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Posted: 8/17/2003 6:28:20 AM EDT
I have a Colt SP-1 carbine that I purchased recently and I have a question concerning the fire control group. Mine for some reason has the semi-auto selector and hammer but the full auto trigger and disconnector in it. The hammer has a "C" on it. Did Colt used to assemble their rifles this way? The rifle does not have the original 1X12 barrel but a Colt 1X9 lightweight barrel in it and other than that it seems unmodified. Also can anyone give me the value of an original Colt 3X20 scope? It came with the rifle. Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 6:59:01 AM EDT
I think someone replaced some fire control parts in it. Also, the scope thing is worth bout $150-$400, depending on its condition and the buyer.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:18:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jimtash9: I have a Colt SP-1 carbine that I purchased recently and I have a question concerning the fire control group. Mine for some reason has the semi-auto selector and hammer but the full auto trigger and disconnector in it. The hammer has a "C" on it. Did Colt used to assemble their rifles this way? The rifle does not have the original 1X12 barrel but a Colt 1X9 lightweight barrel in it and other than that it seems unmodified. Also can anyone give me the value of an original Colt 3X20 scope? It came with the rifle. Thanks.
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No way, someone put the FA parts in, ditch them now. Check the bolt carrier too.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:31:46 AM EDT
Im not a expert on Laws but on the Bushmaster site it is posted that if you have ANY full auto part(FCG) in your rifle according to BATF your illegal. Please replace the part as soon as you can. FCG don't cost that much.And I do believe there was some parts that may have left the factory in peoples rifles by mistake maybe.Be safe rather than sorry. Bushmaster has a diagram of what FullAuto parts look like and what Semi parts look like. Its easy to tell the difference when you see the pic. Cheers WarDawg
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 7:43:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WarDawg: Im not a expert on Laws but on the Bushmaster site it is posted that if you have ANY full auto part(FCG) in your rifle according to BATF your illegal. Please replace the part as soon as you can. FCG don't cost that much.And I do believe there was some parts that may have left the factory in peoples rifles by mistake maybe.Be safe rather than sorry. Bushmaster has a diagram of what FullAuto parts look like and what Semi parts look like. Its easy to tell the difference when you see the pic. Cheers WarDawg
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Bushmaster is incorrect. Do a search, it's been beaten to death. A machinegun is defined as any weapon that fires more than one shot per pull of the trigger. Also, a machinegun can be a receiver drilled for an auto sear, or a DIAS/LL. Bushmaster says that to cover their own asses. From a legal perspective, IF the weapon only fires one shot per pull of the trigger, you are in the clear. Many would get rid of the M16 parts to be safe, but if it only fuctions in semi-auto, you are not legally required to do so.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:12:35 AM EDT
If only the hammer and disconnector are full auto, and you want to be on the safe side vis a vis the law, you don't need to replace either part. Just modify them to be semi auto only. On the hammer, simply grind off the full auto engagment tip at the top rear, and on the disconnector, cut or grind off the rear tail (that's all Colt did to make the semi auto pieces in the first place). You now have two semi auto only pieces, and don't have to worry about whether or not Bushmaster was right[:D]
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:14:38 AM EDT
I believe you are incorrect NAM. In an article in the January 2003 issue of the Shotgun News called "Don't let ignorance turn you into a felon", it talks about being in possession of an AR15 with any M16 fire controll parts (hammers,disconnectors,safties,triggers)is considered a felony by BATF. Now I am no expert, but I would deffinatly check it out with someone who is.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:15:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shamayim: If only the hammer and disconnector are full auto, and you want to be on the safe side vis a vis the law, you don't need to replace either part. Just modify them to be semi auto only. On the hammer, simply grind off the full auto engagment tip at the top rear, and on the disconnector, cut or grind off the rear tail (that's all Colt did to make the semi auto pieces in the first place). You now have two semi auto only pieces, and don't have to worry about whether or not Bushmaster was right[:D]
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You got is bass-ackwards. He's got an M16 disconnector and trigger. AR15 hammer and selector.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:21:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By warhorse: I believe you are incorrect NAM. In an article in the January 2003 issue of the Shotgun News called "Don't let ignorance turn you into a felon", it talks about being in possession of an AR15 with any M16 fire controll parts (hammers,disconnectors,safties,triggers)is considered a felony by BATF. Now I am no expert, but I would deffinatly check it out with someone who is.
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Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:26:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2003 8:27:23 AM EDT by NAM]
Since when does the BATF make laws? The law is very clear. If your rifle fires more than one shot pre pull of trigger, you are in violation fo the law. Read. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=147440&w=searchPop[/url] Read from page 1 to the last page.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:48:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2003 8:56:47 AM EDT by warhorse]
Originally Posted By NAM: Since when does the BATF make laws? Its true they dont make the laws but they can surly make your life a living hell if they think your breaking it. This is how the Shotgun News article pertaining to ARs reads word for word. "Another common pitfall can trap owners of AR-15 semi-auto rifles. During the 1980s, many small operators made semi-auto AR-15 clones using cheap, readily available, M16 hammers,disconnectors, safties and triggers. these four M16 parts will fit an otherwise unmodified semi-auto AR-15. Without the auto sear however, the AR-15 will not normally fire full auto. With very sensitive primers however, "slam fires" can be produced. This, to the BATF, makes such an AR-15 into an un-registered machine gun. Any one who unknowingly owns one of these AR-15 clones is, according to the BATF, in felonious possession of an unregistered machine gun."
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:55:47 AM EDT
I bought my SP-1 in May 1969 - manufactured in '68. I still have it. 1. It came with a full-auto bolt carrier, but with semi-auto parts otherwise (I've replaced it since then with semi-auto). 2. It came with a standard 20" 1-12 barrel. I don't think Colt came out with a faster twist until years later. Therefore I think your full-auto parts were put in by someone later on. I'm also convinced that your barrel is a replacement.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 8:57:16 AM EDT
the ATF tries to pull all kinds of stuff. They will try anything. True, the best way to avoid any harassment is to stay away form M16 parts. The point i was trying to make, is that M16 parts are legal, IF your rifle only fires one shot per pull of the trigger. We all know that jsut because the law says something is legal doesn't mean you won't be prosecuted for it. NFA, AWB, 86 ban, all are illegal. But that doesnt' seem to bother the powers that be.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 9:03:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By shamayim: If only the hammer and disconnector are full auto, and you want to be on the safe side vis a vis the law, you don't need to replace either part. Just modify them to be semi auto only. On the hammer, simply grind off the full auto engagment tip at the top rear, and on the disconnector, cut or grind off the rear tail (that's all Colt did to make the semi auto pieces in the first place). You now have two semi auto only pieces, and don't have to worry about whether or not Bushmaster was right[:D]
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You got is bass-ackwards. He's got an M16 disconnector and trigger. AR15 hammer and selector.
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Still no problem[:D] Instructions for the disconnector are valid. For the trigger, either forget about the slot at the rear, or drop a weld bead on it (insulate the front half so as not to effect the hardening); if you really think ATF is going to grab you at the range, strip your rifle, and look at the ass end of your trigger. Put the hammer thing in my first post due to a Sunday morning brain lapse. ALL my hammers are modified M16 jobs; because I can't stand the bloody slotted version, Apparently both Colt and DPMS started thinking the same way lately, since their new production pieces are non slotted in front M16 types, w/the rear tip missing[:D]
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 10:21:05 AM EDT
Cool I am glad I know!! I have been using M-16 BCs for years . I like the waay the gun operates with them. I feel they are less prone to problems.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 12:10:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2003 12:19:04 PM EDT by thrushagent]
Originally Posted By Tashonka1: I bought my SP-1 in May 1969 - manufactured in '68. I still have it. 1. It came with a full-auto bolt carrier, but with semi-auto parts otherwise (I've replaced it since then with semi-auto).
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TELL me that's all you've ever changed on it. Post a pic some time if you can.[:P]
2. It came with a standard 20" 1-12 barrel. I don't think Colt came out with a faster twist until years later.
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That is correct. There is a story I once heard, no telling how true it is so take it for what it's worth: in the 1970s a man went into Houston's largest sporting goods store to buy an AR-15. They had gobs of them in stock and rather than sell him the one on display they just picked one out of the back and sold it to him still in the (unopened) box. He went straight to the range without opening it till he arrived on the firing line and when he did open it, what do you think he had? You guessed it! Instead of the SP1 he thought he was getting he had a real live M16A1. Yikes! He immediately took it back to the store and demanded an exchange, of course. Red faces all around that day, I guess.[:D]
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 4:06:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2003 4:07:17 PM EDT by RobarSR60]
Jim... Everybody has an opinion, and they all think it's factual. This is what I'll say...[b]If you feel uncomfortable with the fire-control parts in your gun, get rid of them.[/b] The fact is, if they are FA pieces, even if they [b]don't[/b] let your gun cycle on full auto, you're still in violation of the law. Possession of them is illegal, unless you have a class 3 gun, [b]period[/b]. IIWY, get rid of them, and get some new ones. They're not that expensive, and you'll know for sure that you're in compliance.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 4:19:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RobarSR60: Jim... The fact is, if they are FA pieces, even if they [b]don't[/b] let your gun cycle on full auto, you're still in violation of the law. Possession of them is illegal, unless you have a class 3 gun, [b]period[/b].
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I don't meant to be argumentative, but please show me where it says that. I've read the rules many times, and doen lots of research. The law is [b]VERY[/b] clear: [b] If the weapon fires more than one shot per operation of of the trigger, it is illegal. Also, if you have all the parts required to convert your weapon ,you may be found in "constructive intent". [/b] Having an M16 hammer or carrier, or even trigger is pefectly legal, if you stick by those exact words of the law.
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 4:23:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/17/2003 4:53:19 PM EDT by sfcret]
Originally Posted By NAM: The law is very clear. If your rifle fires more than one shot pre pull of trigger, you are in violation fo the law. Read. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=147440&w=searchPop[/url] Read from page 1 to the last page.
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I'll give you that, fires more then 1 round with one trigger pull it's a machinegun......but just owning a machinegun reciver is also illegal, even if it's cut in half ......it doesn't even have to be assembled into a rifle. as for the M16 parts in a AR.....a general "concenus" or a few people saying it's OK to install M16 trigger group in a AR, is not my idea of sound legal advice....too many shit house lawyers think they know every single gun law there ever was. in short, I would not take the advice of someone on a board saying it's OK to install it. not when there is already a memo by the ATF firearms branch "We would advise any person who possesses an AR-15 rifle not to possess M-16 fire control component" [url]http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter52.txt[/url] then there is this..... "[i]any[/i] part designed and intended solely and exclusively,[i] or [/i]combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. [url]http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_bradley.txt[/url] but do what you want, the last person I would take any legal advice from is some guy on a gun board who says it's OK. I don't think that a 6 page dissusion on a gun board will be good evidence in a trial
Link Posted: 8/17/2003 4:50:47 PM EDT
Your points have been metioned, and i agree.... i woudl avoid using M16 parts. However, the ATF, per your post, ADVISES against it. They don't say it is illegal because it's not. [b] "In addition, the definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person" [/b] This part is accurate. IF you have ALL the necessary parts, including a sear, you are going to get busted for constructive intent. I wouldn't take legal advice from anyone on the board here either. Nor would i take legal advice form a manufacturer. I WILL take advice from the exact context of the law.
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