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Posted: 8/6/2003 7:41:58 AM EDT
Has anyone seen the latest Special Weapons for Law Enforcement, 2003 LE Equipment Buyer's Guide? On Page 33 there's an ad for www.tactical-weapons.com under the Coming Soon! section for a Belt Fed Upper for M16's in both 7.62x39mm and .223. Does anyone know about this upper assembly? That would be awesome to have a belt fed upper in 7.62x39mm. I wonder if it's going to have a similar design to the fictitious Shrike or will it have the improve feed device like the Stoner 86 LMG?

Why do I have the feeling that the Tactical Weapons upper will be available before the Shrike? ARES should learn from their mistakes, "Supply and Demand" ARES made a demand, but can't supply it. Now someone else has stepped up to the plate.

ls
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 7:48:31 AM EDT
"Tactical Weapons" = Special Weapons, and everybody's friend Todd Bailey. So don't hold your breath for that one...
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 7:56:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LordStoner: Has anyone seen the latest Special Weapons for Law Enforcement, 2003 LE Equipment Buyer's Guide? On Page 33 there's an ad for [url]www.tactical-weapons.com[/url] under the [i]Coming Soon![/i] section for a Belt Fed Upper for M16's in both 7.62x39mm and .223. Does anyone know about this upper assembly? That would be awesome to have a belt fed upper in 7.62x39mm. I wonder if it's going to have a similar design to the fictitious Shrike or will it have the improve feed device like the Stoner 86 LMG? Why do I have the feeling that the Tactical Weapons upper will be available before the Shrike? ARES should learn from their mistakes, "Supply and Demand" ARES made a demand, but can't supply it. Now someone else has stepped up to the plate. ls
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Todd Bailey of Special Weapons. You either love him or hate him. I think the belt-fed project was cancelled or back-burnered. Go to www.hk54.com for more details.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 8:22:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RenegadeX: Todd Bailey of Special Weapons. You either love him or hate him. I think the belt-fed project was cancelled or back-burnered. Go to www.hk54.com for more details.
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I tried to go to www.hk54.com, but no go. Oh well, I got my hopes up high, I was looking to pull my money from ARES and put it towards something that might have a chance. We'll have to wait and see. ls
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 8:35:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2003 8:38:28 AM EDT by SMGLee]
I have a SL8 converted to SL36 with Todd's stuff. It is a fine working gun but I will not trust my life with it. LordStoner, Wait for the ARES, just give them some more time. I spoke to an highly informed independent person from the industry NOT affiliated with ARES, he told me everything ARES is telling us is true, the sub contractors is screwing up the deal and he is working hard trying to fix all the problems. since some of the parts come from a certain source that failed to meet spec. Jeff have to find another source to take over the sub-production of some of those parts. and those parts will have to be tested fitted, and tested again. Give ARES sometime, you will not regret the end product you will receive. My friend has been around this industry for a long time, he is so very impressed withthe ARES he told me to buy one asap, but I told him I already was on the pre-order list. I do how ever understand the thousand stuck at ARES and you feel hopeless. I know the feeling, I am just like you , waiting for that CD to arrive. Maybe ARES will kick in the rail handguard for those of us faithfuls. [:)]
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 8:39:41 AM EDT
When ARES began to advertise on this board and asked for a large deposit, I posted and more than once that ARES was using our members to raise working capital for their project. Using the public to fund a project without proper notification of that fact is just plain wrong.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 8:44:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2003 8:45:05 AM EDT by greco]
Belt fed UPPER??? Every belt fed gun I have seen utilizes the reciever to feed the mechanism. Why couldn't you use any old upper for it...after all the cartridges come up from the bottom to feed. That's the way the H&K conversions have worked. Anybody got a link or a pix of this thing..??
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 8:48:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: When ARES began to advertise on this board and asked for a large deposit, I posted and more than once that ARES was using our members to raise working capital for their project. Using the public to fund a project without proper notification of that fact is just plain wrong.
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I agree. If your using deposits to finance a project say so. I'll consider a product when it's ready to ship or at least has a sales/customer support history. The Shrike may be a great product, but don't use buyers to finace it. It's bad business practice. The folks who put up money have a right to be annoyed.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 8:52:01 AM EDT
Lee- Yes, you're probably right. I just wait. I wish I could collect interest on that money while it's sitting. With all the deposits that ARES received, he probably has collected pretty good interest. I'll repeat myself, I would look to have an upper that shoot 7.62x39. Who knows, I may buy both, if both are available. ls
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:08:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2003 9:15:31 AM EDT by QCMGR]
Originally Posted By SMGLee: ....Wait for the ARES, just give them some more time. I spoke to an highly informed independent person from the industry NOT affiliated with ARES, he told me everything ARES is telling us is true, the sub contractors is screwing up the deal and he is working hard trying to fix all the problems.
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I tell you what. That is bullshit! In the time they have had you could design and build a f-cking car. Hell the P-51 went from blank paper to production in less time. Blaming your suppliers = mismanagement of a program. If they were up front, they would publish a timeline and promise date. If they can't manage a production program, how are they going to manage warranty!
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:12:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By SMGLee: ....Wait for the ARES, just give them some more time. I spoke to an highly informed independent person from the industry NOT affiliated with ARES, he told me everything ARES is telling us is true, the sub contractors is screwing up the deal and he is working hard trying to fix all the problems.
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I tell you what. That is bullshit! In the time they have had you could design a build a f-cking car. Hell the P-51 went from blank paper to production in less time. Blaming your suppliers = mismanagement of a program. If they were up front, they would publish a timeline and promise date. If they can't manage a production program, how are they going to manage warranty!
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I don't know exactly why this deal bothered me so much but IIRC, I believe ARES had either two or three employees when I tried to check them out. I suppose the same "sub contractors" will also be responsible for the warranty. Anyone remember when this........'product' was supposed to ship ??
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:14:31 AM EDT
QC, I know this is a problem, I am not defending ARES, because I have my money in the pit too. Like my last paragraoh said, I am not pleased with the delay, but I do urge the people with the deposit to wait it out, in the end the product will be an awesome add on to any AR.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:18:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SMGLee: QC, I know this is a problem, I am not defending ARES, because I have my money in the pit too. Like my last paragraoh said, I am not pleased with the delay, but I do urge the people with the deposit to wait it out, in the end the product will be an awesome add on to any AR.
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SMGLee, you have exquisite tastes in weapons and are a very knowledgeable poster of facts, however, there is absolutely no guarantee there will be a product and if there is a product how well will it work ? Or will it work at all ?? What company with adequate financial resources will back the warranty ?? This deal stunk to the heavens from day one.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:20:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:22:13 AM EDT
5, Thanks for the kind words. You might be absolutely correct, but since I got myself on this boat, I guess I will stick it out. From what I hear the end product will be a quality piece. I just hope the person is right... You are almost up to 10,000 post.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:29:49 AM EDT
Good looking full page add in the new Shotgun news. One of you that has some money in that pit might want me to buy you out of it? Make an offer.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:32:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SMGLee: 5, Thanks for the kind words. You might be absolutely correct, but since I got myself on this boat, I guess I will stick it out. From what I hear the end product will be a quality piece. I just hope the person is right... You are almost up to 10,000 post.
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SMG, you're right about nearly 10,000 posts and I believe I'll be successful in reaching 10,000 while having posted absolutely NOTHING of Value !! ----------------------------------------------- Please let me add that I'm not beating on members for participating in this ARES deal. I am KICKING my own sorry ass for not trying harder to have the ARES public offering* removed from the board in its' early days. (I did make an attempt to have it removed but should have been more insistent.) *Basically what ARES did was raise capital without an SEC approved offering memorandum. If such an offering had been SEC approved there would have been a 'use of proceeds' section detailing the use of the capital as well as a 'risks' section detailing the risks involved in investing in such a venture. Have no doubt; all who put down deposits were INVESTORS. In this deal our members made the investment, took the risks but have absolutely no up-side potential save the possibility of getting a working product. [b]I should have tried harder to have ARES run off the board because I certainly understood what ARES was doing.[/b]
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:32:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2003 9:34:46 AM EDT by QCMGR]
Originally Posted By SMGLee: QC, I know this is a problem, I am not defending ARES, because I have my money in the pit too. Like my last paragraoh said, I am not pleased with the delay, but I do urge the people with the deposit to wait it out, in the end the product will be an awesome add on to any AR.
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From their web page:
Ares Defense Systems, Inc. is experiencing some delivery delays with the Shrike 5.56™ program.
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And you did not plan for this?
Some components that have been out-sourced to contract-vendors have still not been received.
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Why? Is it a delivery or engineering issue. How do you manage your vendors?
Once the missing components are received, they must be inspected and meet or exceed our quality-control standards.
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So you are not even sure the suppliers have capable processes. I would not accept a part unless it was good.
Upon being approved by our QA personnel, the product must still undergo final assembly, inspection, test-firing, final inspection and packaging before the units can begin shipping to customers.
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How long can that be? A few hours tops?
We will modify the delivery schedule appearing on this page in 30 day increments, until such time as units are ready for shipment.
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Gee...thanks?
We regret that we cannot provide our customers with a more definitive delivery date at this time,
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Why not? This scares the hell out of me. I do not think they can build it.
but Ares Defense Systems, Inc. continues to operate on behalf of and to the full benefit of our customer's interests.
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How? They have not fulfilled their obligation.
Thank you for your continued patience and support.
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[:(]
Deliveries Scheduled to Begin March 01, 2003: Estimated [size=6]180 day delay[/size=6] Deliveries Scheduled to Begin August 01, 2003: Estimated [size=6]30 day delay[/size=6]
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220 days behind. Something is not right. You do not have to eat a whole egg to know it is rotten.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:38:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By SMGLee: QC, I know this is a problem, I am not defending ARES, because I have my money in the pit too. Like my last paragraoh said, I am not pleased with the delay, but I do urge the people with the deposit to wait it out, in the end the product will be an awesome add on to any AR.
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From their web page:
Ares Defense Systems, Inc. is experiencing some delivery delays with the Shrike 5.56™ program.
View Quote
And you did not plan for this?
Some components that have been out-sourced to contract-vendors have still not been received.
View Quote
Why? Is it a delivery or engineering issue. How do you manage your vendors?
Once the missing components are received, they must be inspected and meet or exceed our quality-control standards.
View Quote
So you are not even sure the suppliers have capable processes. I would not accept a part unless it was good.
Upon being approved by our QA personnel, the product must still undergo final assembly, inspection, test-firing, final inspection and packaging before the units can begin shipping to customers.
View Quote
How long can that be? A few hours tops?
We will modify the delivery schedule appearing on this page in 30 day increments, until such time as units are ready for shipment.
View Quote
Gee...thanks?
We regret that we cannot provide our customers with a more definitive delivery date at this time,
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Why not? This scares the hell out of me. I do not think they can build it.
but Ares Defense Systems, Inc. continues to operate on behalf of and to the full benefit of our customer's interests.
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How? They have not fulfilled their obligation.
Thank you for your continued patience and support.
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[:(]
Deliveries Scheduled to Begin March 01, 2003: Estimated [size=6]180 day delay[/size=6] Deliveries Scheduled to Begin August 01, 2003: Estimated [size=6]30 day delay[/size=6]
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220 days behind. Something is not right. You do not have to eat a whole egg to know it is rotten.
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QCMGR, And what is your point?? we all know the situation. Since I fighure you did not have your cash in the egg, what is it to you?? I should be the one complaining.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 9:52:23 AM EDT
SMGLee, I suspect QCMGR (Quality Control Manager) is posting for the same reason I am - we both are Mods and both care about AR15.com and its' members. Please let me say I've invested in worse deals than ARES (I once invested $250,000 in a Video Juke Box deal !!) but I did have a proper offering memorandum that gave me the correct information about the investment. ARES had no such memorandum. [b]WERE I an ARES investor, I would draw a line in the sand with a date-certain of when I was supposed to receive my product. When that date passed with no product I would go to each investor and ask for (X) dollars, carefully choose an attorney, have that attorney certify a class and begin a class-action suit.[/b] When it comes to money I can be (and have been) a vicious son-of-a-bitch. I would find the person that brought this mess to the board (If not ARES) and I would also bring suit against that person or persons. Now what I would actually want to accomplish here is to get that person/s under oath in a deposition and find out what tie, if any, there was to ARES. If there was financial remuneration, I would continue that suit. If not drop it. I hope the ARES people are reading this board.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 10:06:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: SMGLee, I suspect QCMGR (Quality Control Manager) is posting for the same reason I am - we both are Mods and both care about AR15.com and its' members.
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I could not have said it better. I make things, evaluate things people make and make sure what the said they can make is what they are making. Yes SMG, you should be pissed. My gut feeling is they can make a few in a tool shop but they cannot manufacture them in an assembly process. If I were you I would want to know why they are 220 days past due. They say:
We regret that we cannot provide our customers with a more definitive delivery date at this time
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Why can't they? If I went to one of my suppliers I would expect they would be intimately knowledgeable about this issue. If they were managing it properly they should be able to explain the issue. How many 30 day past dues does it take before they throw in the towel?
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 11:06:51 AM EDT
Hey QCMGR- I totally agree with you. I've worked in the manufacturing, especially machine shops, for more then 15-years. Yes, it's not hard to make a prototype in the model shop and make it run. I'm actually nervous about the design of the Shrike. I've talked with the designer about his invention and I got the feeling that he's re-inventing the wheel, without knowing firearm history/design. I noticed in the articles relating to the Shrike, they never show it fieldstripped. I wonder why? Is it a bitch to disassemble? Are the tons of small parts, which can break or be lost? I have a bad feeling that the production pieces are going to malfunction and the company will jump ship when returns are higher then units going out the door. Just call me paranoid. ls
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 11:14:07 AM EDT
Exactly how culpable is a LLC? I understand that Ares premises is on restricted gov't property. Given this, how much red ink might be involved just in serving legal notice, if need be? I hope this all blows over & Ares comes through w/ a final product. Even then, it better perform impressively & reliably, & be supported by customer service of equal merit. Throwing in a few extra "goodies" for loyal holdout customers like SMGLee wouldn't hurt, either. OTOH, if it goes belly up, some new board rules governing solicitation may be in order.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 11:30:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster: Exactly how culpable is a LLC? I understand that Ares premises is on restricted gov't property. Given this, how much red ink might be involved just in serving legal notice, if need be? I hope this all blows over & Ares comes through w/ a final product. Even then, it better perform impressively & reliably, & be supported by customer service of equal merit. Throwing in a few extra "goodies" for loyal holdout customers like SMGLee wouldn't hurt, either. OTOH, if it goes belly up, some new board rules governing solicitation may be in order.
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Little problem in serving legal notice. However, if ARES has dotted the 'i's' and crossed ALL the 't's' their liability is limited the assets of the LLC. Of course a good attorney will work hard to pierce that veil and, if successful, go after the assets of the officers and directors. I too am hopeful that all works out and a working product is delivered. I care nothing for ARES but do care deeply about AR15.com's members. Finally as to your point about new board rules - I agree. [b]This ARES thing was NEVER anything but a thinly veiled scheme to raise venture capital. And without having to give up equity at that.[/b] (ARES..........something makes me wonder if these same people own the patents to the Stoner 86 machine gun ??? NOW that would be an interesting asset.)
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 11:44:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2003 12:13:23 PM EDT by LordStoner]
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: (ARES..........something makes me wonder if these same people own the patents to the Stoner 86 machine gun ??? NOW that would be an interesting asset.)
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No, the original ARES Inc., of Port Clinton, OH., including the name ceased to exist after Gene Stoner left the corporation. The rights to the Stoner 86 LMG is currently owned and was slightly redesigned by Knight's and is currently renamed as the Stoner 96 LMG. The name is similar, but not exact. ls
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 11:54:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LordStoner:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: (ARES..........something makes me wonder if these same people own the patents to the Stoner 86 machine gun ??? NOW that would be an interesting asset.)
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No, the original ARES Corp, of Port Clinton, Mich., including the name ceased to exist after Gene Stoner left the corporation. The rights to the Stoner 86 LMG is currently owned and was slightly redesigned by Knight's and is currently renamed as the Stoner 96 LMG. The name is similar, but not exact. ls
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Understand - it makes sense that KAC would own that patent.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 12:24:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2003 12:25:21 PM EDT by LordStoner]
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: Understand - it makes sense that KAC would own that patent.
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I was off on the state, it was actually Ohio. If your curious here's the link to the Stoner 86 Patent: [url=http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US004942802&PageNum=1&&IDKey=23FFEE445125&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526p=1%2526u=/netahtml/search-bool.html%2526r=8%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526co1=AND%2526d=ptxt%2526s1=ARES%2526s2=Stoner%2526OS=ARES%252BAND%252BStoner%2526RS=ARES%252BAND%252BStoner]ARES LMG Patent[/url]. ls
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 12:48:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LordStoner:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: Understand - it makes sense that KAC would own that patent.
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I was off on the state, it was actually Ohio. If your curious here's the link to the Stoner 86 Patent: [url=http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US004942802&PageNum=1&&IDKey=23FFEE445125&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526p=1%2526u=/netahtml/search-bool.html%2526r=8%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526co1=AND%2526d=ptxt%2526s1=ARES%2526s2=Stoner%2526OS=ARES%252BAND%252BStoner%2526RS=ARES%252BAND%252BStoner]ARES LMG Patent[/url]. ls
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Got it and thanks !
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 3:21:25 PM EDT
Worst-Case Scenario: Congress is going to make it illegal before it ever gets to market. Then they go out of business (no potential customers), and nobody gets their money back, since they used it to fund development. Sux.
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 4:00:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LordStoner: Hey QCMGR- I totally agree with you. I've worked in the manufacturing, especially machine shops, for more then 15-years. Yes, it's not hard to make a prototype in the model shop and make it run. I'm actually nervous about the design of the Shrike. I've talked with the designer about his invention and I got the feeling that he's re-inventing the wheel, without knowing firearm history/design. I noticed in the articles relating to the Shrike, they never show it fieldstripped. I wonder why? Is it a bitch to disassemble? Are the tons of small parts, which can break or be lost? I have a bad feeling that the production pieces are going to malfunction and the company will jump ship when returns are higher then units going out the door. Just call me paranoid. ls
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Question, does anyone have any idea of how many of these may have been ordered? The reason I ask, and I know this is apples and oranges, is that I know any automobile launch can be delayed significantly by problems with vender parts. Now, before anyone says anything, we aren't talking the same volume with the shrike. But if they have orders for 10, I see no reason for a delay unless the design itself sucks, or upper receivers they are reciving are unusable. They should be able to easily machine any other part, and I'm sure doing those few uppers shouldn't be too much more of a challenge. OR, Is it possible ares ran out of money and the supplier won't release the parts until they receive funds? Just some questions that popped into my head. I'm sure it's a complicated piece of machinery. I don't know anything about belt-fed MGs except that the ammunition is belt-fed into the MG. But, it does seem like an awful complicated process to perform in such a small space as the upper receiver on an AR. No matter how much they have enlarged it, they still have some base dimensions that they have to stick to. Anyone know how complicated a M-249 or Stoner is?
Link Posted: 8/6/2003 5:32:00 PM EDT
Guys, We are all on the same side here. I also have a grand with Ares. I do not regret it yet. I believe they will deliver the product. having worked in hitech for years, and seeing delivery dates slip on a regular basis from reliable vendors, I am not concerned yet with the failure to deliver now. I can easily see a development like this delayed 6-12 months by a single vendor screwing the pooch. They have to begin again the process of selecting a vendor who can manufacture the part within specs, test samples, and negotiate deals again. It takes time. While it would be nice if they had second sourced everything, my guess is they have never managed a project this scale before and the thing took them by surprise. If they have nothing delivered by March of next year, then I will be concerned that they failed in their attempt. I'm bettin by March 04 all of us are gonna be crowing how cool a Shrike on a M16 lower is.
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