just to get a good deal on a preban. Thanks again!
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 4:05:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GreenTalon: Shamayim has it right, BATFE's official stance is, "once a machine gun always a machine gun."
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I believe that only applies to a "registered" receiver.
Link Posted: 8/27/2003 4:59:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By model927: obviously a dealer did touch it with the provebial 10 foot pole because the PD transfered it to a dealer and he bought it through the same dealer and #2 weather a gunsmith would touch it or not would depend on how well you know the smith because the rifle was never manufactured as a full auto the serial# would list it as a semi auto,So if a smith welds the holes up and refinishes the receiver,its back to being what the serial# would reveal it to be,a semi auto AR15.The BATFs posistion is once manufactured as a full auto always one ,they dont say about an altered semi-auto altered back to be what it was originaly manufactured to be because the serial# would prove it,The only ones who would know about its origin is the officer and the police,I dont see the problem with altering it back to its original semi auto form.Any mil spec AR will take the fullauto parts minus the sear so if you weld it,finish it and put semiauto parts whats not right?
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A gun recovered from a felon would have its serial number recorded with the PD and probably reported to the ATF. As a dealer, would you want that serial number in your log, showing that you have sold an illegal machine gun? Would you own or even handle a rifle with a "hot" serial number? Also, just welding up the holes does not conceal the fact that the gun was converted, since you can't weld and hide the machining done to the interior of the receiver. No Colt AR15A2 receiver was made with the same interior dimensions as an M16. In addition, standard ATF x-ray tests will easily detect welded up pin holes. 2wayguru's story is shady at best and extremely unlikely.
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