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Posted: 8/25/2003 6:39:17 AM EDT
So, after going to the range this weekend with my new toy(), I'm wondering something. I've always been told the correct way to fire the M16/AR15 is to put your nose to the charging handle. I can't do that comfortably with most stocks but put an ACE ARFX-E (shorty) stock on my M4gry I just built.
So I'm curious after reading a few other threads...who shoots with their nose to the handle and how doesn't? If you don't, how do you make sure the cheek weld is the same each time?
Just curious. Thanks for looking!
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:00:33 AM EDT
I don't think I'd take anymore advice from whoever told you that one! Cheers!
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:14:25 AM EDT
With my EoTech I don't (cause you don't have to) and with my iron sight I do. I also don't with my magnified optics 'cause the way they are mounted you can't. Army taught me nose to charging handle and it's always worked for me.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:16:47 AM EDT
Yes, That is the correct way to use the iron sights.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:33:39 AM EDT
I'm an iron sights man. I generally start nose to charging handle, but sometimes I feel like I'm crowding the rear site a little, particularly when I'm using the large aperature. Since I am using the large ap most of the time, I tend to back off a little, maybe a half inch to avoid crowding. If I don't, I tend to rush the shot and I never really get the post centered in the ap.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 8:41:35 AM EDT
my dad was in the army and he says to put the tip of your nose to the charging handle. thats the way i shoot it.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 8:59:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Him: I don't think I'd take anymore advice from whoever told you that one! Cheers!
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I think you need to hang around here a little more then. Yes I use the nose to charging handle with the fine aperature, I never use the large one because it is simply TOO big and I always find myself putting shots 6" low with it, maybe I just need more practice with it. I may try backing off a bit when using the large.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 9:03:28 AM EDT
Yes, nose to the handle or as close as you can comfortably get.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 9:19:40 AM EDT
I think you need to hang around here a little more then. Yes I use the nose to charging handle with the fine aperature, I never use the large one because it is simply TOO big and I always find myself putting shots 6" low with it, maybe I just need more practice with it. I may try backing off a bit when using the large.
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isnt the small one used for close range and the big one used for long range? maybe you used the wrong one when shooting at the target?
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:09:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mudzilla:
I think you need to hang around here a little more then. Yes I use the nose to charging handle with the fine aperature, I never use the large one because it is simply TOO big and I always find myself putting shots 6" low with it, maybe I just need more practice with it. I may try backing off a bit when using the large.
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isnt the small one used for close range and the big one used for long range? maybe you used the wrong one when shooting at the target?
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The small apeture is for long range and more presice shooting. The big apeture allows you to see more area and will allow quicker, more accurate "point and shoot". "6 inches low" is still a hit, but you are right. More practice will clean that up. [:D]
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:18:11 AM EDT
I wasn't getting that close to the charging handle but I've found if I keep further back on the stock, I have the sights lined up quicker & hit my target better. I'm right handed but shot rifles left handed also. A friend of mine is a pretty big guy & has trouble w/the sights on some rifles. he has to put the stock on top of his shoulder. Kind of odd but he usually hits what he's aiming at. It was a RobArms M96 he was doing that on.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:19:03 AM EDT
lol thanks, i thought i had them mixed up but i wasnt for sure
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:24:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TWIRE: I'm an iron sights man. I generally start nose to charging handle, but sometimes I feel like I'm crowding the rear site a little, particularly when I'm using the large aperature.
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I agree. The US Army M16A1 and M16A2 Rifle Marksmanship manual FM 23-9 says that to maintain a good consistant stock wield, "soldiers should begin by trying to touch his nose close to the charging handle when assuming a firing position" This being said, I don't adhere to that because I find that the rear sight hazes out to much and I have trouble focusing. I think its more a reference point for those who don't shoot their weapons regularly and would be prone to loosing their habit for good shooting posture.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:32:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:57:00 AM EDT
Troy, Right there with ya! That's why I went with the Short ACE stock. I agree with the rear site hazing out too much with nose-to-charging-handle though. Next time out I'm going to either try the smaller aperature or see if I can move back an inch or so to see how that does. That might help with the red marks on my nose as well![rolleyes] So how do all of you who don't go nose-to-charging-handle get a repeatable cheek weld? I mean with the NTCH approach you are always in the same spot, otherwise you are going to be in a slightly different position each time, right? Am I just worrying something to death that is too minor to worry about? Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 10:59:35 AM EDT
Pretty much echoing Troy on this response. I replaced all of my A2 stocks with M16 stocks and this has allowed me to get my nose on the charging handle without feeling overstretched.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 11:16:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: 6'+, monkey-armed folks, and always have been. -Troy
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Hey! I resemble that remark! [;)] Just remember too, you are supposed to be focusing on the FRONT sight anyway. The rear should be very blurry for the most part.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 11:16:48 AM EDT
Yes nose to handle. It's a bit awkward, but I'm currently looking for an A1 to remedy this.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 12:05:23 PM EDT
Live and learn! Cheers!
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 12:13:20 PM EDT
like everyone else said. Nose to the handle. However, that practice is not fun when firing an AR-10.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 12:16:32 PM EDT
Right nostril in left side of charging handle. Works very well for me. The M16A2 stock was designed so a 6 foot marine could shoot at Camp Perry. A combat length stock is the AK. I personally shoot with M-4 fully collapsed. Put on a flak vest with LBV and you don't have much choice. They should put the M-4 stock on all M16s. I don't know why a collapsable stock is a no-no on an M16
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 12:38:48 PM EDT
I learn something everytime I visit this forum. You guys are so great! [hail2]
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 3:19:37 PM EDT
Hey y'all. I guess I'm one of those "Bubba goin huntin" types I see mentioned on here now and then but I've actually been involved in the ballistic sports for better than forty years now, both military and civilian. When I got my Bushmaster Shorty I had read that you were supposed to shoot with your nose to the handle. Well, I brought her up to my shoulder and not meaning any disrespect but that just felt damn silly. I shoot with my nose about an inch or two back and my cheek weld is, well, just my cheek weld. I figure I could tell if someone removed an 1/8" off my stock cause my cheek weld just wouldn't feel right. Can't really explain it any better than that, wish I could. Some fella mentioned that you should be looking at your front site so the hazing out of the rear sight shouldn't matter. That might be why I shoot the way I do, we were taught to focus on the target and bring the sights up to it. Keeping my head an inch or two back tends to sharpen the target through the rear sight. Can't teach an old dog new tricks, I guess, but I do all right. Y'all keep 'em straight up there.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 3:20:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: ...6'+, monkey-armed folks...
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Hay, you just gave me an idea (Dangerous isn't it) I should manufacture extended charging handles for those vertically challenged floks out there. What do ya think? [;)] Seriously, the only way I have ever shot was nose to handle, small aperture. Never really thought about it, just the way I was taught by ole Drill Sergeant Harke back in the day...
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 3:41:20 PM EDT
Yes, for accuracy it is important to predictably repeat the same stock weld. The nose to charging handle stock weld offers such repeatability, as well as an accurate sight picture.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 4:26:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2003 4:29:41 PM EDT by FMJunkie]
Originally posted by IronBalaclava: like everyone else said. Nose to the handle. However, that practice is not fun when firing an AR-10.
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Hey, who let the girl scout shooting team in here?!?!?! [;D] Just messin' with ya... I usually touch the handle and then back off about an inch on my AR10. Touching it usually helps to wake you up on a slow day though! But its nose to the handle on my 15s!
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 4:35:20 PM EDT
i keep my nose about 1/2" from the charging handle, but that's just me
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 4:49:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2003 4:50:36 PM EDT by AK_Mike]
Well I guess I go against the flow. I wasn't trained in the military where one doctrine must fit everyone. It's too uncomfortable for me to use nose to handle. I don't need my nose touching anything to maintain a repeated sight picture, whether it's the AR, bolt rifle, shotgun, or pistol, and I shoot just fine. All my scopes have generous eye relief, and while I get closer for the iron sights, I still don't get that close. There is no right way, there is only the correct way for yourself - whatever works best for you that actually works, just like there is no 'right' grip, or stock, or scope - just common disciplines and whatever works best for you. Just cause it's good for me, I don't make others do it, I let them choose for themselves, in all walks of life. YMMV! Edited to add: I am short, and so is my nose. Since everyone is built differently, it can be expected that one way doesn't fit all...
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 11:25:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AK_Mike: Edited to add: I am short, and so is my nose. Since everyone is built differently, it can be expected that one way doesn't fit all...
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If you look at the pictures out of Iraq, you'll see that, in order to get the nose to charge handle position, the stock rides high in the shoulder "pocket". Some of the guys with "shorter stature" actually rest the stock "outside" the pocket, against their bicep.
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 12:33:41 PM EDT
I shoot nose to charging handle on my SP1. On my other ARs, the stocks are far too long. I would like to replace all my A2 stocks with shorter stocks, now all I have to do it find the stocks.
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 1:05:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 1:37:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2003 1:42:40 PM EDT by Ronnies111]
Use what works for you, develop the method that fits your way of holding the weapon. Hitting your point of aim is all that matters, not the way other people do it. How many people that hold a pistol like Rob Leatham, Shoot as good as Rob Leatham ?
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 2:33:06 PM EDT
I shot in highpower competition for a long time with Garands and M1a rifles. I just started using a DCM Bushmaster in highpower and it was hard to get used to the idea of putting your nose on the charging handle. That sort of behavior would result in a broken nose with a Garand. You are encourged to do this because of the short sight radious of the AR compared to other rifles. From prone it works great but it the stock may be too long for some to do this correctly in the standing position.
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 7:17:54 PM EDT
GET YOUR NOSE ON THAT CHARGING HANDLE MAGGOT!
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 7:33:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Goat007: GET YOUR NOSE ON THAT CHARGING HANDLE MAGGOT!
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I like it!!! [:P]
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 9:06:29 PM EDT
I have never been comfortable using a nose-tocharging handle cheek weld, either. [b]NO[/b], it isn't because the stock's too long; I have an A1 stock, and I'm a 6-footer. I just use a cheekweld that's comfortable to me, and I use the same weld all the time. Before anybody tries to tell you that you HAVE to shove your nose into the charging handle to shoot accurately, that's BS. Just use a CONSISTANT cheek weld.
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 10:45:17 PM EDT
Eh Guys, Use your nose to index on the carry handle when you come into position. Keeping your nose on the carry handle could prove uncomfortable. " Once your body and arms are in position, worry about your head. You want your head to return to exactly the same spot each time you fire, otherwise, your sight picture is not going to be the same. A small change in the sight picture will have a dramatic effect on where your bullets will land. The first way to help maintain a reliable sight picture is to maintain a standard distance between the rear sight, and your eyes. There are a couple of ways to do this, but the easiest is this: when you bring your cheek up against the stock, roll your head in towards the stock, until the tip of your nose touches the corner of the cocking handle (T-bar.) If you do this every time that you bring your face back to the stock, you will have a standard, reliable measure for the distance between your rear sight, and your eyes. The one little thing extra to note is that your head should be as straight up and down as possible. This way you are looking straight, not out of the corner of your eye; this prevents eye strain." Note, you roll back so that your head is correctly aligned, you don't need to keep your nose touching....it's a reference point for positioning fore/aft on the stock. NavyShooter www.canadiangunnutz.com
Link Posted: 8/26/2003 11:22:55 PM EDT
...6'+, monkey-armed folks...
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I'm a 6'2" monkey-armed folk... and I prefer shorter stocks... collapsibles to fully extended -1 position, and A1-length fixed stocks. Oh yeah, I shoot nose to the charging handle too.
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