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Posted: 8/10/2003 5:27:47 AM EDT
Well my Cousin, E-4 652nd attached to 101st got to come home on emergency leave for two weeks. I had some time to pick my cousins brain about the performance of the M-16 in Iraq (and see some pictures they don't show you on MSNBC, nothing classified but it's nice to see what our boys did to the Commie tanks :). Here is what I learned. Forget about the BS you have heard about CLP this, CLP that. Truth is and I can't speak for the entire military, thay aren't using CLP at all. They are cleaning the rilfes with solvent, sometimes soap and water, blowing them dry with air compressors and putting them together dry. Yeah, no lube, I was skeptical too but he wouldn't lie. Also, those of you who know what the 652nd is, I will tell ya, not many engineers are driving cranes these days over there if you know what I mean. He says the rifles run ok with no lube at all, which if they are broken in, I can see that as possible. Obviously the Army doesn't care about wear. The major complaint from the boys, as some of you may guess, JAMS. Now, don't shoot the messenger, just reporting the news. They are also, much like Vietnam only loading 27-28 rounds into the magazines I asked about the use of AK's by our guys over there and he told me oh no, no, no, that's against the Geneva Convetion, nobody over there is using picked up AK's, uh-uh no way. So anyway, lots of sand and I have been reading here about you know, the girl that got the Bronze Star for getting in a car accident and their rifles that jammed. Semms like CLP is a no no and the SAW is the weapon of choice. No doubt, I'd want one too. Many, Many M-14's out there too.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 8:34:37 AM EDT
Interesting read and thanks !!
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 8:43:03 AM EDT
Thanks for taking the time to post this. Idle thought, but could the absence of any lubricant have anything to do with these malfunctions?
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 8:51:23 AM EDT
Probably not in this case. The clearances in an M16 are NOT on the level of the clearances in your car's engine. Your engine will die without lubrication, your M16 will just get a little more wear and tear on the running surfaces. Running the rifles dry means that there is nothing wet and sticky in them to attract sand and dust or hold it there. Besides, the receivers on all mil-spec M16's have a baked on dry lubricating film that works pretty well. I wouldn't hesitate to run my rifle dry in sandy or dusty conditions. It might not feel quite so silky smooth when working the action by hand, but I'm sure it would run just fine. CJ
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 9:22:21 AM EDT
I've heard and read so many different things that I believe it's become a unit choice and/or personal one. Heard CLP, militec, TW-, etc. etc. and now none at all! To each his own I would guess. THere are pics of folks using AK's for sure.......or at least holding them[naughty]
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 10:56:35 AM EDT
patriot. Are they having JAMS or MALFUNCTIONS? Two different beasts, a malfunction can be cleared with immediate action drills, a jam needs tools or the skills of an armorer. I am very interested in knowing if they had actual jams, or just malfunctions. If you get the chance, please float that one by your cousin. Also, how many malfunctions, and after how much firing? One or two malfunctions after a few magazines is one thing, but several in your first mag would be another. Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 11:21:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2003 11:21:35 AM EDT by BigD]
Originally Posted By patriot73: I asked about the use of AK's by our guys over there and he told me oh no, no, no, that's against the Geneva Convetion, nobody over there is using picked up AK's, uh-uh no way.
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Uhh...what? That violates the Geneva Convention how? [BS]
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 12:24:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2003 12:24:33 PM EDT by Zardoz]
Originally Posted By BigD:
Originally Posted By patriot73: I asked about the use of AK's by our guys over there and he told me oh no, no, no, that's against the Geneva Convetion, nobody over there is using picked up AK's, uh-uh no way.
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Uhh...what? That violates the Geneva Convention how? [BS]
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It doesn't. That's probably just something the higher-ups told the troops to keep them from developing "sticky fingers".
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 3:02:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zardoz:
Originally Posted By BigD:
Originally Posted By patriot73: I asked about the use of AK's by our guys over there and he told me oh no, no, no, that's against the Geneva Convetion, nobody over there is using picked up AK's, uh-uh no way.
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Uhh...what? That violates the Geneva Convention how? [BS]
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It doesn't. That's probably just something the higher-ups told the troops to keep them from developing "sticky fingers".
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The Geneva convention thing is sarcastic, didn't mean it literally. Truth is from what I have been told they are being used quite a bit. Not because they are better in anyway but because there is ammo freaking everywhere and from what he said, "they're just cool." When I say Jams what I am referring to is the old two rounds trying to go for the chamber at once. We have all had that happen but if you are getting shot it, I could see how that would be more annoying. And yes, this occurs after maybe 120 rounds, which makes sense. They clean 3 times per day. The only other complaint are the mag followers, even the green ones. he first day there he was sitting on a John Deere something or another and says her hears...ping, ping, ping, ping. He told me he was like what the hell was that? "Oh shit, I'm being shot at." This is a guy that did Gulf one, Balakans and was on the DMZ in Korea for a while, he has some time. The M-16 seems to be doing a very good job when run dry. When I brought up the CLP debate and if it was being used there he gave me a look like I was nuts. I actually saw the tub they use to clean their weapons. Anyway, thought I'd share and yes once again he said it is VERY common to see M-14's, he said they are everywhere which I thought was pretty interesting. Good news, lots of pictures of guys trying to drink beer through gas masks and the other usual stuff. They look ok. When asked what other weapon he'd have if he could, he said, and sorry fellas (ducking) the M-14.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 4:47:32 PM EDT
I remember doing the same thing when I was in the gulf. Weapon Maint. Which was continuous, consisted of breaking down our A2's "shotgun" style and using a dry rag to wipe out any sand and dust in them, and run a patch or two through the bore dry. We always kept a magazine in the Mag Well and something over the muzzle to keep out the dust. My A2 worked pretty well this way. I was able to get all 6 mags empty in one instance with only a couple of stoppages. Nothing a little "Tap" "Rack" "Bang!" didn't clear up.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 5:08:31 PM EDT
clean three times a day? They must be shooting a ton of rounds... or maybe they should be using CLP? Interesting indeed.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 5:12:16 PM EDT
The on-going problem of the US Military NOT rotating out worn magazines.... I have no doubt there are guys running around over there with mags in their web gear that have dented and cracked feed lips.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 6:33:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By XenaduKhan: or maybe they should be using CLP? Interesting indeed.
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Or maybe you really don't understand the environment that exists over there. They have to break them open 3 times a day to wipe out all the dust that gets into the action. If there was any oil/CLP in there, that dust would stick to it and it would all be a very abrasive goop that would need a lot of time dunked in a tank of solvent and a lot of scrubbing to get out. By running them dry they can simply wipe the dust out with a rag or a brush and keep going.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 6:46:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2003 6:57:00 PM EDT by ChrisLe]
Originally Posted By Hoplophile: Or maybe you really don't understand the environment that exists over there. They have to break them open 3 times a day to wipe out all the dust that gets into the action. If there was any oil/CLP in there, that dust would stick to it and it would all be a very abrasive goop that would need a lot of time dunked in a tank of solvent and a lot of scrubbing to get out. By running them dry they can simply wipe the dust out with a rag or a brush and keep going.
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Hoplophile, You hit the nail right on the head. We broke our weapons down at least twice a day to clean out the sand that accumulated in them. CLP was a big no-no as it attracted sand like you wouldn't believe. The 1" paint brushes those of us 'in the know' brought over were our saving grace as they did a great job in clearing out the sand. As far as the effectiveness of the M16/5.56 round, I treated enough Iraqi soldiers to know that the round was extremely effective in stopping them. I saw multiple KIA's with single GSW's to the chest/torso/center mass region. Those that were WIA were incapacitated beyond the ability to continue fighting after sustaining just a single GSW from the M-16. Ranges for the KIA's/WIA ranged from 5 meters to as far as 250 meters (that I personally witnessed). The round performed exceptionally well from my experience.... As a side note, the 'sand' in Iraq is not the sand you and I would encounter on the beach. Its consistency is more like talcum powder and penetrates into every nook and cranny of the M16 and M9...
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 6:57:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By XenaduKhan: clean three times a day? They must be shooting a ton of rounds... or maybe they should be using CLP? Interesting indeed.
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If the 652nd is cleaning three times a day, you bet they'r shooting. What's cooler is the bad guys that come in with the mortars, they run real fast because Mr. satellite knows just where they are and in come the Apaches. He swears when he get's home though, he is getting a Bushy.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 6:59:38 PM EDT
I did find it interesting how many M14's were out there. He is about 2 clicks from a Brit camp ad sometimes they go over there to trade stuff and he said even some Brits have L1Al's and many M-16's.
Link Posted: 8/10/2003 7:24:42 PM EDT
yeah must be some really fine dust. i can't imagine how hard it must be. here's a thought... couldn't one use compressed air to get all that dust out? seems like a fairly cheap and easy fix. Wonder if its ever been tried? the stuff we use to clean out computers is just plain R-134a in a can. Can also be turned upside down to freeze insects. Don't ask me how I know.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 8:21:37 AM EDT
I would be interested to know if the desire for the M14 over the M16 derivatives is due to functioning or ballistics. Perhaps a combination of both? Karl
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 8:36:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2003 8:37:50 AM EDT by Ekie]
Seems to me that patriot73 is fishing to bring up the M14. Well, I can oblige. The recent conflict has indeed made a come back for the M14: [IMG]http://m14.freeservers.com/images/m14_iraq.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://m14.freeservers.com/images/1apr0382nd4.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://m14.freeservers.com/images/1apr0382nd6.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/2297M14_in_Ghan-med.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/2297mystery.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/2297afghanm14.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/2297fc24f666.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/dac7c584.jpg[/IMG] Also again popular in sniper role: [IMG]http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/ab090413.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/64fe6c3f.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/60f10bcb.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.gunsnet.net/album/data/500/2297ussf3434.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/f3f86882.jpg[/IMG] Have not found a picture of one of these in service yet: [IMG]http://www.troyind.com/images/SOPMOD%20cqb.jpg[/IMG]
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 9:00:28 AM EDT
I hears most of the 82cnd Airborne division deployed with the M14,is this true?if so it would explain why you dont see a lot of pictures of troopers carrying the rifle,Maybe the brass dosent want to convey the Idea that our armed forces need a variety of weapons to choose from,Im a die hard AR guy but its good to see the rifle still in service after 46 years of use.Seals carried them in the first gulf war and still do here and there,and back in the first gulf war the marine expeditionary force marines requested them but the request was derailed.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 9:05:06 AM EDT
A close friend of mine just got back from Iraq. He is assigned to the 82nd HQ. His weapon was the SAW and he did not mention any M14. He didn't really know what the forward troops were issued (assuming M4). Karl
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 11:04:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 10:05:55 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]
Personal weapons: You will find a mix of -- M16A2's (majority of troops carry this weapon) M4's (with carry handle, majority are these) M4's (flat tops. More out there all the time) M16A1's (seen a couple in pics) M-14's (popping up mostly in specops or frontline units) M249's M60's (seen a couple of these in pics too) 1911 pistols M9's MP5's (Mostly of the Navy config, but several SD's as well) Barret .50's Remington 700s McMillan .50's (a few) The M-14's are being used as a standard MBR, and as a sniper rifle as the pics above show. That new M-14 stock is uber-snazzy, aint it? I sorta dig it.... Those who have mentioned the problem with the M4A2 are correct. It was a long bloody day and I screwed the pooch. My bad... I was not referring to the proper military names for the weapon. I was referring to the generation of receiver: i.e. A3's are flat-tops, A2's have handles but improved sight etc... I thought that would be easier for the casual observer to understand. To an outsider saying that a flat top M4 is an A1 while a full sized M-16 A1 has the old sight and a handle can get confusing...
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 11:06:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By krazy_karl: A close friend of mine just got back from Iraq. He is assigned to the 82nd HQ. His weapon was the SAW and he did not mention any M14. He didn't really know what the forward troops were issued (assuming M4). Karl
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Really? This is a big change as most people really do not want to tote the Pig.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 11:27:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2003 11:28:49 AM EDT by Cardinal]
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Personal weapons: M4A2's (majority of M4's are A2's) M4A3's (more and more out there all the time)
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You mean the M4 and M4A1 I take it? Or has the US military recently adopted new versions? (which I find unlikely)
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 11:42:12 AM EDT
M4A2? What the hell is that? Almost all of the M4s have detachable hand guards. 3rd ID went over with M16A4s, as did a lot of other units. The M16A3 is the full auto M16 with heavy barrel? Very rare. Methinks your nomenclature is screwed up. SAW as weapon of choice? There have been a lot of malfunctions with SAWs. They are wearing out fast. (Military never believes weapons wear out, but they do) Ran my M4 dry when we did any desert training and never had a problem. I did get some teflon dry lube (hoppes stuff) when I was on orders to go. Orders got pulled and didn't get a chance to try it. Worked fine on the qual range, though.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 12:45:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2003 12:48:24 PM EDT by alive45acp]
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: The on-going problem of the US Military NOT rotating out worn magazines.... I have no doubt there are guys running around over there with mags in their web gear that have dented and cracked feed lips.
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A weak mag spring can also cause double feeds and the story about rifles jamming in action (the Jessica Lynch story) seems to be mostly double feeds. I read in another AAR that the M-9 magazines have springs that are over used and that brass recommended only loading 10rds in the 15 round mags to improve functioning. I used to oil the crap out of my rifles as my WW2 vetran grandfather had taught me, but with my AR I found that no oil works best. A liberal coating of CLP, Hoppes or Tetra just made the carbon stick to the bolt locking lugs and become a sludge. If I shoot it when well oiled long enough I can actually feel it start to cycle slower. I'm sure the problem is much worse with fine sand. Now I only use a slight amount of oil on the bolt carrier rails and it seems to work well and cleaning is easier. My friend is working his way into SF and recently attending Army SCUBA school. I asked him how they can swim with an M-4 under water, drag into onto a beach and expect it to work and he told me that they were taught to keep their rifles oil free. I think he said the instructors gave the Israilis credit for doing this first. He told me that AR family of rifles work just fine dry and that the IDF has been doing like that for years now. I've started doing it and haven't notice any excess wear and tear yet on my Bushy. -LG [edit for spelling]
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 1:20:27 PM EDT
It seems to me that those M-14s are official ARMY issues. Noticed the select fire switch on them? Those switches are conspicously absent from civilian M-14 (M-1A1).
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 1:27:07 PM EDT
John, He had his highest qualification with the belt fed auto and is also a fairly big guy. I think it was the m-249. Karl
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 4:32:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By model927: I hears most of the 82cnd Airborne division deployed with the M14,is this true?if so it would explain why you dont see a lot of pictures of troopers carrying the rifle,Maybe the brass dosent want to convey the Idea that our armed forces need a variety of weapons to choose from,Im a die hard AR guy but its good to see the rifle still in service after 46 years of use.Seals carried them in the first gulf war and still do here and there,and back in the first gulf war the marine expeditionary force marines requested them but the request was derailed.
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AFAIK the M14 is being issued as a DMR at the squad level in the 101st and 82nd.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 5:02:24 PM EDT
Put a little sand in the buffer tube and see if your AR15 malfunctions. I once had a tiny piece of metal particle that got between the buffer and the tube and my AR15 wouldn't cycle.
Link Posted: 8/11/2003 9:57:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777: Personal weapons: You will find a mix of -- M16A2's (majority of troops carry this weapon) M4A2's (majority of M4's are A2's) M4A3's (more and more out there all the time) M16A1's (seen a couple in pics) M-14's (popping up mostly in specops or frontline units) M249's M60's (seen a couple of these in pics too) 1911 pistols M9's MP5's (Mostly of the Navy config, but several SD's as well) Barret .50's Remington 700s McMillan .50's (a few) The M-14's are being used as a standard MBR, and as a sniper rifle as the pics above show. That new M-14 stock is uber-snazzy, aint it? I sorta dig it....
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Standard Rifle for the Army is either the M16A2 or the M16A4. The M16A1 and M16A3 (A2 with full auto, fixed handle)are out there but in very small numbers. Standard pistol is the M9 and M11 (Sig 228, limited standard). Only SOF uses the 45s. Standard Sniper rifle is the Remington M24. M14s use is limited. SOF has a bunch of SPRs, SR-25s, etc. Heavy Sniper Rifle is either the Barrett M82 or Barrett XM107. Standard Machine Guns are the M240 (US version of the MAG58), M60, M249, M2 and Mk19. Again this list is for US Army weapons, not other services for they have different nomacatures. ie Mks (NAVY) and GAU/GUU (USAF). DE OPPRESSO LIBER
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 12:07:40 AM EDT
I was watching FOX news the other day and saw some Army guys, unsure what unit, who were searching a vehicle along with some Iraqis, and a few of them were carrying AK's. The Iraqi's also had AK's.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 12:52:46 AM EDT
In this type of dusty environment, I wonder, has anyone tried a dry lubricant? Like graphite? I used to use a PTFE in alcohol solution in bearings on my RC cars when I raced them... the alcohol made it easy to apply the lube to everything, and it quickly evaporated leaving just the teflon on everything it touched. So long as you kept the dust off for the 2 minutes that it took to dry, you wouldn't have to worry about the stuff attracting more dirt. I'm really surprised that we haven't heard of at least someone experimenting with this kind of lube.
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 6:06:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunbert: In this type of dusty environment, I wonder, has anyone tried a dry lubricant?
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Plenty of Marines used graphite. The weapons functioned well and did not attract as much sand as those that were lubed with CLP. Even those M16's that were never lubed functioned well...Personally, I used no lube at all on mine and it functioned flawlessly (assuming one brushes out the sand at least twice daily).
Link Posted: 8/12/2003 7:20:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2003 7:21:29 PM EDT by ColtM4]
Notice how close that soldiers eye is to the ACOG , ACOG while a great scope has no damn eye relief.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:05:28 AM EDT
I just read an article (either in SOF magazine or Small Arms Review) about an SF team that says they used gallons of CLP, but that was only on the M2HB I think. I use dry lubricant on those guns I know will rapidly get dirty (like an M11 with a .22lr conversion kit). I also have to use it sometimes on other rifles and pistols in the winter here as it can get down to -50degF when many lubricants will freeze. The ultimate is a teflon impregnated nickel or similar. I have a few pistols with Robar's NP3 (an electroles (sp?) nickel with teflon), and they run best without any lube at all cause it's in the finish. Doesn't Colt and Bushmaster finish their receivers with a baked on dry lube film on the insides of the uppers?
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 5:53:42 AM EDT
Notice how close that soldiers eye is to the ACOG , ACOG while a great scope has no damn eye relief.
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The TA11 ACOG being shown in that picture is 2.4" to ideal eye relief and can still be used out to about 4". I have the same model on my AR15 and can use it easily even with it mounted on the front of the receiver (nose to charging handle hold): [img]http://www.ont.com/users/kolya/AR15/AR15_2.jpg[/img] I think this is probably more a case of the soldier doesn't know how to use his equipment than it is a case of the ACOG has bad eye relief. Hell, on my own TA11 you would too close with your eye positioned like his and it would look about the same as it does at 4.5".
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 6:18:12 AM EDT
Agree with BR on the eye relief. Never had any shortness with issued ACOG scopes. Always thought of operator error when I see that photo. Reminds of when the M4 first came out and the Army showed photos of support personnel qualifing with the stock totally collasped.[] Need to clarify an earlier statement of mine and that's reference to the 45s used by Army SOF. Model 1911A1s.
Link Posted: 8/14/2003 7:57:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2003 8:27:42 AM EDT by James_Gang]
The 101st deployed with the M-14 at the squad level, the 82nd deployed with the M-4 A-1. The M-14 is used for its ability to offer suppresive fire, and good terminal ballistics at longer ranges. The reports from Iraq state that the M-4 is an excellent weapon and highly valued over the M-16 A-2, as is the .223 round. But in Afghanistan particularly and in the desert the extra range afforded by the M-14(.308) is appreciated. I think certain units are now deploying with a couple of M-14 gunners per squad for this very purpose. But the M-4 still takes the award at the 0-300 yard range and in close quarters. This is where most squad level infantry combat takes place. You can learn more here; [url]http://www.sftt.org/article06102003a.html[/url] [url]http://www.sftt.org/PDF/article05122003a.pdf[/url]
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