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Posted: 8/21/2003 4:31:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2003 4:35:10 PM EDT by 00_buckshot]
I’m currently attempting to make a clone of an XM-177E2. I have filed all the paper work with the BATF for an SBR and am just waiting for the long wait of their approval. In the mean time I want to round up all the parts I will need or at least know where to go to purchase them when the paper work comes back approved. I already know that this is going to be a challenging project but there will be the great reward of satisfaction at the end if I can pull it off. I have compiled a list of what I believe I will need and would like to get your guy’s help if possible. I already have the Colt preban lower so that will not be a problem. I plan to have it all finished in Norrell’s Colt Gray so that everything matches. The list is as follows:

-A1 upper receiver (not a problem)

-Original style telestock (not a problem)

-A1 pistol grip (already have)

-11.5” slim profile barrel (possible problem)

-Original 4-1/2” flash suppressor with notch for grenade launcher (possible problem)

First off can anyone tell me where I can find a new 11.5” slim profile barrel with a 1/7 or 1/9 twist rate? Everything I’ve seen is for the heavy barrel, which I do not want. Should I maybe purchase the heavy barrel and have someone slim it down to spec size for me or does anyone know where I can purchase one. It doesn’t have to be Colt but it does have to be chrome lined.

Second is the issue of the original FS. I cannot find one with the notch of the original. Bushmaster has a 4-1/2” FS, which is close, but it lacks the raised portion at the end where the threads are. Was the original all one piece or was the raised portion, which I speak of, mounted on the barrel instead. I figure I could buy this one from Bushmaster and send it to Kurt or someone and have him make and weld that raised portion to the end if need be. What I’m trying to do is buy everything the way I need it to be without having to send it off for modification if possible.

So there is my current project. Below are a couple of links which show the rifle I’m trying to re-create as well as a close up of the hard to find FS. If any of you guys can help me out I would be grateful. Also does anyone know where I could possibly get a book that has specs for the XM-177E2? I appreciate all the help.

www.softair.it/images/armilunghe/xm177e2.jpg

dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/walk/gen55/dgca/images/M4/11inch.JPG
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 4:36:50 PM EDT
IIRC the original style flash supressor was ruled a supressor by the ATF, thats why they are hard to find. But if you find 2 let me know, as Im doing the same project, but building on an Essential lower.
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 4:42:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2003 4:48:02 PM EDT by firefighter2904]
you guys need to talk to colt-653 aka brad, he set me up with an exact replica o the xm Brad Reikes E-mail Address jbreikes@yahoo.com [img]http://images3.fotki.com/v31/photos/2/23676/170464/JasonsARs-vi.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 6:42:00 PM EDT
psywar, you are correct , the ATF did classify the original FS as a suppressor, so Bucky , if yo are going that route you may want to start filing the other set of paperwork also...The bushy FS are not the exact profile, but they are not classified as noise suppressors..
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 7:26:10 PM EDT
WA Tom sells the Fake Moderator for $85.00 shipped. His address is: Luthier4@attbi.com He states that his moderators are cosmetically identical to the orginals. There are no baffles, so they are not an NFA item. Refer to the pic below to see his moderator on my M16. I'm very happy with it. I bought my 11.5 inch barrel from http://www.csmetall-werkes.com/ for $295.00. It is chrome lined and was cut down from an M16 20inch barrel. They advertised it as a new barrel, but I'd rate it as very good. It functions flawlessly in Full Auto with a regular carbine buffer. No bolt bounce ever! They only had a couple barrels left a few months ago, so they may be out of them. But, it's worth giving them a call to find out. The barrels are 1 in 12 twist. I'm happy with the barrel and their service. Good luck, Dan [img]http://home.ix.netcom.com/~brownhen/_uimages/XM177E2wduracoat50.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 8:52:38 PM EDT
Hmm, I need to get one of those!
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 9:39:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 00_buckshot: -A1 upper receiver (not a problem)
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Good for you. Finding one with fwd asst and no brass deflector hasn't been so easy for me. Other than watching the EE, any suggestions?
Originally Posted By 00_buckshot: -Original 4-1/2” flash suppressor with notch for grenade launcher (possible problem) Second is the issue of the original FS. I cannot find one with the notch of the original. Bushmaster has a 4-1/2” FS, which is close, but it lacks the raised portion at the end where the threads are. Was the original all one piece or was the raised portion, which I speak of, mounted on the barrel instead.
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I got a copy of the operators manual from TANGOCHASER. I'm not sure about the "notch" you're talking about but there are two parts: FSN: 1005-914-3902 part no. 62370 SUPPRESSOR, FLASH FSN: 1005-087-9001 part no. XM7128 WASHER, SUPPRESSOR Maybe you're thinking of the space at the rear of the FS where it's threaded before it gets to the washer? As for the barrel, I think you're best bet is to go with a 20" pencil 1/12 from the EE and have it cut down. Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 6:02:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BH1: Good for you. Finding one with fwd asst and no brass deflector hasn't been so easy for me. Other than watching the EE, any suggestions?
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I saw some M16 uppers in Shotgun news, no forward assist. That is always an option.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 6:20:07 AM EDT
I have one in EE it's the real deal M-16 upper.. if you wanted to copy theo original XM it would be the one I have that is new....Small pin Sear cut NO FA No BD. Same that was on all model 604's
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 8:35:21 AM EDT
The XM177 is a series. The first were the XM177E1 and the XM177 with the 10 inch barrel, the XM177 is the Air Force version without the forward assist. The XM177E2 has the 11.5 inch barrel, and again the Air Force version of the XM177E2 lacks the forward assist.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 10:24:53 AM EDT
I still have some XM177E2 manuals FS. $5.00 shipped. The manual has a great expolded diagram picture. The raised area may be the fat washer at the end of the flash suppressor?
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 10:35:21 AM EDT
I have two of my XM177E2 kits left if you or anyoine else is interested. I also have the original Vinyl Acetate(Rubber) covered stocks avialble .
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 11:11:12 AM EDT
Now, is the fat washer at the end of the FS actually attached to the barrel or the FS? In other words if you were to remove the FS would the washer stay with the barrel? On another note I'm now bouncing between whether or not I should clone a XM-177E2 or a early model Commando w/the A1 sights. Did the early model Commando use the A1 or A2 grip and how about the FS A1 or A2? Thanks for all your help guys.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 12:23:41 PM EDT
The exploded view in the manual I have shows it as just a fat washer. It is not attached to the FS or the barrel. All models used the A1 grip. The A2 FS wasn't available until the the early 80s. The A2s didn't come out until the early 80s. I was in Korea in 1985 when we switched from the M16A1 to the M16A2. I am planning on using the Bushmaster 4 1/2" FS to make a SBR XM177 clone with the 10" barrel. I have a no name 11.5" barrel I plan to cut down to 10". I would like to use the fake moderator from WA Tom but $20 bucks vs $85? The manual I have is dated June 1980. I had my supply SGT look up the stock numbers in the manual on the off chance the parts were still available. The stock numbering system changed at some point and the listed stock numbers are missing 2 numbers that are currently used and none of the parts show up in the supply system. If you are interested in one of my mauals, shoot me an IM and I will send you my mailing address. The exploded diagram will answer all your questions.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 2:30:29 PM EDT
The original XM177E2 has a washer at the end of the suppressor. That's what it is; a washer, not connected or attached to either the barrel or the suppressor. I've seen posts on the site indicating that the unit being sold as a non sound suppressing duplicate of the original is in fact one piece. Built my own copy of the XM suppressor over 20 years ago, using a dup of the same type Bushie is now selling, that I got from a now defunct outfit in Texas. The key though, is that it came with the special washer, so I simply turned down the rebated end of what they sent, put a proper diameter sleeve over it, and cut the takedown slots into it. The thing has been on my SP1, with the cutdown barrel ever since. Works just fine[:D] BTW, I've got a copy of the original Frankford Arsenal mimeographed manual for the piece, from 1966 (I think). Just moved a couple of weeks ago, we're still unpacking, and I haven't found it yet. When I do, i'll post, and anyone who wants a copy can have one for what it costs to Xerox and mail it. Couple of bucks , I guess.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 3:31:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2003 8:49:30 PM EDT by 00_buckshot]
Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER: All models used the A1 grip. The A2 FS wasn't available until the the early 80s. The A2s didn't come out until the early 80s. I was in Korea in 1985 when we switched from the M16A1 to the M16A2.
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I think you are confusing the Commando that was introduced in the early to mid 80's with the XM-177 that was introduced in the mid to late 60's. People often misrefer to the XM-177 as the Commando. The Commando has an 11.5" barrel with the birdcage FS but I'm not sure if the first ones had A1 or A2's? Same for the pistol grip. Were the early Commandos A1 or A2 grips. I know the early ones had the A1 sights but the other stuff is still a mystery to me. I'm drawn between which one I want to try and reproduce. Thanks for the help.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 6:00:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2003 6:02:00 PM EDT by Dan0341]
Now, is the fat washer at the end of the FS actually attached to the barrel or the FS? In other words if you were to remove the FS would the washer stay with the barrel?
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WA Tom's fake moderator is made so the fat washer is a completely separate piece. You can attach the fake moderator to the barrel with or without the fat washer. Here's a pic of the real deal: [img]http://home.ix.netcom.com/~brownhen/_uimages/coltcommandotwopics.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 6:13:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2003 6:16:19 PM EDT by Mb121]
Originally Posted By 00_buckshot:
Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER: All models used the A1 grip. The A2 FS wasn't available until the the early 80s. The A2s didn't come out until the early 80s. I was in Korea in 1985 when we switched from the M16A1 to the M16A2.
I think you are confusing the Commando that was introduced in the early to mid 80's with the XM-177 that was introduced in the mid to late 60's. People often misrefer to the XM-177 as the Commando. The Commando has an 11.5" barrel with the birdcage FS but I'm not sure if the first ones had A1 or A2's? Same for the pistol grip. Were the early Commandos A1 or A2 grips. I know the early ones had the A1 sights but the other stuff is still a mystery to me. I'm drawn between which one I want to try and reproduce. Thanks for the help.
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Buckshot, the Commando is the XM177 series. The whole name to the XM177 series, is the Colt CAR15 Commando model Submachine Gun, XM177 is only a military designation. With the member above you can see that it is marked Commando. The XM177 and the XM177E1 had 10 inch barrels, the XM177E2 had a 11.5 inch barrel.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 6:30:32 PM EDT
Just in case any of you want it, I have a surplus A1 type upper, small hole, no forward assist or deflector, stripped, available for anyone who wants it. It has been re-anodized and re-dyed and looks almost new. Includes sight assembly. No reasonable offer will be refused. Photos available on request. PM me with your email address and I'll send them. I'm not selling this to make money, I'm offering it because it's the right item to work with if you want an A1 slab sided upper in good condition and I have no further need of it. Let it go to a good use. CJ
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 7:40:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2003 7:41:26 PM EDT by Derek45]
Barrel... You could get a 16" Bushmaster lightwieght barrel and have it cut down, threaded and crowned. here's mine: [img]http://www.hunt101.com/img/049992.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 8:53:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mb121: Buckshot, the Commando is the XM177 series. The whole name to the XM177 series, is the Colt CAR15 Commando model Submachine Gun, XM177 is only a military designation. With the member above you can see that it is marked Commando. The XM177 and the XM177E1 had 10 inch barrels, the XM177E2 had a 11.5 inch barrel.
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Okay so what is the military designation for the Commando model that appeared in the early 80's with the birdcage flash suppressor? Does it even have one? I want to make mine look similiar to the early issued ones given to the IDF. I wish there was a book that I knew of that explained everything to me. Derek45, I'm thinking of doing exactly what you said. I still want the 1/9 twist so I can shoot the heavier bullets.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 9:04:33 PM EDT
I was working on two of these for Vietnam re-enacting. My interests have changed so they are just sitting in the gun locker. For a Colt Model 607 (orig CAR15 with the collapsing solid stock) copy, I got a XM16, non-forward assist upper, LW carbine barrel cut back to 10.5 and rethreaded. I have an old Bushmaster XM177 moderator with the birdcage turned off the end. I have an original Colt hard-chrome, non-FA bolt group for it. I was going to get the triangular-shaped, carbine handguards for it before I got sidetracked on something else. For a Colt Model 629 (XM177E2), I got an original Colt M16A1 upper, bolt carrier, period Colt carbine handguards, Old Sarge pencil front, heavy under the guards 11.5" barrel. I have an original bring-back moderator which has had the internal baffles removed with a boring bar. It has the original step washer, too. If anyone is interested in the above, I'd consider sale or trade items, with the exception of the 2nd bolt carrier group which I use in my LEO carbine.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 10:19:37 PM EDT
00_buckshot, try this link. I think it may help you with some of those questions on model numbers and what they were equiped with. [url]http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/variants/[/url] Dan0341, from that link the lower in your pics matches the description and wording of the Colt model 609 (XM177E1 - Army version) stoner63a - I'll mail or IM you with some questions about your parts.
Link Posted: 8/23/2003 3:41:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2003 3:44:07 AM EDT by TANGOCHASER]
I would think that since the M16s were transitioning in the military around the early to mid 80's that any Commando models made during that time period could possibly have either an A1 or A2 FS. There are some pictures of an 11.5" barreled M16 on page 747 ot the book Small Arms Of The World and it looks like an A1 FS as you can see slots on the unser side. 00_Buckshot, the manuals I have FS are dated 1980 and are for the XM177E2. That tells me they were still in the Army inventory as of 1980. There may not have been new ones produced in 1980 but they were still being used by the Army. The only difference between the Commando and the XM177E2 as shown in the book I mentioned above is a different FS. They both have all the A2 raised fence features and forward assist alnog with the A1 grip.
Link Posted: 8/23/2003 7:46:13 AM EDT
Here's some more info: For detailed diagrams on some XM177 series rifles click on [url]http://www.sawlesales.com/[/url] Then click on "artwork" on the left column of the page. Click on [url]http://feistyrooster.com/XM177/index.html[/url] to see a webpage devoted to the XM177 family. Scroll down and you'll see other webpages focusing on the CAR15 and XM177 rifles. Dan
Link Posted: 8/24/2003 8:45:41 PM EDT
Buckshot, A friend of mine may have at least a partial solution. He has a like new A1 upper with a skinny 11.5" barrel. It has the long flash suppressor permanently fixed, but I'm sure it could be removed. Want me to check with him on availability?
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:02:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By firefighter2904: you guys need to talk to colt-653 aka brad, he set me up with an exact replica o the xm Brad Reikes E-mail Address jbreikes@yahoo.com [url]http://images3.fotki.com/v31/photos/2/23676/170464/JasonsARs-vi.jpg[/url]
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Yep, one more vote for Colt-653. I had to put in a stiffer extractor spring and shim (it wouldn't extract correctly), but I bet once I break it in it'll run just fine. I wound up buying a slightly longer flash hider and permanently attaching it, in the interests of legality (NY has no SBR laws)..No photos of it yet, unfortunatly. I put it on an old slabside Colt SP1 Carbine lower. I'd love to move it to an A1 or even A2 lower, but I don't have a spare one of those around..
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:15:48 AM EDT
What's the difference between an A1 lower and an A2 lower?
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:24:19 AM EDT
If I remember right, an A2 has more reinforcements than an A1..an A1 doesn't have a full mag release fence either I don't think. I could be wrong tho..and I can't find a detailed photo of a true M16A1 to save my life.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 7:44:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2003 8:24:28 AM EDT by Derek45]
The A2 lower is a bit thicker around the front take-down pin and in back near the buttstock. Both M16A1 and A2 had the "fence" around the mag release. M16A1: [img]http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/walk/gen55/dgca/images/M16A1/rightside.JPG[/img] A2, note thicker area by take down pins: [img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/lowers/Images/9349102-s.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 8:02:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Derek45: The A2 lower is a bit thicker around the front take-down pin and in back near the buttstock. Both M16A1 and A2 had the "fence" around the mag release.
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Thanks! Guess I was looking at photos of M16/M16E1's then, and not A1's. (they only had a reinforcement just under the ejection port, and no fence)
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