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Posted: 8/1/2003 6:23:39 PM EDT
Ok guys, I'm having doubts. I love my rifle and I want to do a lot of stuff to it but now I don't know if it's the way I want to go. I've had a SKS Paratrooper that shot supurbly. Not one thing wrong with it. The AR functions flawlessly and is accurate to all get out, but I don't know if the round is what I'm looking for. And I don't have the cash to get an AR10. Will someone please rid me of these doubts.


Ron
Link Posted: 8/1/2003 6:34:07 PM EDT
Well I may get flamed here, I hated the trigger pull on most of the SKS I ever shot. The 7.62*39 round has about the same specs as a 30-30 round. The 5.56 has a a longer range, but the bullet weighs less. But then again, I don't know what you are looking for. For ground hogs, or those pesky clay pigeons the 5.56 is good. However, I would not hunt deer size game with it. As for Self defense, the 5.56 is perfect IMHO.
Link Posted: 8/1/2003 6:35:31 PM EDT
It works. Satisfied users include: US Army (includes Ranger and SF units) US Navy (includes SEAL teams) USAF (includes para rescue) USMC (includes Force recon) SAS IDF To name but a very few...
Link Posted: 8/1/2003 6:53:09 PM EDT
I know it works but I've heard stories of the round not stopping adversaries in one shot, granted placement is key but I want my rifle like my Blazer. I can do pretty much anything in it and not worry about wether or not it will get the job done. Though I've just remembered about the 7.62X39 uppers out there but then again....I like both but I need something thats gonna work without thinking about it. I think, I get into trouble... Ron
Link Posted: 8/1/2003 7:38:54 PM EDT
You are right, No matter what caliber sometimes you will need a second or third shot to stop the attacker. Sometimes you deliever a fatal shot to an attacker, but he still charges and may have enough left in him to deliever a fatal shot your way. Shot placement is crucial, but with the low recoil with 5.56, you can get back on target quickly and deliever a follow up shot. IMHO 5.56 HPs have less chance of over penitration than the cheap import 7.62*39 HPs that have heavy jackets. Twenty years ago the 5.56 was not considered usuable in Urban areas because of the fear of over penitration by a lot of Police agencies. Now they are rethinking and starting to reissue 5.56 weapons. A good sixteen inch barrel AR should take care of most self defense work. The AR-10 with the recoil and over penitration would be a terrible CQC self defense weapon.
Link Posted: 8/1/2003 7:49:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/1/2003 9:25:58 PM EDT
Ghost- No worries, really. Life is too short to not try new things when you're not happy. Go with your instincts, and move on to the next thing. You can always get another AR. You should be able to sell it easily enough- I looked for a couple of months for a decent deal on an AR before I went out (today) and purchased a new Bushy. Just my view, nothing more. Cheers- Neil.
Link Posted: 8/1/2003 10:12:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2003 10:15:27 PM EDT by Detlef]
When it comes down to 7.62x39 vs. 5.56x45, the 5.56 will be superior in almost every category. Penetration may be lacking with M193 ammo when compared to 7.62x39. SS109 should solve that. Any .223 or 5.56 ammo has adequate penetration to take out whatever you are wanting to kill. Just don't count on shooting through steel plate or engine blocks! The only situation where 7.62x39 might be better is in dense jungle fighting. Even then, the best way to bust brush is to avoid it alltogether by shooting through a gap, so the 5.56 is better in that respect. The only advantage 7.63x39 has over the 5.56 is price. Price is not relevant when your life is on the line. The 5.56 will mess you up a whole lot better than the 7.62x39. Never underestimate the power of high velocity. Magical things happen when bullets go over 2,000 miles per hour at muzzle. My one-armed neighbor hunts deer exclusively with a .223 Rem Ruger. Trust me, the round is adequate.
Link Posted: 8/1/2003 11:40:09 PM EDT
My old Sgt. has hunted deer with his AR since 94. He has gotten one every year. To date he as never had a failure to stop with one shot. Our SWAT team just sold off all of their MP5's and went to the M4 for all SWAT ops including entries. Personaly I like the 55 grain soft point. They damage they do is impressive. With the Black Hills 77 grain rounds coming out for the 5.56 I just do not see any advantages that the 7.62X39 has over the 5.56. Other than the price of ammo.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 5:17:43 AM EDT
Our Team prefered the 40 gr. round. Over penetration was NEVER a problem. Stopping power wise, we planted everyone we shot (I retired so I don't know if that record stands). Personally, with the advent of the evolving design technology of the M-4, I think the venerable MP-5 is quickly becoming a dinosaur. Flame me if you want, but I sold mine. I don't want to go into a fight with a 9mm ANYTHING if I can help it. I don't even think HRT us using the MP all that much anymore. And their's are 10mm. Oh ya. And yes, .223's kill deer just fine.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 8:53:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Detlef: The only advantage 7.63x39 has over the 5.56 is price. Price is not relevant when your life is on the line. The 5.56 will mess you up a whole lot better than the 7.62x39. Never underestimate the power of high velocity. Magical things happen when bullets go over [red]2,000 miles[/red] per hour at muzzle.
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I agree in all but how do you come the the 2000 miles per hrs. at muzzle numbers. GhostFlyer: perhaps if you consider replacing your barrel for a faster rifling, say 1x7 you can shoot heavier bullets and gain more momentum and will put your concerns aside.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 9:18:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Black_Rifle:
Originally Posted By Detlef: The only advantage 7.63x39 has over the 5.56 is price. Price is not relevant when your life is on the line. The 5.56 will mess you up a whole lot better than the 7.62x39. Never underestimate the power of high velocity. Magical things happen when bullets go over [red]2,000 miles[/red] per hour at muzzle.
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I agree in all but how do you come the the 2000 miles per hrs. at muzzle numbers.
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3300 fps *3600 sec/hr / 5280 ft/mi = 2250 MPH. Zippy.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 9:45:12 AM EDT
Hey guys, thanks for the input. I think I'm gonna keep it and do the stuff I want to it. Thanks again for everything. Ron
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 2:18:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GhostFlyer: Ok guys, I'm having doubts. I love my rifle and I want to do a lot of stuff to it but now I don't know if it's the way I want to go. I've had a SKS Paratrooper that shot supurbly. Not one thing wrong with it. The AR functions flawlessly and is accurate to all get out, but I don't know if the round is what I'm looking for. And I don't have the cash to get an AR10. Will someone please rid me of these doubts. Ron
View Quote
The Isreali Galil is generally considered the best of the 7.62, gas piston weapons. The IDF wharehoused tens of thousounds of Galil's and issued their troops the 5.56 M16 and M4. This was a decision made by people who live in combat situations everyday.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 2:34:53 PM EDT
To all, Just a thought... At civilian engagement ranges, in fact most LE engagement ranges, the 5.56x45mm cartridge is superb at stopping/neutralizing a threat. At our ranges, generally close in, tremendous velocity/good fragmenting, most any ammo/barrel length/twist rate combo. Should youre enemy be out further, you have no "self defense" shot, lacking a threat of imminent danger. Now granted should you be returning from the field, when you happen to spie an attacker assaulting your family, and you choose to take the long shot, well then it will matter. Outside a scenario such as that our defensive shots will be taken close enough in for the varying combo's to not depend on the outside parameters of their effectiveness. If a police DM/CS/TI then perhaps, bbl length ammo, and twist rate combo's will weigh heavily on decisions. If building a do everything rifle, you'll need it too. But, from a 14.5" in a defensive role, your enemies got little hope, w/ any ammo choice.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 3:55:00 PM EDT
Zardoz, Don't forget every police dept. in the country as well as every S.W.A.T. uses AR's
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